I picked up the 8m Neo II a month ago and I'm luv'n it. Now it's time to get the 14m. Anyone out there have one and want to share their thoughts?

Just letting you know you might want to consider the 11m. A friend of mine was buggying with it in less than 10 knots, the 14 might be overpowering in much more than that depending on your weight.

Angus, this sounds like it is need of your input.

I'd say for your size and our winds you should definitely hit up the 14 but you'll find an 11 kicking around one day too. Your 8 will wind up your high wind rig ultimately but you'll get far more rideable days out of the 14 for the craptastic stuff we fly in.

Might want to check into the difference between the Neo I and the Neo II. There's an 11 for sale on here (Neo I) and seems nicely priced. You could hide both kites in one bag so nobody'd have to be the wiser :evil:

here is a demo 14m neo I @ Powerkite Place he has it marked down 30%

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Originally posted by acampbell I have not flown the 14. I don't know how much or if the lower end is extended from the 6-8 mph of the 11m, but it would not be much lower with that weight. I think a 14 would be fine for a big rider on water but a bit much for the bug. My comfort with the 11m tops out at about 18mph of wind speed, when I start feeling a draft under my 210 lb. arse.

Oh, yeah, the original question!
I tried to answer with the comment above, but I'm afraid my further comments about the the Neo 1 stirred the pot and contributed to a hijack. My bad.

I have since spoken to Craig at HQ about this after Frathouse asked me a similar question. Craig confirmed my thoughts above. The 14m Neo is suitable for the heavy rider, 200 lb +, needing more grunt on the water but would be too much on land. What surprised me was that he thought it would be too much on snow as well (like I know a lot about snow here in GA). While the 14m Neo 2 is will turn faster - Craig could downloop it without dragging a tip- The agility of the 11m would make up for the grunt the 14m offered on land and be much more useful.

I hope that helps some.

Edit: I just accidentally deleted most of my post here by hitting "edit" instead of "quote" in efforts to respond to his original question. (see response below dated 2/10) I did not mean to alter the thread and take anything back or cover my tracks.

land or water?

If using the 14m neo 1 on land its a beast. If you have enough wind to inflate the kite then you are almost overpowered. You can use some systems talked about on the forum to pre inflate the 14m then you will have a useable range from about 5 - 10 or 12mph. if mainly use for land I would recommend the 11m or go with a ram air like the montana.

maybe the 14m neo2 will be better since its suppose to turn faster and inflate easier????

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Originally posted by acampbell I have concluded that the only safe way to put a Neo 1 down in higher winds is with a helper at the edge of the window. Or maybe if you have a pole to back it on to.

The only safe way to land a NEO 1 is to have left it in the bag to begin with.

If you think landing an 11 is tricky - try a 14.

Sadly as i have said before in a couple of posts, these NEO 1's with supplied Bar and systems are dangerous. The NEO 2's seem to have had the wrinkles ironed out.

Unfortunately the poor soul's who have been carted around the beaches using these kites and are now stuck with them have just been the experimental Guinea pigs for HQ.

Not good enough HQ. What are you going to do about it?

The upgrades should be offered to current NEO 1 owners as a matter of safety and principle.

Buyer beware until then

That's a bit harsh.
It's a delightful buggy and landboard engine up to about 15 mph when it becomes hard to put down without help or a real solid stake.
Of course that IS a problem of limited use since that is about when things light up for water and snow.

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Originally posted by acampbell Of course that IS a problem of limited use since that is about when things light up for water and snow.

Correct, I will qualify my previous post then

if you plan to use a NEO 1 in sizes of 11 or 14 on the water [or snow] in winds over 15mph then you will not be able to self land safely.

sorry if my earlier posts appear harsh.

I'm going to look into a retro install for a center bridle- sew some bridle loops into the center cell- prolly get in through the deflate zip to do the stitch work.

I have to agree with Phantom, if companies make a huge blunder like this they should step up to the plate and make it right. I had the same problem with Flexi and the Sabre, they handed out the fix for free in the UK and wanted me to pay nearly $400 for shipping etc to do the same thing. I did get the modification from a mate in the UK and it makes a big difference. I will never purchase another Flexi product over this issue.
Angus I know how hard you work in promoting the sport but this issue is going to harm our sport IMHO.

I understand that some people are having troubles with higher wind self landings with the neo1. Is this to say that the kite is a horrible kite? I just can't say that ... if you are in high winds have someone help you land it. What is the difference with that vs. a inflatable?

I understand Phantom had other issues with the bar. i am just addressing the landing "isssue". I didn't have a problem with the landing, but i was always on land in these type conditions and i weigh 240lbs so I make a pretty good kite stake. In the water I could see this could be a different situation. So maybe its best to say the kite is good on land, but not quite up to water standards??

As for being upset about no fix for the neo1 I understand the frustration. but think of it this way .. do you expect a computer company to give you a new upgraded model when they come out with a new model 3 weeks after you bought your new computer? if that was the case we would all be getting new computers on a weekly basis ;-) Again hopefully the issues addressed towards the neo1 are taken care of now.

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ I understand that some people are having troubles with higher wind self landings with the neo1. Is this to say that the kite is a horrible kite? I just can't say that ... if you are in high winds have someone help you land it. What is the difference with that vs. a inflatable?

Yes this is a very poor design and is unsafe.

Further more it is known to be unsafe.

The kite is published with a wind range of useability. The kite becomes unsafe to land at the lower published wind range. It was sold and marketed as per this generic "blurb" as found on most websites selling kites. May I quote...

"In cooperation with Tom Bourdeau, HQ Powerkites has launched a true crossover kite that will revolutionize the sport. An innovative closed cell design and bridle system allows riders to use the NEO on terra firma or water with the ability to launch and land in areas never before possible. "

In fact this is the exact "speil' on your website.

I purchased this kite because i was assured that self landing was in fact a positive point that made a NEO preferable to inflatibles.

The fact they have changed to the flysurfer method is testimony to the fact that this is a widespread problem.

I have flown ARC's and self landed in all conditions, safely. I have never had a problem self landing an inflatable in conditions that do not exceed its rated wind range. I do not kite unsafely.
Are you saying that my expectations of the NEO are far to high? and that I am unrealistic to self land a kite safely within the published wind range?. I did not see any marketing that suggested to me that buyer should be aware that to use this kite in the middle of the wind range you need to bring a friend.
How many kites are sold with the fine print that says kite safely bring a friend.

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ understand Phantom had other issues with the bar. i am just addressing the landing "isssue". I didn't have a problem with the landing, but i was always on land in these type conditions and i weigh 240lbs so I make a pretty good kite stake. In the water I could see this could be a different situation. So maybe its best to say the kite is good on land, but not quite up to water standards??

Maybe it is the best to say that it should not be used on water, it is interesting to me that you never see any advertising which showed the 11 or 14 metre kites being used on the water, its always the 8.

If that is the case, i am entitled to my money back, given that I only purchased these kites last August?

Will you be changeing your website to reflect this revelation?

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Originally posted by DAKITEZAs for being upset about no fix for the neo1 I understand the frustration. but think of it this way .. do you expect a computer company to give you a new upgraded model when they come out with a new model 3 weeks after you bought your new computer? if that was the case we would all be getting new computers on a weekly basis Again hopefully the issues addressed towards the neo1 are taken care of now.

No i expect a responsible company to acknowledge they got it wrong and publish ways to retrofit safety systems that actualy work..In other words protect the consumer.
Flysurfer do this, you can upgrade older kites to FDS.

Your computer analogy is laughable, i do not expect my computer will subject me to near death experiences - so if you brought a toyota and it had a dangerous fuel system that under certain circumstances could leak catch fire and kill you, and two weeks later they introduced a new model that cured this problem ... i take it your response would be?

So you sell a kite knowingly with a fault that could under certain circumstances lead to death or serious injury [even unknowingly] you would do nothing?
You would simply say the new model fixes that, too bad you have the old model.

Computers yes, Kites No.

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Originally posted by _thephantom_ i do not expect my computer will subject me to near death experiences

Never used Windoze 3.0 ehh?

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Originally posted by _thephantom_ so if you brought a toyota and it had a dangerous fuel system that under certain circumstances could leak catch fire and kill you, and two weeks later they introduced a new model that cured this problem

The present Toyota recall with the "stuck" accelerator pedal is probably more analogous. From what you and Angus describe, it sounds like when the Neo 1's safety system fails at higher winds, the kite is essentially stuck on.

Curious - for self landing in a controlled manner, have you tried landing the Neo 1 upside down? With the kite inverted on the surface it shouldn't relaunch yes?.... does this work in practice? Of course, even if it did - that would not resolve the safety system failure... for uncontrolled landings.

I like my NeoII 11m, Hydra 350, and Scout 5.0 - my experience with the HQ lineup has been a good one and I'm presently considering adding the NeoII 8m.


It's unfortunate HQ is slow to resolve/respond to this issue - especially as the Neo 1 was marketed as a higher level beginner kite. Seems reasonable to offer some kind of discounted upgrade or at least a retrofit.

Seems to me these used 11's and 14's beginning to floating around the resale market, with no retrofit available, are time bombs waiting to go off; and when they do go off, it will damage HQ's reputation and have a negative impact upon the development of the sport.

But this is avoidable - if HQ is smart and proactive.

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Originally posted by _thephantom_ So you sell a kite knowingly with a fault that could under certain circumstances lead to death or serious injury [even unknowingly] you would do nothing? You would simply say the new model fixes that, too bad you have the old model.

This could go on forever, so I am going to quit the hijack on this thread. But before I do I will address the above statement. If I felt a kite was extremely dangerous because of a defect I WOULD NOT SELL IT! I like to pride myself that I do the best I can to make this sport as safe as I can. If someone was in a life or death situation with this kite they can simply pull the chickenloop safety and be released from the kite. Sure you may lose a kite, but you will live to kite another day. Because of this safety I do not feel the kite is a death trap. I have to deal with the fact everyday that a kite I sell could under certain circumstances lead to death or serious injury. this is why I try my best to put the correct kite in peoples hands.

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Originally posted by bribe36 Now it's time to get the 14m. Anyone out there have one and want to share their thoughts?

I think it depends on your wind conditions and usage context.

I've been learning the 11m Neo2 in low winds typically 3 gusting to 15. While the 11m does "fly" in winds averaging in the advertised 4mph range, I'm finding that reverse launching in those low winds is impossible. It appears the weight of the kite is simply too much for a 3/4mph wind to allow the kite to lift off and upright itself. (maybe some pilot skill factors there...)

This is in comparison to the Hydra 350 and Scout 5m - both of which easily reverse launch in those conditions.

I think the weight factor would apply even more to the 14m. Probably worth keeping in mind...

Just to clarify, there is no problem with the current Neo i's relaunching when the safety is deployed. It is fully stalled and will stay on the ground but just stays erect on the ground, creating raw drag that would overpower the average stake in higher winds.

Landing it on its nose will accelerate it into the ground and cause it to bounce around like an angry child throwing a tantrum

No time bomb. just a pain in the ass and unfortunate in a day when dumping to safety on the average kite will turn it into falling laundry on a string.

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ Sure you may lose a kite, but you will live to kite another day. Because of this safety I do not feel the kite is a death trap.

That'd be a nogo on a lake like 11 mile reservoir with ice fishermen doting the surface. Just cutting the thing loose would be a serious liability.

Again, not an issue for the Neo2's - but the responsiveness of HQ and its dealer network to this issue for existing customers is worth consideration by those pondering an investment in HQ product... given there are alternatives on the market.

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Originally posted by acampbell No time bomb.

If joe beginner buys a used Neo1 11m, deploys it in gusty inland winds - and then relies upon the nonfunctional "safety" system to flag the kite, they (and whoever might be downwind of them) are going to be in for a nasty surprise.

I've utilized the Neo2's safety on several occasions. It does what it's supposed to - it kills the kite when I'm digging a trench with my nose while still strapped into my ATB.

From what I'm reading, the Neo1 would yield an entirely different result. That's not acceptable.

And for dealers to just say, well #@%$#! - you can just cut the kite loose. That's a big NO-GO.

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Originally posted by acampbell Landing it on its nose will accelerate it into the ground and cause it to bounce around like an angry child throwing a tantrum

I've found I can "land" the Neo2 11m on it's nose by flying it to the edge of the window, touching down the wingtip, and then gently rolling it over.

Quite controlled and no tantrum; and done intentionally to practice reverse launching... which, in the lower 4mph "flying" range, is thus far a real PITA - and likely an even bigger PITA for a 14m NeoII in the same conditions.

I just read this whole thread. It starts off asking about the NeoII and turns into a dispute about NeoI's I hope something becomes of a retro or something. I do not own one of these kites but I suppose alot of people do. I bet HQ has this info and is considering a retro. But I could be wrong. Lets hope they do.
OK all done.

As with any product there are always enhancements and improvements with each new production model. Since we live in the age of liability it is very difficult for a manufacturer to recommend after market modifications to their product when they have no control over how the modification is done. Any of us that have flown the past generations of Foil kites know that there is constant dialogue among flyers about what modifications can be done to the kite and how to upgrade older models as new versions come out. This is a user driven dialogue and allows flyers to discuss modifications and share tips without involving the actual manufacturer. Modifying an existing Neo to use the TDS line would be possible but would require adding bridle points in the center of the kite, and reinforcing those bridle points, and yes the new bar works with the old kite but there is nothing to attach the flagging line to at the kite end. Any bar works with either kite; I fly all my kites foil or LEI with a switchblade 3 bar just because that is what my brain is used to in an emergency situation, twice this year that has saved me from disaster when a newbie wrapped my lines with their kite. Ejecting is second nature as it should be for everyone…if you have not done it practice it.
I have to say this never ending tirade about the Neo 1 confusing. The Neo is a unique kite that should be looked at as a new design that requires the flyer to get used to it just like any other kite. Do we all not remember the Flysurfer Psycho? They didn’t perfect that till Gen 4. Gen 1-3 had various flying and flagging issues that we all discussed in the forums and chose which mods made the most sense for our particular use. Never did anyone ask FS to recall it or anything else? We as users just made it better and 3 years later they caught on. Cabrinha with the Switchblade 1, plagued with relaunch ,tuning and flagging issues, did we ask for a recall? No we thought it was amazing ,but knew it could be better.We learned from each other made suggestions and 14 months later Switchblade 2 was a big improvement. I could go on and since I watched the development cycle of many kites as a retailer for 15 years. If the Neo 1 should be called unsafe then you have to apply that label to every LEI out there prior to 2009. None of them had flagging lines that worked to 100% depower the kite. Thats why we all use someone to assist in launching and landing. Sure I can self launch or land any kite out there but its not a bright idea when at most kiteboarding locations there is usually someone to help you launch and land. Any flyer who does a self landing when there is someone there to catch the kite has bigger issues.
I logged over 200 hours last year flying Neo 1s. I am 145lbs and flew all the sizes including the 14m. Never did I find the kite unsafe. Yes it is different to land than an LEI, it is NOT an Lei. Yes its lands differently than an open cell foil…it is not one of those either. You pull the safety the kite flys down in reverse and rests on the ground. You pull one side line in grab the loop in the line where it attaches to the flying line,release the bar ,walk toward the kite and the kite flags out and lays there like an air mattress, just like every peter lynn and flysurfer used too. If you don’t want to grab the line and pull on it then hook your safety leash too it. If you wanna get high tech put a metal ring on the end of one of the outer lines to hook to. Another note , Neo1 and 2 will reverse relaunch at the bottom of their wind range you just have to reach out further on the steering lines the lighter the wind gets and pull in slowly instead of jerking it. The NEO 2 14m is much faster and will downloop on transition nicely without dragging the tip like a Neo 1. I have been the only one out flying at 8mph while all the flysurfers and Oz ultralights could not get their kites in the air. It’s a new tool with its own set of rules and its own set of skills, learn how it works and it will open up many locations that you have been unable to access with an LEI due to worries about puncturing bladders and figuring out what to do with your pump when you are launching that epic downwinder. Its not a beginner kite..there is no such thing. Thats what trainer kites are for. As a PASA and IKO instructor who has taught 100s of students i can tell you no one is ready for what a full size kite can do until they spend the time practicing with a trainer and hopefully with an instructor.

Nice speech but the reality in the world of land use there is no recognized training available to my knowledge in North America. We fly fixed bridle and de-powers not LEI's etc although some do. I agree they are different than anything I had flown before and as you state every kite is different. Modifications shouldn't be an issue if we got some of our great shops out there certified to do the work. Making a product better with the help of flyers you would think would be a plus.

Just my two cents worth.

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Originally posted by HQkiter only one out flying at 8mph while all the flysurfers

But the advertised wind range for the Neo 8,11, and 14 goes down to 4mph.



While the Hydra 350 and Scout 5m both easily reverse launch at 4mph, as advertised - my experience is the Neo 11m does not. I generally have to resort to dragging one tip of the kite in order to reposition and relaunch. It's a real PITA.

Got any video of folks boarding with one at 4mph? Or reverse launching?

Wouldn't 8mph be a little more honest? It does reverse launch at that wind speed.

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Originally posted by HQkiterAs with any product there are always enhancements and improvements with each new production model. Since we live in the age of liability it is very difficult for a manufacturer to recommend after market modifications to their product when they have no control over how the modification is done.

Flysurfer publish exactly this information for free and how about offering an upgrade service, it helps everybody. The NEO2 is an update to correct an obvious failure in the NEO1, thats not merely an improvement its a mandatory safety upgrade.

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Originally posted by HQkiter I have to say this never ending tirade about the Neo 1 confusing. The Neo is a unique kite that should be looked at as a new design that requires the flyer to get used to it just like any other kite. Do we all not remember the Flysurfer Psycho? They didn’t perfect that till Gen 4. Gen 1-3 had various flying and flagging issues that we all discussed in the forums and chose which mods made the most sense for our particular use. Never did anyone ask FS to recall it or anything else? We as users just made it better and 3 years later they caught on.

The NEO is hardly a new kite its a closed cell foil, much the same as a pulse.
As such. HQ in there wisdom made the NEO1 with the same systems as first seen on the psycho 1, in other words allowing the kite to land using the brake. The problem exhibited by the NEO 1 is exactly what was on the psycho 1 and subsequently modified and refined . Is it not a given that the buying public expect that a 2009 model kite is up to date with modern safety safety systems and is not a throwback to 1994. Thats bull#@%$#!, HQ copied the OZONE system and now are copying the FLYSURFER System, its not up to the buying public to give the feedback, we are purchasing the cumulative knowledge of what has gone before. Buyer beware indeed, HQ must think we are all stupid. FLYSURFER has issued modifications and updates to kites when a safety issue has been found, even to the point of free repair and modification.. How about it HQ?

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Originally posted by HQkiterCabrinha with the Switchblade 1, plagued with relaunch ,tuning and flagging issues, did we ask for a recall? No we thought it was amazing ,but knew it could be better.We learned from each other made suggestions and 14 months later Switchblade 2 was a big improvement. I could go on and since I watched the development cycle of many kites as a retailer for 15 years. If the Neo 1 should be called unsafe then you have to apply that label to every LEI out there prior to 2009. None of them had flagging lines that worked to 100% depower the kite. Thats why we all use someone to assist in launching and landing. Sure I can self launch or land any kite out there but its not a bright idea when at most kiteboarding locations there is usually someone to help you launch and land. Any flyer who does a self landing when there is someone there to catch the kite has bigger issues.

Again you are talking crap, i did not buy a 1994 kite , I brought a modern 2009 model kite which is ranked amongst its peers.
Further more I note that you have logged in this forum under several names, however the post that sticks in my mind was the one made under the name Kter Guy on the 9-3-2008 i which you wrote a glowing review, so much so that this influenced me to purchase an 11 and a 14. Such is the power of positive reviews.

In this post I quote what YOU had to say

"For the first time I can show up alone at any location self launch my kite safely, ride for hours then land the kite anywhere I need to."

and

"a fail safe safety system that brings the kite down under control and in a smooth controllable manner with out all the flapping and spinning associated with many companies flagging systems."

Clearly you have changed your mind in the intervening time.

Lets face it Craig, the NEO1 is a great kite, with an appalling methodology around safe usage.
It is poorly designed, poorly thought out and it is a lemon. A 14m lemon.
HQ built a kite with safety systems exactly like a kite made in 1993 and whilst it flys well it is as safe as any kite made in 1993, unfortunately its the year 2009 and the kite buying public, who are influenced heavily by manufactures claims and reviews deserve better.

If its not a beginner kite and we have to learn an entire new methodology around landing safely, just what was your target market? Not Flysurfer, they are light years ahead it seems, not open cell foil users, at least the safety system works on those due to design, cant possibly have been modern LEI users nor ARC users, why would they compromise there standards? HQ built a kite to compete head on with the best of 2009, unfortunately they fell short and equalled the best that 1993 could produce. Realizing their mistake, HQ have abandoned the OZONE and copied the FLYSURFER, maybe we should all just wait a few more years for HQ to get it right.

And thanks for all your landing tips, maybe it would go a long way to publish these in your manuals, pull this attach that, find a friend

HQ answer is simply, oh well buy the new model, we have done better this time, silly me.
Shame on you and tell me why do you use at least 4 alias to post on here? with your pro HQ rhetoric. People like me tend to believe you.

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Originally posted by _thephantom_ however the post that sticks in my mind was the one made under the name Kter Guy on the 9-3-2008 i which you wrote a glowing review, so much so that this influenced me to purchase an 11 and a 14. Such is the power of positive reviews.

Yep. I was influenced the same way by that review. I'm just glad I was able to see the threads here and elsewhere discussing the Neo1 safety issues and held out for a Neo2.

I was also influenced by the HQ claim of a 4mph low end specified operational wind speed for the 8, 11, and 14m neos - and frankly, 4mph seems to be marketing BS. In the threads here on PKF regarding depower kite operation, the general consensus seems to be that 8mph is the speed at which depower kites become functionally usable.

I like rooting for the underdog, and that's one of the reasons I went HQ - but if I knew then what I know now regarding the pattern of dishonesty exhibited by Craig logging in, NOT IDENTIFYING HIMSELF AS THE U.S.A. HQ DISTRIBUTOR, and posting his "reviews", I would have given HQ second thoughts.

The internet enables consumers to stick together and fight back.

C'mon HQ you can dooo it!

:eureka: thephantom why dont you just sell the kite for 100 bucks and be done with it? I know I'm tired of hearing about it.......

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Originally posted by pigryder :eureka: thephantom why dont you just sell the kite for 100 bucks and be done with it?

Why should he have to eat a loss on a product that does not perform as advertised?

The Neo 11m is advertised as having specified usable wind range of between 4 and 27mph.

One of the Neo's advertised product features is landing without assistance; and multiple users have reported the product is not safely landable without assistance on the upper end of that range.

If I wrote software that similarly failed to perform to spec - I wouldn't be writing software for very long.

Bullshyte is better for hiding behind than standing upon, HQ; so stop the shuck and jive dance and act like a mature vendor who takes responsibility for their faux pas.