I just had my first kiting lesson, not quite what I expected. I'm not sure what should be covered or taught, maybe I was expecting too much. I was wondering what you think should be covered in the first lesson?

Kite setup, maybe sum tuning, safety, wind window, pull left to turn left and right to go right, launching and landing from edge of window.

How far you progress in your 1st lesson depends a LOT on You and how the instructor feels You are progressing.

It should start with a talk on the wind and the wind window Setup and Packdown of a trainer kite. Flying the trainer and learning control. Set up and pack down of a depower kite. Discussion / instruction on depower fundamentals.

If you are a quick study it is hoped that you can get out on the water, fly the depower and get a taste for body dragging. You may or may not get in a self rescue lesson before body dragging depending on the instructor.

Some folks actaully get to board starts if they go in well prepared.

A poor wind day can screw it all up!

What was your lesson like ?

That all depends on how long your lesson is. What i covered is usually hour to an hour and a half. The next hour or 2 gets into what blade has covered.

Agreed,

One would hope to get to the point I say," if you are a quick study" in a 2 hour lesson starting fresh. To get much farther would indicate previous experience or that you are a natural. I got from zero to a couple of downwind body drag attempts in my 1st lesson. The instructor was generous with His time!

EVERYBODY learns at a different pace. The instructor can't move on until they are sure you have learned each step.

Hopefully you got an IKO card. This will show your next intructor you have completed certian levels. The typical set of lessons is 3 - 2 hour sessions but not everybody comes out at the same level. Most come out self confident and still struggling on the board after 3 lessons.

Bladunner, glad you asked. The lesson was about 2.5 hrs, done on land, nothing related to water was brought up.

Started with a 1.7m (I have my own 2m foil and got plenty of experience with that). Moved on to a 5 m with bar and then handles.

No talk about setup, safety or tuning. Also no talk about IKO card. Who can "issue" this and what is the benefit. I was also hoping for some advice on choosing a kite but I'm still not sure which one.

What is the "going" rate for a lesson?

Sounds like it was a waste of time to me that's what #@%$#!s me off about lessons - some people and places feel the need to "stick to the formula" when it's bloody obvious I can fly the ass off the kite and just need someone to get me up and riding and make sure I don't get hurt ... ah whoops

bribe fill in your "location" in your profile - that way we got a better idea of advice to give ...

Yea, I was thinking it was a waste of time, and money. I think I could have gotten the experience from a kite demo.

Where did you goto for the lesson? Was is going to be a land or water lesson? If you didnt have your questions answered i would go back and ask them.

I did a three day course that was much the same. "But but but I can fly a bloody 2-line kite already" and spent a day doing that
Got the Reb, taught myself on the land and finally had a lesson this year in the water.
Instructor got me to fly the kite and was like "Ok you can can fly fine, here's how you setup, take-off and land" then we got in the water and he let me practice water starts for a few hours ... that was day one IIRC.


Alberta ... haven't we got kiting-brothers-from-another-mothers up there?

The lesson was taught in a sports field. Not sure what technical questions I should have asked. I was more expecting the crucial information to be volunteered.

I knew how to fly a two line kite before the lesson. Maybe because of that it was assumed I knew more than I really do.

I thought / hoped after the lesson I would know what kite I should buy first but I still don't know. I guess I'm no further ahead today than I was yesterday, just a little lighter in the wallet

What are you planning to do with the kite?

Was he a certified kite instructor? Or just a guy from the local toy kite shop? If he is reputable kite instructor i would go back and ask him what you want to know. Kite sizeing questions, launching landing, stuff like that. If hes a salesman hell just try and sell you whats in the store and not really answer your questions. If thats the case let others know your wernt satisfied with him

What am I planning to do with the kite?
Hmm...boarding - snow, ATB, water and maybe buggy.

Was he a certified kite instructor?
I don't know. Really nice guy, did seem to know his stuff. I just thought I would learn more. We had good wind, maybe too much, I dont know.

I did ask for a suggestion on what kite to buy first (sizing) but I guess that isn't allways an easy question to answer.

He's a good guy, maybe just more of a demo frame of mind than a lesson frame of mind? Sorry to hear how you feel about the experience. I'd never say anything bad about Vince, his service or his products so I find it odd you feel this way but truly I could see if maybe Vince was feeling like he was "out with one of the guys" rather than giving a lesson that was to be more than a demo.

Today's wind was pretty gusty too, wasn't it? (I try not to look since I'm "not allowed" :lol

Let me make it up to you on Vince's behalf and give you all the misinformed "knowledge" I possibly can. Deal? For you 50% off. (Yes, that's 50% off of FREE! ; )

I'll teach you how to pound a kite stake (screwdriver) into our frozen ground, how to clean dog poo off of ripstop, how to store a kite buggy for over one year from the rafters, and how to hide kites from your significant other.

Okay, the last one's a lie. Never hide anything from your S.O. - especially when "you got such a great deal on it"

Seriously though. Call me - let's go watch leaves blow by. I've U2U'd my #. Maybe we can head out to Leduc and play with Paul and Deez.

I agree that Vince is a good guy, never said otherwise, very likeable in fact. We did a lot of chatting about kiting, work, travel, moving, weather and so on. We probably could have stood on that field and shot the s**t all day

It was a good wind today, in my opinion. I would have liked to try out the 7.5m kite he had, to get a better idea of what is in store for me.

Really my biggest disappointment from today would be that I still don't know what kite to start with. I am eager to begin kiting but I don’t know how / where to start (size, brand, bar, handles, etc). I understand people being hesitant in recommending a kite, there are too many variables (weight, experience, intended use). I’m concerned that without the advice of others I will buy something that is too small and will have little use or buy something too big, not be able to control it and lose interest.

Smaller the kite, the bigger the wind range - it'll go up and be usable in higher winds before it becomes suicidal. But It won't have the bottom end of a bigger kite ...
Better your skill, the bigger the wind range on the same kite ... which is why everyone suggests beginners get out with a 2-3m kite - if it goes pear shaped you won't get lobbed so hard.

If you can already fly a 2-liner then my advice is get a 5m kite (good all round size IMO) and take it easy getting to know that - go out in lighter winds at first, build up your skill and confidence with it then get on a board but it all depends what the wind is like in your area usually ...?

Here's a chart that gives you an idea ... http://www.coastalwindsports.com/BeaufortScale.html

Thanks Kamikuza,

I thought a 5m kite would be a good starting point too. In fact I ordered the HQ Scout 5m. It must be a regional thing because several kiters from my area said I would get very little use out of a 5m here in Alberta, Canada. I have since cancelled the order.

That being said, I had an opportunity today to try a 5m Beamer. Quite a diffrence from my 1.9m, for sure. To me it seems like plenty of kite but as I don't have any experience I can't be sure. I do know I will eventually need a couple of kites but the tough part is choosing the first one

Yeah but that's my opinion - plenty will say stick with the 3m, and depending on your weight, skill and area they may be right. If you're hoping to board you might need a bigger kite but my 5m gets a lot of use ... I got a hard packed dirt baseball pitch as my riding ground though - grass is harder work and may need more kite but I'd go for harness and bar then to save my hands ... an hour or two and I got the wanker cramps bad

Handles vs bars ... for a bar, you'll need some sort of harness which is an extra expense then there's the different safety equipment. With handles and kite killers, you just let go again IMO when starting with landboarding, it's a good kite & gear to have ...

Ohh yes you will need many kites

IKO and PASA are the organized bodies for kite instruction. They cert' instructors so they can get insurance.
They follow a set pattern and credit you on a tracking card.

Sounds like you got something FAR less official.

Not many people are certified to teach on land. I think Jeff ( Doppler ? ) from Calgary may be ?

It is about $100 / hr for lessons .

some self education is paramount and self judgment for conditions and gear really are your responsibility . the instructor is there for your safety and operating specific gear. a lot of practice on your own will give confidence in what your instructor has told you. or showed you. for every hour he's helping you , there should be considerable time spent applying that level of competency . if your level of skill exceeds skills being taught. maybe the rig should be in the air before he gets there so things can move on. maybe rig more kites before instruction time is on the clock. maybe you don't need that much instruction ???only safety stuff,

the more time you spend with the gear in conditions, the more things progress.
warm up with a small kite (20 min static) have a bigger kite rigged and ready to go to. if you're on a harness have a one of those ready as well. if you can't rig that fast ...practice rigging on your own time.

the instructor can go through the set ups before you launch. YOU have to be ready to make him work where you need it . if you don't know where? then go back to first line on the post or it's gonna be expensive with a constant professional hand holder .

rinse and repeat ..

3 of the 4 choices of ride tend to favour depower kites. Of the 4 only buggy riders tend toward handles.

I think you will be best served with a depower kite. That 7m Pulse on here might be a good choice ? It will cross to water and is a terrific kite for learning depower ?

The fact that your lessons included flying with handles makes it clear that you weren't going the conventional route ?

Normally I wouldn't lower myself to respond to the complaints of an unhappy customer, but due to the far reaching effect of this forum, I feel compelled to respond.

I will not however respond to baited replies, nor will I further debate the subject at hand. I just don't have the time to spend here as others seem to.

I have used "bride36"s real identity as he has seen fit to use mine.

bribe36,

Ever since you first contacted me, your most frequent question has been "What size of kite should I buy?" If you asked me once, you asked me a dozen times or more in our conversations. From the very beginning I have explained that to get the most out of the winds in our area, which was an expressed goal, you would need two kites. One for the lower wind range and the other for the higher wind range. As a novice, when selecting a first kite to purchase, safety should always win over exuberance. The smaller kite should be the choice until you have enough experience to move to the larger kite. There is no way to predict which one you will get the most use due to a variety of factors. There will even be days when both kites will see action.

I have had conversations with a number of novices, one of them locally by the way, that have taken the "buy the biggest one first" advice. This local novice in short order strained his back, and became traumatized to the point of refusing to launch the kite again until he'd had some training. Using the smaller to larger progression I was able to help that novice gain the confidence needed to safely launch and fly his larger kite. More notably, another who on first launch was dragged into a tree trunk and suffered a broken hip and dislocated vertebrae. More than two years to mend and will never be 100%.

During your visit to my home yesterday, and our further discussions about kite selection, it was obvious you were still confused and undecided about which size kite would be your first purchase. Especially after admittedly asking advice on apparently more than one open forum. So after your departure, I decided to have a look for myself to see what type of opinions were fueling your confusion.

Imagine my surprise in finding that you have not only instigated, but continued to fuel a negative chorus of opinion of myself and consequently my business and the services I offer, based on an admitted absence of any real traction kiting experience or knowledge. By your own admission here on PKF, you "didn't know what to expect."

So, perhaps a little review of our session might refresh your memory.

First and foremost, you had the bug. Those of us who get exposed, catch the fever. I understand that. At times it gets all consuming, and you can't get the information fast enough. You were very clear in your wanting to "try it all". So what should one expect when going to an open field with a small selection of kites? Without water board, snowboard, skis, buggy or ATB. In my mind, you should have expected to be shown how to safely launch, fly and land traction kites larger than the 2m foil you own. Also it was my intention as obviously the more experienced between the two of us, to familiarize myself with your abilities and progress from that point relative to the conditions present on the field.

We briefly discussed the wind window. The strength of the wind in the power zone relative to that at the edges of the window. But of course you were already aware of that information based on flying your dual line foil. Also discussed was the effect of the large building structures upwind and their effect on the wind relative to our location on the field.

Next order of business. The boring flight of an obviously insultingly small 1.7m foil. Two purposes here. First and foremost, to determine your familiarity with controlling a kite. Pure novices in the beginning have difficulty in making smooth transitions in direction most often over steering. You obviously had enough experience to be able to handle the kite very well doing loops, figure 8"s etc. Second, was to give you just a small taste of the differences between flying a foil on wrist straps, and the slower response to input when flying on a bar. I explained my purpose in doing so. You obviously chose not to hear me. Or maybe you were so wrapped up in flying that you actually didn't hear me.

Next was the 3m foil you brought along to our session. You conveniently forgot to mention in your complaints that we spent 30 minutes or more trying to launch and fly a cheap China knock-off you borrowed from another helpful kiter. In doing so, you therefore failed to mention all the fine adjustments we made to power lines, brake lines and trim strap. My explanations of what effects those adjustments would have on the attitude or angle of attack of the kite in flight were very specific, and repeated more than once. In kiting terminology, these adjustments are referred to as "tuning." There was also no mention of my repeated comment that we had made all of the adjustments available on the bar and at the kite, but the brake lines were too short and needed to be lengthened. (again a "tuning" issue) . Then there was the follow-up email. I knew you would be chomping at the bit to be out flying and suggested that you add 12-18" of knotted lines to the outside bar leaders to give the brake lines the slack they so desperately needed.

Prior to the launch of the 3m, I explained about safety releases and what to do if you suddenly found yourself overpowered. On launch, too fly to the edge of the window then to an overhead position where you could slowly lower the kite into the power zone while getting a feel for the power with each successive pass. I even explained about safety leashes and how they are used on some products though not on anything we would be using that day. Kiting Safety 101.

When we finally gave up our unsuccessful attempts with your 3m, I unpacked the 5m along with a very user friendly crossover bar with wrist strap safety. I launched this kite myself and made a couple of passes to be sure it was properly rigged then landed it to familiarize you with the bar set-up and safety release. Perhaps you don't remember me insisting that you not be hooked in on your first launch. How if you felt overpowered all that was needed for you to do was release the bar and the rear line brakes would engage immediately. Or maybe you also don't remember how at my direction you released the bar during flight to experience first hand the safety system and how it works.

Then there was launching and flying the 5m while hooked-in to your harness. How to release from the bar loop to brake line safety.

How about my showing you how to stake out the kite and prepare it for launch when you are flying solo. Or how to use a tree or fence post, or in our case a soccer goal post to safely land the kite, especially in higher winds.

Only after you expressed and interest in maybe trying a buggy or ATB, were the handles introduced. At your option I might add, the 5m was landed and handles were added. My instruction to you if over powered. Just let go! Safety 101.

One of your biggest complaints, was that I wouldn't allow you to launch an even larger kite in what in my experience told me was an unsafe wind range. Excuse me for not throwing caution to the wind. Knowing what might be in store in that gusting wind, I wouldn't attempt to launch it myself. So there was no way I was going to put your safety at risk even though you were willing to do so. Safety 101.

Though you state specifically on PKF that neither "tuning" nor "safety" were discussed. I beg to differ. How many times does something have to be repeated before it registers? Did you even know what the term tuning actually entailed? Did you not know that kite safety involved the launch, flight and landing of a kite in such a manner that would not cause harm to either the kite pilot or any other living breathing creature in close proximity.

The most bothersome part to me is your choice of a global forum to voice your knee-jerk reaction to a service in which you admittedly "didn't know what to expect." In a forum I might add frequented by my business associates, existing and future customers. Not to mention suppliers and manufacturers of the very products I have represented successfully for almost 6 years.

It has also elicited unwarranted and unsubstantiated comments regarding my business practices , consequently my personal character, by other members of the forum who were neither privy to our verbal and email exchanges, nor were they present on the flying field.

One of the few voices of reason sounded during the online battering of my good name, was that of my kiting friend "macboy" who I have known since moving to Edmonton in 2007. Forever a gentleman, and like myself, always a good guy first, and a safe, helpful kiter a close second. bribe36, when you are are on the field with him, please take the time to listen to him re-emphasize the points you choose to ignore during our session.

2010 marks my 27th anniversary in retail, and as you know after one our recent conversations, customer service and satisfaction is as paramount to me in my business as it is to you and yours. In that vein, I will extend to you the following. If you can honestly read through the above recounting of our recent exchanges and still claim that we didn't discuss, the wind window, kite tuning or any safety measures, then by all means drop by for a full refund. By your own standards, the small sum charged for my time and use of my equipment, will neither make or break either of us.

As for price confirmation on the kite you wanted to order yesterday, I think it will serve both of us equally as well if you find another source for your purchase. Frankly, with your obvious disappointment in me and my services, I'm surprised you're still interested. But you don't have to worry. The vultures are already circling on PKR, more than willing to sell you the 12/14m you seem to disparately crave from their safe vantage point hundreds or thousands miles from Alberta.

Anyway, the ball is in your court as they say. You've created a bit of a mess here. You can leave things hanging, or you can be honest and admit that perhaps you should have exercised some common sense before you engaged your keyboard. Your call of course.


Vince
HorizonKites.com

It's an open forum so this open letter must also directed at me and I'd like to say ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince H. ... as you know after one our recent conversations, customer service and satisfaction is as paramount to me in my business ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince H. Normally I wouldn't lower myself to respond to the complaints of an unhappy customer ...

Glad I'm not one of your customers then!

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince H. I have used "bride36"s real identity as he has seen fit to use mine.

Actually, it wasn't him that first posted your name. Not here anyway - that was your good friend Macboy.

But if you're bulk posting what appears to be a sour grapes open letter across multiple forums, then I think you're in the wrong part of the kite industry - customer service is a #@%$#!ty job, customers can be idiots but you've gotta handle them right - I hated doing it so I got out of it years ago ... perhaps you should too ...?

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince H. Imagine my surprise in finding that you have not only instigated, but continued to fuel a negative chorus of opinion of myself and consequently my business and the services I offer ...

Um ... where exactly? I don't think we here were 'a negative chorus' here at all ...

Quote:

quote]Originally posted by bribe36 I just had my first kiting lesson, not quite what I expected. I'm not sure what should be covered or taught, maybe I was expecting too much. I was wondering what you think should be covered in the first lesson?

Pretty simple questions, right?

I have replied to Vince with an apology. Something that was intended as a simple question has developed into something very ugly. Vince is correct to say he covered what should be covered, set up, safety, tuning and a variety of other points.

If anyone were to look over my other posts it would be clear that I know virtually nothing about this sport. I am full of questions about size selection, brands, models, closed, open, LEI, chicken loop, and on and on. I have found everyone in here to be very helpful. In fact there have been guys who have gone far beyond being "helpful" and given up their equipment and time for me. Pretty remarkable I think.

When I started this ball rolling with the simplest of questions I was only looking for some clarification, no different then when asked about buying a 14m as a first kite. There was something I didn’t know so I asked a question. I never planned on bringing up names, and I didn’t. This was going to be general questions about a lesson from Mr. X. Was I disappointed, sure I was. I had been waiting 2 years to do this and I expected more. Was I wrong to expect more, it sure looks that way.

Vince is correct about me asking “what size kite should I buy”. I know I asked a lot. I’ve asked everyone who is reading this now what size kite I should buy first. I still don’t know. The guys in PKF have been great in making suggestions but man you guys are all over the place, 3 metre trainer, 5 meter fixed, and 8-14 depower. Many of you have said take a lesson first than decide. Well I took the lesson and I was still no closer.

Wrong person apologized

I did not get the impression that bribe36 ever wanted your name or business exposed. Macboy probably didn't mean anything by exposing your name online. We can all agree He is nothing but supportive of you .
He asked what is involved in a typical kiteboarding lesson.
A normal lesson was described and then it became clear this was less than a conventional lesson. I sort of made it clear that how far you progress is up to you NO MATTER who is teaching.

I think the mistake here is calling what was taught a formal lesson. It was a lot of valuable time from a dedicated dealer who wants nothing but the best for you but who can't do it for free. I don't know ( or care ) what you paid. You got tons of valuable time with a knowledgable instructor. You DID learn a LOT about what to buy. Don't buy those cheap china kites!! They cost you in ways you can't imagine. You have to have come out of all of that with valuable knowledge ?

If you want a formal lesson. Do your homework about the lesson going in. Different schools do it different. Winds and things can't be planned for. It's not an exact science !

BIG NOTE!!!! You will come out of your 3 lesson session with the knowledge and skill to buy the right kite. NOT always the 1st lesson !


I think a lot of this is a big misunderstanding ? I started out replying to what I expected a formal kiteboarding on water lesson would include. and so on and so on ?

Yeah, it really did turn ugly ad I feel bad for naming names now - especially because the reality is (and I stand by this to this day) "he" is one of our only reliable local sources. No hard feelings to the other guys, they just aren't as accessible - not that the others aren't great guys. Everyone works differently I guess.

I too think this was just a big misunderstanding and after having spent a couple hours with Bribe yesterday can say that with some certainty. It's not a question of who apologizes to who IMO, nobody is wrong and I think the long lesson post helps us all see both sides.

Hell....I'm the one telling Bribe (with a few disclaimers like "make sure one of us are around for the first while) that we should be looking in the 10m neighborhood for his first depower. Why? Because our average wind speeds are 7-9 knots. It's more likely that he'd spend more time fighting to keep it flying than being lofted. And yes, I've made it clear that he's welcome to my quiver anytime to develop his skills on those days he's not ready for his kite. Some of you may think this is bad advice and be tempted to chastize me but the reality is our winds suck. Of the ten times I made it out last winter the V19 was the kite du jour.

We just need to go fly kites.

I started this post the day of my lesson. As stated I was unclear on what to expect. As I review what has been written and what I have learned this past week I now have a better understanding of what I did expect: A formal briefing at the beginning, hands on with the kite, points along the way and a wrap up of what was learned. Yes safety, tuning and set up were brought up along but maybe not in the way I am familiar with or even in a way I recognized at the time. How was to know that adding line was considered tuning? To all of you that would be obvious, but not to me at the time.

We all learn differently, my back ground of 20 years in the army has shown that instruction is given in a formal and strict forum. “Here is the gun, these are the parts, don’t shoot anyone, lets go, any questions”. That is what I expected and maybe that is how I learn best. Hanging out on a field, chatting, joking and learning something is sure a lot more fun. The problem for me was what is considered the lesson and what is considered just shooting the sh*t. In the army there was never any confusion and if there was, well let’s just say it wasn’t pretty, kind of like what this has become.