I know that PL twinskins have auto zenith, but do LEI's have that too?

No not really

Although some do claim it. I think even Flysurfer uses that term don't they?

Either way - if you've never experienced the auto-zenith first hand you may be led to believe that others have some semblance of it but really, I think arcs are one of the only power kites you can "trust" eyes off (not that you should do that......but you know what I mean).

Bail a trick, blow a jump, lose your footing........just let go of the bar and when you come to a stop look up 'cuz that's where the kite will be...waiting patiently (sometimes mockingly) for you to shake it off and try again.

preach to the faithful for I am a believer...lol

hehehehe

It's a beautiful thing, ain't it? Still haven't quite got used to the amount of wind you can put these things up in but hoping for big things once the snow flies here. We'll have to hit Slave Lake this winter maybe - we have access to a cabin in Kinuso which is on a leeward shore in NW winds. Damn near kite to the door. Just build up speed and autozenith before you get to the road so you clear the trees

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Originally posted by macboy Bail a trick, blow a jump, lose your footing........just let go of the bar and when you come to a stop look up 'cuz that's where the kite will be...waiting patiently (sometimes mockingly) for you to shake it off and try again.

very true!
over the weekend in our muddy park eye witnesses saw me slide out from my landing. I flipped over forward on the board and slid on my back. The first thing I did was let go of the bar and worried more about my rolling / dragging backwards into a huge wet pond. I moved about 5 feet as the Syn was finding zenith but i felt safe the whole experience. Knowing that your kite will always head back up even with no hands, gives you some freedom to worry about other things.

it was a WET day.

But if you let go of everything with an LEI, will it just crash or kind of float and rise up?

Crash. It'll just keep going wherever it feels like.
Don't forget, arcs don't Hindenburg (stall) either ... well, not really - quick tug on the front lines keeps it real.
I recall a particularly fun afternoon spent under a 16m C-kite that nosedived 4 times on me then got trapped under the waves at the shore break. I ended up kicking and dragging it down the beach in a foul mood and giving up.

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Originally posted by Kamikuza Crash. It'll just keep going wherever it feels like. ...

This is absolutely correct. An LEI will almost always crash if you let go of it. The one exception being if you are flying unhooked and have a suicide leash setup. In that case, it might fly back towards zenith (seen this in some videos), but it isnt a gauranteed thing. Better to expect it to crash into the water, and hard...

If things go bad with an LEI you either let it crash, or grab the bar right in the middle and hold on until it goes back up to zenith. This is not a bad default position as it will typically keep the kite up in the air and heading towards zenith. But you have to have your hands right in the middle of the bar for this to work.

Cant wait to try the Guerilla 18m to do that...

A C kite will stayed powered untill it crashes, A bow will depower and head to the side of the window. Id much rather have i kite that crashes or depowers then one that stays powered and heads to zenith, draggin you the whole time till it gets there. Add on, that if your a bit overpowered you could be lofted.

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Originally posted by snobdr A C kite will stayed powered untill it crashes, A bow will depower and head to the side of the window. Id much rather have i kite that crashes or depowers then one that stays powered and heads to zenith, draggin you the whole time till it gets there. Add on, that if your a bit overpowered you could be lofted.

What kind of kite stays powered when you turn loose of the bar AND heads to zenith?

An Arc

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Originally posted by snobdr A C kite will stayed powered untill it crashes, A bow will depower and head to the side of the window.

I'm surprised you were the first to point this out. Modern bows will sit and bob at the edge on the window, de-powered and waiting for you. Guys on our beach will self launch and land all the time this way. Just put the chicken loop on a good anchor, set the kite on a wingtip at the edge of the window and leave it floating a foot or two off the ground while you walk leisurely back the the bar. Landing just as easy, in reverse.

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Id much rather have i kite that crashes or depowers then one that stays powered and heads to zenith, draggin you the whole time till it gets there. Add on, that if your a bit overpowered you could be lofted.

So wrong. Like your modern bow, let go and the ARC de-powers, but in this case slowly drifts to the zenith. If I let go of the bar with my ARCs at park-and-ride-speed in the buggy, it will de-power and drift up without swooping or lofting.

The only way the kite could stay powered or loft you is (possibly) if you had it way out proper trim in the first place.

Just ask any number of ARC fliers that tie the kite off to a log, trailer hitch, or fence-post while they go have lunch.

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Originally posted by acampbell Quote: Originally posted by snobdr Id much rather have i kite that crashes or depowers then one that stays powered and heads to zenith, draggin you the whole time till it gets there. Add on, that if your a bit overpowered you could be lofted. So wrong. Like your modern bow, let go and the ARC de-powers, but in this case slowly drifts to the zenith. If I let go of the bar with my ARCs at park-and-ride-speed in the buggy, it will de-power and drift up without swooping or lofting. The only way the kite could stay powered or loft you is (possibly) if you had it way out proper trim in the first place. Just ask any number of ARC fliers that tie the kite off to a log, trailer hitch, or fence-post while they go have lunch.

But it's not 100% depower!!! Only Hitler had that.

I hung onto a 16M scorp in decent winds, It would pick me up off the ground in gusts and it was in depowered position. They depower but not like a modern bow. There is still power in the kite. Ive seen vids of Carl getting dragged 30Ft or so after bailing. If you wipeout with the kite in the meat of the power zone with an arc you are getting dragged.

Snobdr, I dont think 5 min of experience you have any input in this conversation.You will not get tea baged with an arc like a lei! Just let go of the bar! I have 1000's of hr experience with arcs...............aj

In my first few sessions learning to kitesurf, I crashed myself many times and went completely under water in the process. Every time I would consciously push the bar away and when I floated back to the surface (stationary) the Synergy was sitting there waiting on me. My phantom is the same way. Not 100% depower of course, but not enough power to roll me faster than walking speed (on hard sand) in the buggy either. Getting dragged or lofted by a depowered arc would require a kite that is being used above its recommended wind range. I imagine the videos of Carl might have him in this situation and I would think he might take out a larger kite for conditions than your average non-company rider. Or possibly momentum of his body might be a factor.

Discussing this stuff with you snobdr is much like talking politics with friends and family that are further away from the aisle than I am on the other side. They take a telescopic view of a situation and expand it out as if its regular and common, when in fact its a pinpoint situation and not representative at all of what one would normally find or expect.

Yea your right AJ. I have no experence. The kite picking me off my feet must be from inexperence. Watching vids of carl getting dragged just must be i dont know what im looking at.

I was always taught to keep the kite low, launch grab your gear and get riding. Keeping the kite over your head was how you get lofted.
The arc dosent have the depower of a modern bow. Even with the kite depowered there is still the ability to loft. When you crash, the kite still has to fly to get to zenith, if you dumped it in the power zone its still there untill it flys out of it. Even with the bar out there is alot of power there.

Trim the kite right and trim the right kite.

There must be a forum somewhere that is biased towards inflatable kites.

The kitecat weight is 75 lbs! The kite is depowered and will stay at the zeinth till the wind drops below 7mph. ........aj

I flew Arcs for 6 years and it wasn't until bows that LEI's had as much depower as an Arc. I now fly SLE's and teach using bows. If you were getting dragged down the beach with an arc "fully depowered" then:

a. You had way too much kite in the air, or
b. Your kite wasn't trimmed to fully depower

Lofted no, but you will get dragged - especially if you crashed just as you were turning up from the down swing of a sine. If the kite's pointed to the zenith already it'll be pretty powered in transit - pretty sure that's how I got submarined but all the while I knew it would end and if not I was ready on the pin to cut loose.

here is something to add to the mix some lei(s) like the delta shaped ones now have "self / auto relaunch"

i've seen a bandit drift to the side of the window on its own and relaunch.

technology keeps getting better and safer. :wee:

***stated before I use no PL Safety only the Suicide Leash*** I've never had to pull the Red Hat or use the Bar Leash.

About being dragged,

Kahuna says it cant happen unless you have the wrong kite

Macboy says it can and does happen "thats how he got submarined"
BeamerBob also stated he crashed and "went completely under the water"
I also heard first hand from a kiter of this happening with arcs.

Who is right here?

I'd have to say (from my very limited experience) that if it's in the power zone you're likely to get dragged, but only for a very short period of time.

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Quote: Originally posted by power I know that PL twinskins have auto zenith, wind dependent only ..absolute quote]Originally posted by power but do LEI's have that too?

only in the hands of competent operator with aleast one hand, and one eye and appreciable mass and the absence of mind that PL ARCS exist

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About being dragged, Kahuna says it cant happen unless you have the wrong kite Macboy says it can and does happen "thats how he got submarined" BeamerBob also stated he crashed and "went completely under the water" I also heard first hand from a kiter of this happening with arcs. Who is right here?

You're misquoting me and we were talking about different things. Believe what you want.