Just received new Neo2 11m

Manual was missing. Distributor is sending hard copy in the mail, and in the mean time sent me a digital version.

The digital manual does not cover connection of the 5th line "leash-less" safety line. Also it's out of date - showing the tophat primary safety which no longer exists on Neo2 system.

Obviously the line must be connected to something... or the 5th line does nothing and the kite flies away if the chicken loop safety is released

The safety line is just terminated by a metal ring - no quick release. See item 17 in attached image.




I'm presuming the intent is the ring be connected to spreader bar similar to the Fly Surfer Pulse docs, but, with no release mechanism and just a metal ring - how is it supposed to be connected? Could just use a carabiner but would like some kind of quick-releasable method.

How are you guys connecting the safety line?

Thanks!

the 5th line is not leash-less like the top hat on the neo 1. You need a leash. Hook leash to 5th line and then to your harness.

HQ said they do not include the leash due to people buying multiple neo II's will waste money on extra leashes that are not needed.

Bottom line you NEED a leash with a neo 2

I figured some sort of leash/connection was required - just a little confused as to how it was supposed to be connected. That was because, in error, a number of retailers are still listing "leashless" as a feature for the Neo2 in their web advertisements:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Neo2+...

That's gonna be a source of confusion and PITA for HQ if not corrected. Conversed with Craig of HQusa via email and he concurred - and will be notifying the appropriate resellers to update/correct their verbiage.

Anyhow, thanks for your reply. Leashed it shall be!

Ok just to clarify, the manual being referenced is the Depower Kite Guide 2009-2010 that comes with BOTH the Montana V and the Neo II. The top hat diagram is still in the book since it is still used on the Montana V which is still “leashless”. Yes the only place the connection for the leash is shown is the diagram of the Neo2 bar. The general illustration of the new chicken loop shows the M5 version so there is no ring shown. That does lead to some possible confusion. Those of us coming from the water side of the sport make the mistake of assuming that everyone rides with a leash since you need it the first time you fly a kite wearing a harness. Personally I have used a leash for ATBs, Buggys ,Snowkiting and Waterkiting for years. Without a leash it is impossible to flag or depower a kite if you do any moves that require that you unhook so I have always flown with a leash. Even with the so called “leashless” system I still hooked my leash into the line loop coming out of the bottom of the “tophat” . In a worse case scenario all I want to think about is having to release the chicken loop or the bar, not try to reach up and grab a top hat . Using a leash has many other applications as well in self launch and land scenarios, self rescue and just carrying your gear. Leashless flying has its upside as well since you do not have to worry about the leash catching on something and flagging the kite out when you don’t mean too. My favorite trick is too run over my leash in the Kitebuggy, never a good thing. As always we here at HQ want to know what you think good or bad so thanks for all the input. More input from users always leads to a better product. To make a long story short yes you need a leash with a Neo2, yes HQ has one (#119422) and yes any leash you already have will work.

Just a reminder the First stop of the HQ Snowkite Tour is Park City Utah next week on the 15th and 16th with Skyline on the 17th. Plus anywhere else we can make tracks…come one come all. All sorts of new toys to try.



Craig Young
HQ Kites USA

Couple quick questions...

Why is the Montana V still leashless safety? Why not the same safety system that comes on the NEO II? Just doesnt make much sense to me that you would upgrade one and not the other.. The "top-hat" safety system just doesnt seem as safe as the 5th line safety that is being used on the NEO II now.

I also have to wonder why you dont include the leash. Sure, lots of kites come with them, but I have to say that is a real comfort knowing that I have an extra one in a bag somewhere. I also have one leash on each of my harnesses. Its nice knowing that I dont have to move them around, and that regardless of which harness I grab, its already "ready-to-go".

I'll have to defend the tophat safety that was on my Montana IV. I was flying in 20 mph winds on a beach and while undoing a tangle the kite accidentally relaunched with a twist in the bridle. The kite was spinning fast and making lots of power. This all happened in less than a couple seconds. When the kite launched it picked me up hurtling me forward. I instinctively reached up and pushed the top hat forward and landed like the best long jumper you've ever seen. I was about 20 feet from where I launched and had a pile of sand in front of me when I landed. The kite flagged and the drama was over. It worked perfectly for me that day. I just ordered my Montana V too.

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Originally posted by ragden Couple quick questions... Why is the Montana V still leashless safety? Why not the same safety system that comes on the NEO II? Just doesnt make much sense to me that you would upgrade one and not the other.. The "top-hat" safety system just doesnt seem as safe as the 5th line safety that is being used on the NEO II now. I also have to wonder why you dont include the leash.

I'm not speaking for HQ, but this is my 2 cents.
The montana being and open cell and the neo a closed cell I think has to do with one haveing the 5th line and the other not. When you pull the top hat on the montana it will flap out of the sky and land on the ground almost total deflated. The neo (1) when you pull the top the kite stays inflated and comes down with a good amount of force (usually making a pretty big boom). Then even though its on the ground its still fully inflated so with the wind blowing against that big wall of a kite sitting on the ground some people were still being pulled. The flag out will help prevent this pull after the safety is pulled.

You say the 5th line is an improvement. I think yes it is for the neo, but I'm happy to see its not on the montana or Apex as its not needed. I feel the tophat is the better safety system for those kites. I would be disappointed to see it on these two.

In my opinion the top hat is very solid and has a very high rate of success. It is the first step of possibly 3 safety steps. Top hat ... chicken loop ... leash if your wearing one. The 5th line is your only safety and it can fail if your lines are twisted. Granted it would work most of the time, but I have seen this type fail before on a flysurfer. I have yet to try the new neo II setup. As soon as I have some wind I will have more feedback on it.

Fair enough. My Outlaws are open cell and have the fifth line safety, and I've never had a problem with it. I also like the fact that the kite dies completely right away. You make a good point that with an open cell, that its not as much of an issue to have it flag on the brake lines. I know there have been times when I've grabbed the brake lines and landed my outlaws and still had them pull rather significantly, even though the only tension on the kite was from the brake lines (which, in essence, is what the top-hat safety does). I always feel a lot safer knowing that if I hit the safety on my Outlaws, it flags from the center, completely killing it. I guess that is just my personal preference. I am glad it has never caused you any problems. Thanks for the input....

The 5th line idea i think is great. Like I said I have not had my new neo out yet so I can't fully comment. But I was out with a local pilot and saw the 5th line system fail on a flysurfer. Granted it was a un-normal situation, but that is when i would want it to work the most. I can't remember exactly how it started, but some how the kite did a few loops ( tangled bridle .. landing gone bad ??/ I can't remember exactly). The pilot pulled the safety, but because the lines were twisted the bar only released a few inches. Not enough to flag it out. Luckily the pilot pulled his leash and we were able to chase the kite down. We were fortunate that day that no one else was around and we had a lot of room down wind.

So moral of this story ... if your kite is in a death spiral or something to that effect pull the safety quick instead of trying to save it.

Ragden have you ever had twists in your lines when you deployed the safety? Just wondering if we had a real fluke or what

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ The 5th line idea i think is great. Like I said I have not had my new neo out yet so I can't fully comment. But I was out with a local pilot and saw the 5th line system fail on a flysurfer. Granted it was a un-normal situation, but that is when i would want it to work the most. I can't remember exactly how it started, but some how the kite did a few loops ( tangled bridle .. landing gone bad ??/ I can't remember exactly). The pilot pulled the safety, but because the lines were twisted the bar only released a few inches. Not enough to flag it out. Luckily the pilot pulled his leash and we were able to chase the kite down. We were fortunate that day that no one else was around and we had a lot of room down wind. So moral of this story ... if your kite is in a death spiral or something to that effect pull the safety quick instead of trying to save it. Ragden have you ever had twists in your lines when you deployed the safety? Just wondering if we had a real fluke or what

Scary story. And a bit odd. My fifth line gets twisted all the time. I even played with it this last Saturday. Dropped the chicken loop to show how the system worked, and it ran fine. Even though the fifth line was wrapped around all power lines multiple times. Might have been some kind of fluke. I actually think about that all the time, especially when I am looping the kite a lot. I try to make sure I am looping it in opposite directions to take the twists out of the power lines, but I've deployed the safety with loops in the lines and had no problems... It is something to keep in mind though...

That is good to hear that there can be some twists in the lines and it still function. Maybe we had one too many that day. I honestly can't remember if there were a bunch of twists or just a few. i just remember 5 seconds of terror when that safety didn't work and the pilot is getting drug away ... till he popped the leash. Then we were off to the races to catch it

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ That is good to hear that there can be some twists in the lines and it still function. Maybe we had one too many that day. I honestly can't remember if there were a bunch of twists or just a few. i just remember 5 seconds of terror when that safety didn't work and the pilot is getting drug away ... till he popped the leash. Then we were off to the races to catch it

Never a situation you want to be in. Absolute worst case scenario. I've seen it deploy with quite a few twists, but never really tested just how many it takes before it doesnt work. I always untwist my brake lines then spin the kite to take out the twists in the power lines. Definite disadvantage of not having an Infinity bar...

Yes the reason the M5 is still the leashless top hat that has been used for years with open cell foils, is that an open cell can totally collapse when held only by the brake lines. The Neo comes down out of the sky also but does not collapse totally since it is closed cell, this is why it required an extra line to allow it fold back from the center. The Neo 2 can still be brought down the same way by pulling the cross strap that runs between the rear lines and the kite will back out of the sky in reverse. You can also hook your leash to that strap if you prefer the back out of the sky effect instead of the fold back like a taco effect that happens with new line. To date the only time I have had the Neo2 line jam is when there was very little pressure on that line and with 5 or more wraps. To make that happen I had to throw such a kite loop that i ended up above the kite looking down at it . I knew the landing wasnt going to be pretty so i set the kite free. Because of all the slack in the safety lines it did catch for a second before it got enough tension on it to fully fold the kite back. In normal use i havent seen it happen. As with every new kite the pros love to fiddle with it and I have a team rider who is already experimenting with fixed pully bars in the waves and another who says he loves the kite on 20m lines. The one industry trend I am not sure about is pushing a bar control system so far that it requires its own NAME and has a price tag close to what the whole kite used to cost? Pros and power users have always customized their gear for their specific needs. The great thing about kiting is it still is the realm of the creative spirits who will tweak and adjust their gear until it works perfect for them in their given conditions. I am as bad as everyone else, I have one bar that I fly almost all LEI kites on no matter what the brand, its made of parts from several systems, tweaked and tuned over the years. The point is I know it ,I am comfortable with its operation and i have used it so much the safety system is second nature when conditions require i use it . I have had to grab hold of too many newbie kiters over the years that were being dragged simply because they froze when it came time to release their safety system. Use it ,Learn it, Practice it . The sharing of information in our sport is the thing that makes us unique and the thing that keeps the sport growing worldwide. Keep the info flowing.

Thanks Craig for that. Also very good point of hooking the leash to the brake strap like in the past.

Another point to mention is that you CAN become unhooked with a Neo, Montana or Apex (and to be fair, other brands too) and it is always an eye opener when left holding the bar un-hooked and fully powered. For this reason I have always advocated a leash with any de-power, "leashless" or not.

On a side note, but related: About 15 min. after I told Mgatc that it was OK to hook his leash to his Synergy chicken loop (since the loop stays with you when you deploy the safety), there he was chasing the kite down Folly Is. Beach after he came completely un-hooked. I always leash to the harness now.

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Originally posted by acampbell Another point to mention is that you CAN become unhooked with a Neo

I can vouch for that. Was practicing scudding last week with the Neo2 11m when.... Pliiiiing!

I only heard and didn't see what happened, but I suspect the donkey dick wasn't inserted far enough (only maybe an inch) into the spreader hook.

Yep - it IS a pucker inducing experience to find yourself holding the bar.

And yes, I was happy to be wearing a leash - even if it was a short one. Even though I managed to rehook on the fly - it was still nice to know the leash was there, hooked into the 5th line which, so far, has worked as advertised when tested.

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Originally posted by HQkiter Yes the only place the connection for the leash is shown is the diagram of the Neo2 bar.

Received and reading the printed manual...

Page 33 "Assembly of leashed kite" appears to be problematic.

* The kite images appear to be of the Camo Neo(2?) 11m, but the control bar image contains the top-hat primary release, which does not apply to the Neo2.

* The wording "leashed"? Is that a translation error where "kite with lines attached" is the intended meaning?

There's nothing on the page that seems to reference the leash and safety line.