Hi

I am looking to buy a de-power kite initially and primarily for kite landboarding, but would also like the cross-over abilities to use it on water for kitesurfing at a later date.

Q1. Why would you choose a Ram air foil such as the PL charger, over a LEI SLE kite such as the Best Waroo, or vicea versa?

Q2. What would a 12m kite do for you that a 15 or 19M kite wouldn't, and vicea versa?

Q3. What are your opinions of the two kites mentioned above?


PT1905

i landboard with a 12 meter LEI. 2008 Havoc, Liquid Force. Even when the wind is low at the coast on a SE wind which lets me ride both ways on the shore, for example on a 4-8 knot wind i can hit speeds 15-20mph.
and in 10-15 knots i hit speeds of 30-35 with ease on land

Ask any one those are low wind conditions. I also use it in wind speeds up to a sustained 30mph.(on water) Basically if you have the cash for a PL then your going to get one. I got my kite package complete for 330 bucks brandnew basically, it had one repair professionally done. To be honest i thought i wanted a charger but if i have that kind of cash for a foil hybrid im just going to get the New Speed 3 15m. I also have landboarded with oher peoples large LEI like 16m and 19m, in about 5 knot winds. So much freakin fun.

Q1: Charger is not a ram-air foil in the sense the term is normally used. It is a Twinskin inflatable. It does have ram air vents but they are one-way. Twinskins are pre-inflated on the ground the same as LEI's but with the wind via scoops, not with pumps (usually), but pumps or blowers can be used to speed things up in light wind.

I do not ride on water, and the Twinskins are better on land since they will not burst or deflate if punctured. they can survive a good rip of a few inches and still fly. Your LEI get one tiny puncture in the bladder and you done. I like the auto zenith. Modern bows have something like it where they will wait for you at the edge of the window and can be self launched that way. But I do not think you a can tie off a (flying) bow to a fence and go have lunch like you can an ARC/ Twinskin

Q2: Just a question of wind range.

Q3: See Q1 answer but note that I am biased, riding land only.

So the differences are:-

Twinskins inflate via wind via pockets

Twinskins are not prone to puncture

Twinskins are better for auto zenith


What about flying characteristics? would any of these be better for certain area's such as lift, freestyle, freeride, hangtime, turning speed...etc etc?

What is the difference in wind range between the two styles of kite?

Twinskins are just as prone to puncture, its just that if they do get a little hole in them, they will still function but should be repaired. The difference between LEIs/SLEs and twinskins is basically the difference between a basketball and a moonbounce. You inflate a basketball, and you're done. It holds its air, but if its punctured, it goes completely flat. A moonbounce isn't a 100% perfect seal, so it has a constant feed of air feeding into it from a pump/blower. This is how the wind works with twinskins, it is constantly keeping the kite at max inflation as the air flows in through the vents in the front. All of this said having never flown a twinskin. LEIs were originally designed for water use, but I use mine on land and it works fine, just make sure you don't pound that leading edge into the ground or you might blow a bladder. The only thing that is a total pain is relaunching from the leading edge down position, but I have an older C-kite, and I've heard that the modern bow kites are easier to relaunch. Like I said, I've never flown a twinskin so I can't put my opinion in for that. I say, try before you buy, and see what you like more. I think the auto zenith feature will be very nice for learning, and you'll probably end up spending more time with the kite in the air as apposed to an LEI, but that also depends on your skill level, your winds and the type of LEI you get. Above 12m, the kite is usually for a bigger person as apposed to lower wind speeds.

Is this another stir the pot thread?.............................:duh:

peace love and crabs

social studies is a interesting subject

socialist, actually Im a 26 yr veteran that has made it possible for you to express yourself freely and in this case unwisely............I would suggest in the future you choose you battles more wisely son...........................

Airhead I don't think you understand when people are attacking you directly or just making a remark. Before you attacked tridude maybe for one you should have looked at the smiles...

That's why this is the power kite forum not the one where PMU and his boys hang out.

huh?:frog:

why do you have a warning tridude?

OH ok i understand now....

Our work here is done...

Um......

Did I miss something here? Stir the pot thread? social studies? I was just asking for some beginners kite advice, how and why has this turned into a slanging match?!

Quote:

Originally posted by PT1905 Um...... Did I miss something here? Stir the pot thread? social studies? I was just asking for some beginners kite advice, how and why has this turned into a slanging match?!

It's undoubtably safer and easier to just ignore it. Once in a while people get... touchy. It wasn't anything you said.

I have only flown 3-4 different types of 4 line fixed bridle kites till I got my LEI. I was waiting for a PL twinskin, but jumped at a good buy from a guy around here who let me try my Waroo first. I love it so far!! I have been land boarding on it and it works great. The guys in my area kite-surf mostly, but land board a lot too. They all have Best Waroos which is an LEI. I still haven't flown a twin skin to compare and I would love to. I may own one someday. So I can't say which is better, but I can say that a good LEI will definitely do that trick.

Quote:

Originally posted by PT1905 What about flying characteristics? would any of these be better for certain area's such as lift, freestyle, freeride, hangtime, turning speed...etc etc?

The answer to this can only be dictated by personal, preference, riding style and so forth.

Earlier ARC's (Twinskins) were slower than most LEI's but that gap has just about closed with the modern kites (Synergy, Charger).

Quote:

What is the difference in wind range between the two styles of kite?

Again largely subjective. Arcs are well known for their ability to munch gusts well, however.

Sorry; the thread looked like troll bait for a minute.. :-)

There is nothing that says you can't use your LEI on land.

Obviously you can pop a bladder and a popped bladder can end your sesion. For this reason it is better to learn with a ram air foil. Pumping is another obvious issue but really only take minutes away from your session.

The newer Bow and SLE kites have as much depower as any other kites. Waroos are popular and pretty cheap .

I love my arcs and like auto zenith but was very close to going to Waroos at one point.

Try Before You Buy is always the best possible choice. It is ALL about what works for YOU !!!!

sorry about that PT.........you can use either and as always try before you buy if possible.................

yep Waroos and OR Rise are 2 of the best tubes Ive flown..................................

Quote:

I am looking to buy a de-power kite initially and primarily for kite landboarding, but would also like the cross-over abilities to use it on water for kitesurfing at a later date.

So would choose what if your choices were :-

Peter Lynn Charger
Best Waroo

I have my lesson in one hour, and am hoping he will bring along the waroo to let me try it out. It's a 2 hr lesson - I expect the lesson will be mostly basics but am hoping to have enough info at the end to decide which kite to buy and these two are at the top of my list at the moment. Will let you know how the lesson goes.

PT1905

Good news about the lesson.

I only suggested Best's Waroo because the can be bought used for cheap.

It is best NOT to spend TOO much on your 1st kite. You will be very hard on it so buying new is not your best money.

Ask the instructor what has been working for the locals.

here's an awesome vid from a jam session at Redcar England - landboarding and buggy freestyle. Check the height and rotations on these guys - almost all LEI on the landboards.

http://www.vimeo.com/8155425

I'd have to say in the last few years the whole puncture bladder thing vs foils isn't quite as much of an issue. There are a huge amount of LEI's used here all winter and you see kites hit the ground all the time. Open cell foils take the most abuse with least damage, and probably closed cell foils have more blown cells than popped bladders.
But in terms of repair I'd rather repair the foil damage over the cost and time on a bladder if it blew out the leading the edge.

Both work and it it all depends on how you fly and how well you take of your gear. You get used to what you have and make it work to it's full potential because you gain familiarity with it.

Anyway check out the video - mad skills.

Ok...

Had the lesson. First started on a small 2M LEI on bar, wind at start was 8-12 knots. we went through:-

Hazard identification
Equipment setup
Safety procedures
Launching and landing
Basic flying
Self rescue techniques

He said I quickly got the hang of the small kite and I was doing figure 8's and dipping it into the power zone to get the feel of the kite. It was a very nippy, and I was surprised at the amount of power it was generating for such a small kite.

Next we setup the 7m Waroo, and he went through the safety setup and the differences between the two setups. By this time the wind was very gusty and was up and down alot. He explained that the bigger kite was much slower and that you have to wait longer for it to react. Up it went, and the first couple of times the kite totally luffed, and fell out the sky. Third time, it went up and I think there must have been a sudden gust, combined with me being too aggressive on the turning of the kite right in the heart of the power zone...I bet you can guess what happened eh!? SPANKED!

This knocked my confidence alot, and afterwards we relaunched it with me sat on the ground to get more of a feel for the power of the kite. Although I did get the kite back up and flying, I didn't quite get the hang of the turning the kite and felt reasonably out of control and pretty worried about getting spanked again!

By this time it was time to pack up, and the instructor said that the wind was not very easy to learn in because one minute you were struggling to keep it in the sky and the next minute it was powered up.

One thing for sure is that it has made me realise just how much power these kites can generate (the hard way!) and I think now my initial thoughts of a 10/12/15m are out of the window. He suggested that a 7m would be the right size LEI for me to start with.

He also went on to suggest that if I was not thinking about getting on the water in the near future (which I'm not) then it might be worth starting on a 3.5m foil on handles - easier to setup and learn on for landboarding, and then once I was really pushing the kite to get the most out of it, then I could move on to LEI's or bigger foils.

Question: If its a bar setup that I think I will end up using, Is it not better to go with a bar from the off, rather than starting with handles and swapping later?

He said that he didn't think I was ready to go out and buy an LEI and suggested that I needed another hour or two to gain my confidence with the Waroo. Trouble is these lessons are expensive!

Bladerunner, I totally agree now and think second hand would be the best way to go if I were to go the LEI route. Question is....Foil or LEI!

PT1905

Was this lesson inland or on the beach?

The lesson was inland about 6 miles from the coast.

bar / handles: easy to switch back and forth, imho. learning the one will not mess up the other. handles offer more control options over the bar.

Are your winds always that gusty? You'll definitely want to go for a gust-resistant depower in the long term if so, and yes that would mean a bar.

the nice thing about a small foil on handles is really quick setup and take down, great for when you are learning as you can fly a wide variety of winds and sites on your own, and you'll need that as a solid base for your skills. No substitute for hours and hours spent flying.

also 2-3 hours of lessons = cost of small foil and then you can get in lots of flying hours, the best thing you can do at this point.

It is SO TRUE that having a trusty foil to play with is great money spent.

Quick and convenient for short sessions. Great for introducing the sport to friends .

If you get a harness and hook in you can learn a LOT about what a Depower does by immitating it on the handles. Doing brake turns and stalling the speed etc. 3 - 4 m is a good size.

There is a 7m Pulse on sale here that would be a pretty good place to start on depower. It is a "Closed Cell " foil so you can take it out on the water later. It flies a lot like an LEI so changing over would be easy in the future. I'm very fond of mine !

Quote:

the nice thing about a small foil on handles is you can fly a wide variety of winds and sites on your own

Furbowski, what I was told was that when you fly a depower such as a waroo, it covers a bigger wind range and gets you out more times in different conditions, whereas with foils you need 3 or 4 different foils to cover the same wind range.

If I were to opt for say a 4m foil, would this get me out enough? what sort of wind ranges would I be able to use such a kite in?

I'm starting to think that I should opt for a second hand 4m foil option, to properly learn the ropes. Once confident, move on to LEI or Pulse or something...

By the way, I really appreciate all of your advice.

PT1905

There is no such thing as a one kite quiver.

What you say about depower is correct.

Only having a 4m fixed bridle will restrict your days but having ONLY a 7 or 9m Waroo or 7m Pulse would also not cover all winds. My 7m Pulse does work from about 12mph on land to Almost 30mph. Not bad!

The trick is to get a good size for learning THEN the most useful size for your area.

One kite quiver - depends on how consistent your winds are or how fussy you are about going out. 90% of the kitesurfers in my area here have a one kite quiver and they just stop riding if they're over or underpowered

IMHO a 4 - 5m FB will cover a wide range of wind for riding landboards, when you're learning. Then get a nice depower of some sort ... that's for land though.

I agree that a 4 or 5 m that is not too lifty would cover a large range. Lower winds require more aggressive flying while in a little higher winds you can park and ride. Be careful though, I have been lifted and carried as far by my 3m FB as I have with my 11m Neo. It all depends on conditions and gusts. I think you can get more out of a fixed bridle if you use handles than you can with a bar IMO.