Ive owned/flown mine for approx 3 months so the time is right for a fairly quick down and dirty review.
Ill for go the bag other than there is plenty of room in the bag for the kite, lines, and bar.

Build-

The SA 2 is the lighter weight ripstop by approx 25 percent. First impressions are "wow" and "nice" but then durability concerns come to mind. Not to fear, the material is very durable for its almost paper thin consistancy. Bridal and mixer are typical Flysurfer quality however the bridal/mixer set up on the SA 2 is shorter than the SA (my son has the 17m SA 1.5). Kite has the main deflate zip in the back, water and sand outs in the tips. Each bridal line at the kite has a break away tab to prevent ripping the canopy. Carbon bar, trimmer, and lines are very nice. 5th line safety gives you piece of mind if overpowered/needs to be dumped or solo landing above 12 kts.........Last but not least blow out valves to release internal pressure in the event of a LE crash.

Launch and flying:

Similar to an ARC by placing a wing tip upwind and launching from the side of the kite by at least 45 degrees. Down wind tip comes up, stall the kite by pulling in the bar, give her a tad bit of prefill and up she goes. You can launch her with no prefill even in lighter winds 7/8 kts......you can also hot launch in lower winds which will induce a bit of scudding so make sure you're clear downwind.

Flying:

is ridiculous............. All the talk of 6 to 8 kts on water is true if you have a lightwind board. On my Spleene Door 159 I can launch and stay upwind in 7/8 kts. At 10mph you're jumping and I dont mean bunny hopping. Nice 10 footers with huge float are possible with the right board and speed. Kite is very stable and loves to sit forward in the window. Pulling in on the bar is just like stepping on the "gas" in your car. Kite depowers very well which gives it a big range considering its HUGE. Seven/eight knots on the low end up to 15/16 kts on the high end. I will say after 12 kts I change boards to my 139.............Kite is nimble for its size and in my opinion turns faster than my sons 17m SA 1.5. Upwind is a breeze even in lower winds. Luckily when I fly this one no one else is out so I can get back down wind to my starting point but its OK to do the "walk of fame"...............

Bottom line..................if your thinking about flying in sub 10 mph winds I see no other options other than the Speed 3. If your avg winds are 10 to 12 mph this kite also fills that bill, With the S3 out and gaining momentum, more SA2s will come available, welll except mine...................fly hard, fly safe, fly it like you stole it......................

Dude

Nice review but I just gave a call to PMU (aka Pump Me Up) from KF and here what he has to say

Quote:

Ignore the ram air propaganda. Ignore the lies. Ram airs are aerodynamically inferior to LEIs and nothing can change this. 1: LIFT TO DRAG RATIO (L/D) - Rams have a HUGE drag ("D") coefficient compared to inflatables, making them more inefficient. This is reflected in their poorer lift and inability to fly as close to the window's edge as inflatables. Large rams can pull steadily enough, but lack the aerodynamic finesse of good quality inflatables. 2: INERTIA - Because large ram airs contain a much larger mass of air compared to inflatables within their pockets, inertia is HUGE. Large ram air kites contain OVER 11kg of air in their cells vs 2-3 kg for inflatables. It is very difficult to move this mass of air across the sky. This causes a multitude of problems including poor lift, slow turning, slow sining, and difficulty kitelooping. Excessive inertia also means that ram air kites to have a much narrower "sweet spot" for unhooking, which is one of the reasons ram air kites are poor choices for wakestyle riding. 3: RIGIDITY, STABILITY, & FOIL SHAPE - Semi-rigidity improves consistency, stability, turning, and handling. It means inflatables are able to withstand gusty conditions better than ram airs. Ram airs often fold, collapse, and twist in gusty conditions. Kite makers are always looking for ways to make kites more internally rigid, eg by joining the struts firmly to the leading edge, adding fifth lines, and bridles. - For stability problems in ram airs stemming from lack of internal rigidity - Inflatables have a consistent foil shape because they are semi rigid. Rams deform and change their foil shape which causes an inconsistent aerodynamic profile. 4: TURNING - Far from being a hindrance, the tips of inflatable act as rudders, enabling faster, more controlled turns. - When in the air, the semi rigid tips of inflatables create a "sled effect" whereby the kite sits stably and predictably above you. This effect is noticeably less in bow kites and ram airs. - Rigidity facilitates turning. Bar input TWISTS the WHOLE kite, causing a rudder effect at the wing tips to accelerate turns. Lack of internal rigidity means that rams can't twist as aerodynamically as inflatos, meaning their turning and feedback is sloppier and less precise. 5: LUFF CURVE/DEPTH PROFILE - Luff curves vary extensively. Inflatables with flat luff curves sit forward in the window whereas inflatables with deeper luff curves sit further back in the window. It is the same principle as sailing: If you want more "bottom" end with a sail, you deepen the luff curve (eg letting out the outhaul on a sailboard). If you want more "high" end, you make the luff curve shallower (eg sheeting in the outhaul on a sailboard). There is a lot of difference amongst luff curves on kites; this determines a lot of handling differences. It's a matter of trying different inflatables until you find one you like. - The excessive drag and inertia of ram airs causes them to sit further back in the window compared to inflatables. Hence, there is less scope for ram designers to modify the luff curve. - Because of the semi-rigid structure inherent to inflatables the luff curve is much easier to standardise and maintain. Semi rigidity actually enables variables like the luff curve to be really optimised. Ram airs don't have this capacity. 6: RELAUNCH - Ram lovers make a big issue of this. It isn't a big issue. Beginners find relaunching inflatables easy after a few sesssions. Yes, some rams can reverse launch, but so what... a lot of inflatables can reverse launch. Rams can launch directly downwind in the water, but so what... so can a lot of inflatables. Anyway, downwind launches are dangerous for beginners because of the risk of being flung or carted downwind. For intermediates and above, relaunching should not even be considered in the equation because a) they won't be dropping the kite much anyway and b) Relaunching inflatables is EASY. Commonly, ram airs will not relaunch properly because of twisting, bridle tangles, or waterlogging. These aren't such big problems with inflatables. 7: SAFETY Inflatables are safer than ram airs because: a) Downwind launches are bloody SCARY and can be dangerous. Because only a small bunch of slightly odd people use ram airs, there is confusion about their correct use, leading to potentially dangerous situations b) Because they lack internal rigidity, rams deform, twist, wineglass, and jellfish in the middle of the power zone etc when they are downwind of obstacles, in rotors, and in VERY gusty conditions. This is VERY dangerous. Some of the most frightening kitemares witnessed have involved ram users in gusty conditions - their kites have been virtually uncontrollable and have endangered both the rider and other beach users. c) Surf conditions -- While it is always a gamble if your kite gets caught by a wave, at least you've got a fighting chance if it is an inflatable. If it is a ram air, it's all over. 8: BRIDLE TANGLES & FAILURES Bridle tangles are disturbingly common with ram airs. In particular, note the statement by "schmoe" that goes: "A bridle tangle on flysurfer can mean that you do not go out... For me I had many lost hours where the wind is cranking because of the bridles. I rather inflate 5 tubes and know that the setup time is exactly 10 minutes, no more no less, than have setup time that is 70% 5 minutes and 30% an hour. And now with one pump, the setup time of a tube is less, so it is not an advantage of the foil anymore." Ram air bridle tangles can be very dangerous. A lot of riders have reported how their ram airs caught seaweed in their bridles, causing their kites to wineglass and spin out of control. Bridle breakages occur surprisingly frequently with ram airs. They can be expensive (US $500 plus) 9: PRE-INFLATING - Ram users struggle to pre-inflate their kites in a lot of situations eg cross- offshore conditions. I once witnessed a Flysurfer lover trying to launch at a point break in cross offshore conditions. He had to get a friend (inflatable rider) to grab one tip while he grabbed the other tip and they both ran up and down the narrow strip of beach, trying to pre-inflate - to no avail. He had to pack up and go home while the inflatable riders were able to do drift launches. Without pre-inflation, ram users find it very difficult to drift launch, a skill that is often required eg Promontory/headland launches. 10: RESALE - Contrary to the propaganda of ram lovers, ram airs and inflatos have similar lifespans. The major determinant of lifespan is obsolescence. In 2-3 years, whatever you're using now won't be worth much and will be superseded. 11: REPAIRS - Ram air repairs are generally a LOT more expensive. For example, a ram-air lover required a PARACHUTE repairer to fix his kite, costing well over $1000. Bills over $1000 are common - In the first example above, Flysurfer refused to honor the warranty, even though the kite was less than a year old. 12: COMPETITION Ram lovers frequently make ridiculous claims about upcoming competitions that they will "dominate." They then go on to get blown out of the water. For example, they said that various kites from Flysurfer (Psycho, Silver Arrow, Warrior, Voodoo, Titan, Insert Name Here..... etc) would dominate the pro kitesurfing circuit. It has never happened. No ram riders have ever made it into the top 20 on the PKRA - ref www.pkra.info . Ram lovers said ram airs would dominate the Cabo Verde Wave event... They didn't. They said ram airs would dominate the "low-wind" showdown in San Diego - They didn't. The top pro riders ALL ride inflatables because of their superior aerodynamic properties. It's interesting that ALL the world records in hang-time, as well as unofficial records like Eric EcS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s crazy jump, are held by inflatables. Ram airs aren't even on the same page. 13: LAND & SNOW Not only are inflatables superior on water (because of better aerodynamic performance, jumping, stability, and safety), they are also superior on snow and land for the same reasons. 14: LIGHT WINDS Ram airs are inferior light wind kites for the following reasons: 1) Excessive drag (bridles, lack of internal rigidity), compromising the Lift/Drag ratio 2) VERY slow turning 3) Inertia. The Speed 2 19 contains over 11kg of air in its pockets, compared to about 3kg in the largest inflatables. 4) Bridle failures and tangling 5) Wind dropouts and gear failure --EVERYONE experiences a few gear failures (eg broken lines) and COMPLETE wind dropouts every year. You're usually safe with an inflatable. It can be used to "self-rescue" or you can swim in with the kite. If things go REALLY bad, you can just use the inflatable structure to support your weight. --ALL ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged after 45 minutes - unlaunchable and certainly unable to support your body weight. 6) 8 knot limit -- Despite what anybody tells you, you won't really have fun on any kite (ram air OR inflatable) unless the wind is over about 8 knots. This is the starting point for BOTH ram airs and inflatables, but because of the reasons I've outlined above, inflatables are vastly superior. And this is just the starting point. You won't really be having fun until it hits about 10 knots on an inflatable OR a ram air. - Ram lovers are prone to exaggeration and just plain misinformation about light winds, eg see the following thread: Ram airs jump 8m in 8 knots ("The future is bright, the future is foil") 7) Objective Testing -- A variety of kites were tested in light wind conditions in San Diego a few years ago. Despite the ridiculous over-hyped claims from Flysurfer reps like Ted Bautista, Flysurfer ram air kites crashed and burned. The overall consensus was that Flysurfer ram air kites are ok in light wind, but they turn VERY SLOWLY. The overall impression was that there are much better inflatables. It's interesting that a lot of the ram air guys who were excited about this showdown were remarkably SILENT afterwards, in particular, Ted Bautista, the U.S. rep for Flysurfer. His alpha-male chest-beating rants in the lead up to this showdown almost defied belief. 15: GEEKS Amongst inflatable riders, there is a certain amount of collegiality. Inflatable riders tend to hang out together and help each other on the beach and on the water. If you fly a ram air, you'll always be a bit on the outside; regarded as a bit weird and not really part of the group. Part of this is because you will always be in a minority on the beach, part of it is because ram airs are so rare that inflatable riders are a scared/unsure of ram airs, and part of it is because, as a group, ram rides ARE a bit weird. Anyway, one of the problems with being part of a weird minority on the beach is that it can be very difficult to find people to help launch and land your kite

Dont quote me on that, it is his opinion. But I always laugh so much when I read it again and again on KF

As for me I am a ram-air lover. The SA2 19m is my best kite ever.

:wee::wee::wee:

buckle up, let the games begin!!

Wow, everyone is able to have an opinion, but it should be based on facts and observations instead of emotion like that. He must feel like his kites are inferior to go to so much effort to discredit foils. I talk to tridude at least once a week and he is just continually amazed at the range and low wind abilities of his 19. Talking about 10 foot jumps on the water in 9 mph winds. He is certainly sold on the flysurfer and it seems for good reason. The quote above about foil kites being inferior in low wind is funny since almost everyone agrees that is actually one of their strong points. People routinely question tridude about going out in the current winds, and then when he says he is going out they say "yeah but you won't be able to stay upwind". Then he goes out for a run and comes back upwind of where he started doing jumps to bleed of some of the upwind he built up. Nice kites indeed.

Quote:

Originally posted by mgatc buckle up, let the games begin!!

that is the last thing I want

Please ignore him. He is not a member here and it's a good thing. But he has before quoted some posts from here.

Let's not have the debate again.

We all here love foils.

That was just to show some bad stuff we can read on KF

yes this is just a review not intended to increase anyones blood pressure......................
bottom line is SA's and SA2's go well in lightwinds

my son did this vid over his Christmas break using his 17m SA 1.5 and the 159 Spleene Door in 10 to 11 kts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhWxscpv1Uk

Nice vid. Make me wish the water was warm enough to ride here...

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude Kite is nimble for its size and in my opinion turns faster than my sons 17m SA 1.5.

I (novice) also have SA192. I bought a freshly tuned (PowerZone)17 Sp 1.5 a while before the SA. I agree that the SA is levels more 'nimble' than the 17m Sp 1.5. I do believe the settings are the same.
I'm mainly a buggier and do not static(stand up) fly much.
I do get the itch to jump (static) now and again.
I can easily manage 'by the booS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- jumps with the 19SA2. I find using the 17Sp 1.5/12mPu2 require a lot more work in thier respective nominal wind ranges.
I (180lb)was bunny hopping with the SA192 in as little as 4knts and that is plenty of wind for buggying too.

Looks fun...GoPro HD Camera did a good job

I don't really get into these talks as it is like anything and everything else e.g. what’s better a hybrid car or efficient gas car? There is no real definitive answer as technologies are always improving to solve problems. I do know that if the Speed 2's & 3's preformed like was quoted above then the kite would not sell and the company would not exist...IMO. All I know is after seeing Ragden's S3 up is that I want one. :D

I think pumpmeup overdid it, but one thing that he said that I somewhat agree with, there has got to be a reason that practically all of the pro's out on the water as well as land and snow fly LEIs.

Quote:

Originally posted by power I think pumpmeup overdid it, but one thing that he said that I somewhat agree with, there has got to be a reason that practically all of the pro's out on the water as well as land and snow fly LEIs.

I don't know about too many pros but I've definitely seen Chasta doing some pretty amazing riding with his Ozone foils. Just a personal opinion but when I went out with my buddy last weekend, I had my access up in the air long before he had his 20m lei pumped up and lines attached. I'm sure LEI have their place but foils just seem to have an easier setup. I would really like to see some footage of guys taking Arc's out in the mountains for a snowkite session though. Oh and have you ever tried pumping a bladder up in -30c. Not all that fun when the valve keeps sticking and the stopper ball won't keep the air from running out. Not trying to start an argument though just giving my own $0.02

Shaggs

Nice review Tridude, sounds like a really nice kite.
Riding in low wind is obviously not an issue, how fun is it though? How fast can you go? Do you ever experience that, "I'm on the verge of sinking feeling" because you're going to slow, or does the water feel 'solid'.

I bet all the guys see you out there on those light-wind days and say to themselves, "Damn flysurfers!"

no sinking feeling with the Door...................I enjoy low wind sessions alot........as the kite makes apparent wind, speed increases........10 mph youre jumping.......... also a great time to work on board skillz like transitions, toe side, grabs, and board offs....................

the local scene here is mostly laid back to include a few pros............we all keep an eye on each other regardless of what you fly. I do help launch and land kites and if someone offers assistance on a landing I never refuse..........................

I've had very little expirience with LEIs but if I were going to pick one thing that would make me want to ride one it would be the turn speed. They're damn zippy.

But the newer non-LEIs are either really close or already at those turn rates these days so I figure I'll probably never be in the market for an LEI. It doesn' suit my needs.

We never see people riding inflatables here in the winter. It's mostly Peter Lynns, Flysurfers and HQ with an occasional Ozone.

And all that nonsense about LEIs being safer etc. sounds like it's comming from someone who doesn't have any real expirience with anything but LEIs and is unwilling to try anything but LEIs. And why would they if they don't need to?

It seems to me kites are like skis or bikes or snowboards or any of these other crazy contraptions we ride these days. Everyone has a preference for what works well for them and there are very few "bad" kites being produced. Most seem to do some things really well and some things not so well. I figure use the kites that suit your needs and don't bash the kites that don't.

The there's the whole aspect of personal riding style. In a nut shell you might be able to make a kite do something I can't just because of skill set. But most people would attribute it to a failure of the kite instead of an issue with thier handling. A kite that might suit my needs and my skills may not work for someone else.

It's all very subjective. Sorry for the hi jack but reading that stuff got me fired up. =)

Personally, some of my favorite sessions on the water were light wind sessions. Winds between 10-15 mph are really a lot of fun. Sure, when it gets up to 15mph, its a lot more power, and more fun. Riding the big board is fun, but I really like riding my rip '34. To get up and going on that, I really need close to 15mph. The low wind sessions with the door are really fun though. The water is always sooo smooth with those winds speeds. Nothing quite like it.

last time Ill mention the 19.............you have to see it or ride it to believe it.................there is no low wind comp out there..................................Saturday there was a brief lull and even our newest H2O prodigy had to come in............................the wind freshened 7 to 9................launched the SA2 and ripped it up...........................came in as the wind freshened and handed off the Door to our prodigy............................sweet kites with unmatched low end performance................................

Tridude..what do you weigh?

195 lbs..................the SA2 and Door combo are awesome.....................nice session yesterday at 3pm.......................9-11mph, upwind, jumping, and it was in the 80's....................................

Dennis you're a menace PMU is a jackass who quotes his own threads which quote his own opinions and makes out like it's scientific fact.

At Hua Hin there were 2 Flysurfers, Speed 3 Deluxe if I got the model right - they were the ONLY kites out there parking and riding when the 'big gun' LEIs had to work it work it just to get back to the beach. A touch more wind and the FS riders were boosting big jumps while the LEIs struggled to go upwind.

The price you pay for that is slower turning - but not by much from what I could tell!

I'll have to try a water FS one day ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza Dennis you're a menace PMU is a jackass who quotes his own threads which quote his own opinions and makes out like it's scientific fact. At Hua Hin there were 2 Flysurfers, Speed 3 Deluxe if I got the model right - they were the ONLY kites out there parking and riding when the 'big gun' LEIs had to work it work it just to get back to the beach. A touch more wind and the FS riders were boosting big jumps while the LEIs struggled to go upwind. The price you pay for that is slower turning - but not by much from what I could tell! I'll have to try a water FS one day ...

Funny thing is Dennis is flying a flysurfer in his pic/avatar. Someday I will own a Silver Arrow, but my wife doesn't know that yet.

yep, i dug up an old thread. i'm searching for speed 3/21 infor, comparing to the sa19. not finding much. i hope i don't regret selling my sa19 to get the 21. i'll know next week (if the water is warm enough).

kami says so, it must be true... i took the dive and i like it so far.... only 1 land ride, tho... and now the water is warm enough, but the time is what i lack :/

Funny to read that post up there of mine in 2010 from my current perspective...

I put 33 sessions on my Speed2.5 in the year or so I had it and so far have 19 on the 21, since about September last year. So from that you can deduce that I'm fat and we don't get a lot of high-wind days... more to come, I have to go to work now

Ok...

First things first - Triple Depower.

In the beginning, you'll be like "dude where is the easy parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-n'ride one-dive power from my S2?" cos it takes a tad more finessing that the S2 to really get the most out of the bottom-end... but then you'll be all adapted and it'll come easy.
The pay-off for that little bit of extra work is the top-end range!

I used to feel over-powered at 15 knots on the 2 and gusts would freak me out. With the 3 and the Triple Depower, I've not only survived much more but now the 15 knot average is time for massive fun!

The 3 21 turns faster I reckon, and can really speed up and whip it around if you sheet out etc etc.

Infinity bar is 'better', especially with the thrust-bearing mod... I prefer it without the FDS but some people like it so that may be a negative for you...

I think the 21 is more stable than the 2 and handles gusts better. I've seen it punched and socked about up there and it's drifted and flapped but I don't remember it collapsing like the 2 did before John tuned it... I've caused it to fall out of the sky by over-jumping etc but it is very well behaved.

In short - yes it's worth the extra money, especially if you're a fat ass and you live in a light wind area...

thanks kami. there is an offer for an upgrade bar but i can't seem to find anything about it. also i am familiar with the FDS because my sa2.5 had it. and it did work wonderful! but i cannot find any info at all, good or bad or how it works on the FLS. guess i'll find out soon enough....

KAMI, can you talk saome more about the FLS vs the FDS?

This is from John at PowerZone Kitesports. He sent it to me, but I'm sure that he won't mind me sharing his wisdom. I know that when I get my Speed 21m, I will add the FDS modification. My Pulse has the FDS and I've never had an issue (or fear) of pulling it even when it was deep within the power window.



Me: What all is involved in changing the Speed 21 from a FLS to a TDS?

John: Buy an FDS kit and put it on… they’re $60 with shipping. It's 3 bridles and 1 extender line. You remove the FLS gray line from the midpoint connector, add the FDS extender and connect the bridles. Then you fly it and adjust the tension. Then you’re done.

Me: While watching some videos over the weekend, I saw one where a pilot pulled the CL when a squall hit him as he raced to the beach. (I think that the kite was a Speed3 12m.) The FLS didn't dump enough power from the kite on the way down and ended up ripping the canopy. (As it spun around and around on its way to the ground.)

John: Yes, the FLS only dumps power on half the kite. The other half spins and swirls in higher wind. Lots of damage can occur using the FLS in high wind. The lines can stretch, and it can thrash the kite as it spirals and whacks the ground. I prefer the FDS , all my kites have it. 50% of the people like the FDS and 50% like the FLS. You can tell which side I’m on.

Sure my thoughts FWIW

What I found with the FDS...
The 5th line was much lighter weight than the others and tended to twist, loop and knot itself around the other lines when I dropped the kite.

Landing by FDS meant (in lighter winds) the kite would fold in half (like it's supposed to) then float down on either of its sides. I never had a problem with bridle or mixer tangles when relaunching like this... but when it came to packing the kite, you had to fold it all out and spend some time making sure things were laid out nice for a clean pack-up and speedy set-up next flight...
... or in higher winds, the kite would hover in the middle of the window, a few feet off the ground. That was annoying when you were trying to land the kite and meant you still had to secure the bar to put the kite on the ground... then deal with pulling a tip around to tidy it up.

What I found with the FLS...
Less tangles, especially around the bar.

Re. the Infinity bar - watch that bloody aluminum block thing. I've seen posts from guys who've had it eat their lines. Dunno how, dunno why... I'm going to polish the hell out of mine which like, 5000-grit sandpaper when I change the lines

Flagging the kite (eg. for landing)... it pulls less than I remember the FDS doing BUT it ends up on the ground better. Unfortunately, it tends to spin on the way down when I've used it for landing - not a huge issue unless you're packing up as you just unspin the bar when you relaunch
Looks like this - http://vimeo.com/10261922

Finally...
Another argument I heard for FDS over FLS is that flagging to the front line can stretch it more than the other. I think this is a moot point - after all, it's hauling you along and you're dangling under the kite so I doubt it's getting any more of a workout than that...

I've only had to use either safety on the water just once or twice but don't remember any issues with it so it must be fine

I slightly prefer using the line mount for the GoPro with the FDS cos I'm paranoid about the safety snagging on the arms of the mount. Probably unjustified but still...

Overall though, I prefer the FLS for the simplicity

Yes I have logorrhea

thanks joedy and kami.