Hi all,

coming back to kiting after a hiatus.
The only power kiting experience I had was a 3.1m^2 self built NPW9b kite.

I AM NOT AFRAID OF TACKLING HIGHER DIFFICULTY LEVELS. As such I'm more concerned about being able to use the kite more often, than only being able to use it on very high wind days which might cause problems with gusts since I'm a beginner and lets just say I'd rather get some lifting on lower wind range than higher and with gusts.

I'm 6'5" weighting ~165lbs, I picked a GUAL kite design to build from http://www.wingine.nl/

Now I'm faced with a choice which I have little experience in, will a 6.5m^2 kite or a 8.0m^2 kite suite the following activities, strong pull, lift, jumping in the wind ranges from 3-20MPH. Basically I want a size that will leave me head room to fly in higher wind ranges and experience more.
Of course I know almost no one has had experience with this kite and doesn't know how it behaves, but based on your experience and based on the following photos of the profile of the kite, and wind conditions, please guesstimate and add your input.

I'm hoping you can match these profile shots to something you have previously used and can provide your comments.






Here is a quote, I think he was one of the guys out of a group from that site who designed it, here's what he had to say to me about the kite.

Quote:

The Gual performs as a friendly intermediate kite. In the right size with the right winds it’s an very good foilkite for beginners in a buggy or on a kiteboard. It’s possible to jump with those foilkites, but you need enough size to do that (at least 5 or 6 meters). Better for jumping, boarding, etc. is a depowerable kite, but the Gual is not a depowerable kite. Depower or not; jumping with kites can always be dangerous. So be careful. (It’s definitely not my hobby…)

On a last note, frankly I have been aware of the risks of jumping, but as they say until you experience it you won't know where to stop, but I will use caution. I am aware of going out and buying a 3, or a 5 m^2 kite and trying it out, but that opportunity just doesn't seem to favor me. So I'm seeking help in determining which size would allow me to jump in the lower range wind as well as probably the high. 3-13MPH is at least the target marker since I don't have a lot of time and I'd just love to go out and get some

Andrey? Did you comment on my NPW noob thread over at kitebuilder? small freaking world!

I'd say go with the 6.5... it seems like a "fairly" high AR kite that should give you some good pull/lift. I fly a 5.6 jumper-kite on a regular basis that can get me some pretty crazy air at 20mph, and i weigh 230ish... actually got a 10'er today at lunch on it in 20ish winds... that being said, my kite is factory built, (not trying to bash your skills at all) but if there is some error in your methods, the kite will not perform as well.... So i would expect the extra kite, to compensate for any errors or lack of efficiency...

an 8 wouold be fun, but at your size, and 8m is pretty big... good for <15mph days tops...

Let us know how it goes!

Yes, small world

Right now it's 6-10MPH. http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.as...

That is approximately the range I want to fly it in.
February had a max gusts up to 25MPH and max sustained wind of 10MPH.
January had 38MPH gusts, and 10MPH winds max.
May seems like the most stable month from 5-10MPH sustained wind, all the other months inbetween had weird or no speeds.

So it doesn't seems like Ocean Beach gets a lot of wind, at least over the long run. So I'm just aiming at being able to fly most of the time, and I'll sit out the higher winds and gusts. I might even buy a smaller one for higher wind ranges after I play with this GUAL.


By the way, do you think these lines are enough for me, and such a kite? 150kg/330lbs primaries X 100kg/220lbs brakes

i'd do at least 200kg primaries, thats whats on my 5.6 anyway, 200kg primary, 100kg secondary

is there a way you can make both? I'm just worried that 8m will be a monster in much over 10mph... my 5.6 goes up in about any wind, and if i execute the jump right, i can jump in about anything over 10mph... to get any serious air, i need more wind, but i'm also a lot bigger than you are...

A friend of mine has the 4.1m twister, and is about the same size as you, and ive seen him get pretty good air with it in 15mph wind...

that 8m would be a cool kite to have, but i think the potential to get wrecked with it is pretty high... if it were me, id make the 6.5, and see how it pans out, and if i needed more, i'd do the 8

The thing is, I already bought those kite lines, they are Flexifoil lines from ebay a guy was selling, as far as people were judging them they are not fake flexifoil lines.

Yeah, I'd love to have 200kg X 150kg lines, but there was none, I'd either have to buy spectra from somewhere and make it myself, or buy expensive lines from somewhere.

Making a kite isn't as EASY as you think. You first need to print out a pattern onto paper. and for 6.5 or 8 m^2 kite that's a ton of paper, depending on how you print the pattern. Then you need to buy ripstop, kitebuilding store offers the most color selection of Challanger Sailcloth 0.75oz ripstop at $7.75 per yard of 60"wide material and based on various guesstimates, I'd need at least $140 worth of material for either kite, not counting on extraneous materials to add support to the kite. So I wouldn't be surprized if either of the kites would run me over $220.

I still need to figure out which handles to buy and where. The ones I made out of EMC have rough edges that cut into the rope when in use, and would wear out too fast.

If you can build me a kite that I can jump with in 3-5mph wind I'll buy 2 !

Build the 6.5. The 8 will have too small a wind range + turn too slow.

This site has some interesting kites.
http://2e5.com/kite/yagu/

I read somewhere that Gual performs similar to a Flexi Blade, I see that you got one, would you care to comment on how your Blade turns and reacts, as well as its wind use range and ability?

Can you explain how 8m^2 will have a smaller wind range?

My 9m Blade flies in some pretty low winds. It is getting old and soft so doesn't perform as well now. It still pulls like a truck on apparent wind once you get moving. It starts to be too much kite and I can't hold my ground by about 10mph wind and I'm not a beginer. I still can't pull a very great jump off with my old 9m

Jumping is ALL ABOUT kite control. The easier it is to turn the kite the easier / safer it is too learn. The 8m will be slow to turn so slow on the re-direct part of the jumps. I can get off the ground O.K. with mine. The landings don't happen as planned because it is slow coming back around.

A 6.5 m kite will start to fly and produce power almost as soon as the 8 but you will be able to fly it in to higher winds. In the lower winds you can produce power by flying / turning it faster because it will be easier to do so.

A gall may be DESIGNED to fly like a blade but the one you make won't likey be near as lifty. That isn't a shot at your build skill. Blades are just that good!!!!!

Thanks a lot.

A few more comments from other users and I'll make up my mind, though 6.5 does start to look like a better choice.

no, i know making a kite isnt easy, all i was saying is if you had the option to make both, i would shoot for both... because you would use the 6.5 more, but the 8.5 would be lots of fun on those very light wind days...

Those flexi lines will be good... if you do try the 8.5 down the road, i would use the 200kg lines... im just weird about my linesets i guess:puzzled:

all in all the 6.5 will be a better kite tho, it has a wider wind range... ie, both kites will go up in 5mph wind, but the 8.5 will be unuseable much over 10mph, whereas the 6.5 will be good till about 20mph, if you get a little crazy... you'll use the 6.5 more, and it'll be an overall safer kite...

as far as handles... check some of the vendors around here, i know they stock flexi and PL handles, either would be a good choice

Like i said tho, keep us updated, i havent seen a kite like this be built... npws are cool, but this is a whole 'nother level in kite building!!

Drew and Blade are right. Go with the 6.5. Although I can ride the 8.5 past 12-14 mph its stopped being fun and starts getting hairy. The 6.5 has a more useable range and even that is an extremely large kite if you new to powerkiting. Start out in lighter winds with it and work your way up. 150kg x 100kg might be fine for general flying but you'd never see me jumping with them. That's asking for a quick trip to the hospital. Just my 2cents. Good luck with your project. Fly safe

HEEELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!


I can't for the life of me figure out where these pieces go on the kite:
(Area between black and red lines is the seam, area inside black lines is the kite pattern, red lines are there to make it easier to cut material and sew together)
http://i47.tinypic.com/2n8ncih.png

I know there are 2 types of kites, open vent and closed vent.
Closed vent type of kite is where you attach bag sacks to the opening on the ventral side of the kite, such that when the kite puffs up, the bag sack works as a valve to keep air in, and not let it out through the ventral holes.
Open vent type kite is where there are no bag sacks, the opening on the vents are unobstructed and the air can move in and out.

So what are these vents pieces doing in the print out pattern from GUAL?
NOTICE, they only start from Panel 4 and continue to the middle of the kite from both sides, means it's the 4th panel from the left/right side of the kite.

What's the deal with Trailing Edge, and Leading Edge remarks, and what's up with the Centre mark? Center of what?

Please help me out, I can't realistically proceed without knowing what it is or where it goes. Why it's there would be helpful also.

Here's a better view of the whole kite, I don't see these vent panels on here, AM I BLIND?
http://i50.tinypic.com/nm0ltf.png

After looking into some manuals and playing with the program to see how the pattern changes, I've narrowed down where this material goes,

it's either a gauze material that goes over the vents to prevent debris from entering, or its a different but similar type of system compared to the closed vent, where this flat piece of material is laid on top of the vent hole with 3 sides stitched down, and 4th loose, such that the air entered the vent and lifts the flap, once the air tries to escape from the ventral vent, the flap plomps down thereby closing the vent. Difference in this design is that it's only a 1 piece vent as opposed to a 2 piece, sock/bag type vent.

Either way, i'll know more once I print out the pattern.

By the way, for those curious, I have decided to do a GUAL 1.7m^2 and use it as a proving grounds for my 6.5m^2 kite which per suggestions from all you fine members I'll use for my enjoyment as a Foil traction/jumping kite.

GUAL 1.7m^2 project page is located here (only because I'd like to keep only 1 project page for updating purposes)

This is mostly my feeling but for me kites under about 3m act a bit different than their larger siblings .

Under 3m kites start to become VERY fast flying. They zip through the wind window and produce a short puff of power on the way through . No real park and ride . People fly these smaller kites much different snapping them about to create repeat power puffs. To Judge anything at all about how a 6.5 kite will fly by flying a 1.7 in the same model is almost impossible !

You will learn a lot about the build but not a lot about how the 6.5 will fly doing this. Still it should be fun !

Quote:

Originally posted by kandrey89 Can you explain how 8m^2 will have a smaller wind range?

Simply that the larger the kite, the smaller the practical usable wind range. My 3m kites can fly in 2 to 25 mph (maybe more, but that would be work).

My 10.8 Reactor will fly and buggy in 2-3 mph on the low end (less if launched in a puff and brought to speed) but I have to put it away in about 7 mph, maybe more, but again, work (and the possibility of being yarded in a minor gust.

I'm 210 #

Andrey -

the piece must be a gauze vent cover for leading edge at center cells. Guals don't use sock valves, at least in any of the Surfplan files I've looked at.


krumly

Quote:

Originally posted by krumly Andrey - the piece must be a gauze vent cover for leading edge at center cells. Guals don't use sock valves, at least in any of the Surfplan files I've looked at. krumly

So that picture I have above, showing the material labeled as Vent, that's just dimensions for gauze?

Thanks

I'm building the 1.7m^2 not to judge the 6.5m^2 version of the kite, but to become familiar with the construction of the kite, and to acquire building techniques so that when I build the 6.5m^2 I do not make any costly mistakes, after all there will be a lot of material, bridle lines, etc and they will all cost quite a lot because bridle for example will have to be #150 for the Primary Level 1 and 2, and Spectra #150 isn't cheap. Neither is the Ripstop nylon cheap.

1.7m^2 will just be a toy, I won't need it for anything more than practice and proving grounds for my abilities.

There are many intricacies at building kites. Putting material together to stitch it. Orienting material, because sewing must be done on the inside of the kite, you have to invert the cells after sewing, this means you have to account for it when putting things together, which is critical. You have to add reinforcement lines in the right places, with just the right slack. There are so many thing that just can't be imagined until you start building.

Just to let you know about the wind that you've been seeing over the past couple of months down at Ocean Beach. They have been much tamer than they normally would be due to the el nino that's going on. Clear days are 4 - 7mph, stormy days the wind goes through the roof. Normally in the Spring (the best time to fly at Ocean Beach) the winds will be almost a constant 12 to 20 mph 4 out of 7 days. A 6.5 would be great on a 10 to 12mph day but tragic on an 18mph day. All I'm saying is that when you get good winds (18mph is really the sweet spot for control, speed and power) you'll want a 5m kite. My favorite jumping kite was a 4.9m blade III - awesome jumps but sometimes sketchy landings depending on the redirects.

Good luck with your project.

I checked out the weather station logs for last year, the month of May forward into the summer where the best stable months when the wind was higher than 6MPH and more or less stable, as opposed to 0-6MPH and 6-12MPH every other hour.

The big problem with the summer months is that when the temperature goes over 70 degrees the wind doesn't stay down on the beach. If your on the hill (Sutro tower) there will be plenty of wind, if your on Fell and Divisidero there will be wind, but if your on the beach there's nothing. Tricked me a few times, forecast says its going to be 18mph winds with sunny skies and 71 degrees - get down to Fell and heading towards the beach and there's wind blowing all around, thinking to myself, "this is going to be great". Finally get down to the beach to find . . . nothing, but loads of people. The kite surfers down there will be the best guide if there's any decent wind or not, if they're not there, then the wind isn't all that great (12mph minimum for them to even start with the larger LEI's). This year is a bust, find what you can when you can - next year should be back to normal.

I've been looking for ways to figure out what I need my bridle lines to be, and after looking up some formulas, I ended up calculating the kite's pull. This allowed me to compute a number of graphs to find out how the kite will perform in various sections of the powerzone, as well as under different wind speeds.

Have a look at this post, and the one below it!

DO YOU AGREE? Should it lift 180LBS under 13MPH+ or will it lift 180LBS (my weight) in 6-8MPH, considering the kite is doing the lifting both times in the same powerzone location. Do my calculations sound about right?