After a long 2 weeks and to many discussions about what I was doing,(kite buggy) with trauma doctors, thoracic specialists, and my loving wife who took me to the hospital, I have agreed to design and implement some kind of safety system for kite bugging with a harness.
I have talked to others in the sport and all agree what happened to me was to fast to react to safely.
What I would like is if you have a release system that you use, can you share it? I can't buggy again till I have come up with something that will work with the kite, with me, and with the bug. I could but the wife would have to drive me to the hospital again and I don't think she would drive with any care and concern the 2nd time.

So where you using a strop on a Fixed Bridle hooked in?

Ask BBrex AKA Brad, about his captive QR system. It is what I based mine on. Do a search for QRs and you should find one of his posts.

Buggy Incoming! (all the way at the bottom)

Wichard Shackle Release Ball

Popeye says

Pulley for a strop The bbrex thread.

Hope that helps.

ATB,
Sam

Quote:

Originally posted by pokitetrash So where you using a strop on a Fixed Bridle hooked in?

yes, with a PL roller spreader bar.

I have talked to Brad about his system.

How about a strop that breaks if too much stress is put on it?
I broke my strop several times at Pacific beach that weekend it was blowing 20-25mph. 4mm climbing rope.

vw, that is more along the idea I am following. I am working on a system that will react faster than me. In a split second it is to late.
My thought is as soon as I raise up off the seat a couple of inches it deploys the release. I have some good ideas but I am unable to use my left side yet and I am not able to work with tools either. Besides my wife has been watching to see if anything is moved during the day and I get chewed if I don't just sit and heal, lots of drawings and computer work though.

I can't see how some instant release leash wouldn't get in the way of your normal motions in a buggy. I'd still look into a depowerable - esp. an arc - where releasing the bar would cut enough power to buy time to hit the bar safety.

How about q-power from a wichard QR to a frame rail? Kind of the set up I've seen for hot wire except no hot wire.

(this is rather redundant to the info above - but it looks like we're coming to a consensus)

I had started down this road way back when I used to fly fixed bridles and got smashed up a few times - the conclusion that I came to is that you need an autonomous safety system - one that disengages the power of the kite without the pilot having to do anything. As you have most likely realized is that a smaller kite in faster winds will always win (or at least eventually) in the game of reflexes. I saw a dutch buggier at one point had set up a hotwire system consisting of a strop going through a pully system with a wichard attached to a line connected to the buggy so that in the event of the pilot being lifted from the seat of the buggy the wichard automatically disengaged the pilot from the pully system - can't recall how the kite stayed attached to the pilot. The problem with this setup is that by the time the wichard is activated you may still be catapulted a good distance from the buggy and possibly at speed. I am sure that there will be some good examples of safety equipment to be discussed here - but if you still don't feel 100% about your safety you are welcome to come on over to the D'arc side -

here is the safety release that I use -



and the arcs will give you a much better heads up to when there is going to be a problem than any small fixed bridle will. The nice thing for me now when I go out - I know I can launch my 8m venom in 30 - 35mph winds and go with it - 40mph is just too fast for me - I can just wait for another day. The gear you choose to ride with either extends your comfort zone or limits it.

Man must have been one heck of an OBE! Hope you mend soon!

As for the real fast release, I kind of like the strop break away idea! sounds about as fast as it gets!

I just lost what took me 10 minutes to type, so I will try again.
heli and flexi, you have the right idea. A strap from the bug (where the siderails connect to the down tube) to my harness connected to the wichard that will let go of the pulley if I lift up a couple of inches. and bungee type of kite killers tied back to the frame. Might sound like a mess but on paper it works. I need to physically implement it but at this time can't do it.
I also like the idea of a strop that breaks away at a specific point of pressure, but to much thinking at this time of medication.

Hope your doing better since the accident Bigkid. It would be great if you can come up with an effective safety system but I would add that the best safety system starts with the old melon. Not only knowing when not to fly but always making sure the kite and buggy are always where you need them to be. We all only get hurt when we're doing something we shouldn't be doing (or letting the kite do something it shouldn't be). Leaving the kite at the top of the window in 30+mph winds, letting the kite get behind us without correcting the buggy, flying too close to obstacles in erratic wind etc. etc.. Recently I landed on my head,,,,,and yup,,,,,,,it was because I was doing what I shouldn't have been. Ended up kitelooping the 6.5, kiss knee's, fold up like origami with buggy on top. Ouch!!

It would be great if you come up with a release system that works. Maybe you could market it to the rest of us. I just thought I'd remind us all that safety starts with sound judgement. No release system can ever replace that. Not that I have any after that last crash :puzzled:

Good winds:wee:

I have pondered this same idea of something like a kite killer wristband release that you could yank to disengage the release. I'm thinking Flexi is right. I have an 8m Venom for those days now myself. I'm double quivered to handle most winds with either fb or depower kites, and the 2-4m fb kites scare me the most.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c56mr7xlj8g

http://www.vimeo.com/11045108

Heres a couple of systems that have been made in the past. Both have positive and negitive sides.

in the first video, the system looks good but its the question of "if you can react quick enough that you stay in the buggy?" I doubt it. But you can release yourself from the kite very easy after you hit the ground.
The second system looks a little more promising as far as staying in the buggy BUT!!!!! the system is not good if the kite is above you or behind you. Why you ask? simple If the kite is above you thier is a good chance you are going to eat you wichard when it releases, and if the kite is behind you there is a chance that the strop could get wrapped around your neck and pull you out anyway. So if you want to use a system like this you are taking a chance of getting your jaw broken or even worse getting pulled out by your neck.
I personally have practiced getting pulled out and have learned over time how to keep cool in the situation, since then I havn't been pulled out anymore.
BTW If you get lifted out KEEP COOL you will land again trust me. I have seen so many people get lifted out and then pulled the release while they were still in the air.
Being attached to a kite when your feet are 6 foot above the sand is better than releasing yourself from the only thing that can slow your fall. Keep cool get the kite above you and you will come down slower than without.
Next time you are at the beach practice getting lifted from the siting position, make it routine. Learn buggy control, it is your best weapon against getting lifted.
And please never attach yourself or your kite to a buggy. We have lost enough people already because of this.
Chris

Chris, the 1st vid is OK but not the answer I am looking for. The 2nd vid is close to my thoughts, and the cons on that one is a valid concern. I understand the importance of doing everything right and I am a firm believer in not taking chances, but I don't live in a perfect world.
I was diagnosed with Flail Chest, 9 ribs broke, 14 total breaks. Crap happens and if I can find something that will go 1 step beyond fate, the odds are in my favor.
I desire to continue to be able to buggy and many more things in life and I also need to keep the wife from spending my life insurance.
I will come up with something that will work and work well.
I do appreciate the concern for my well being and quick healing, but I do have a responsibility to everyone around me and if I can design a QR system that works, I will.
I have no desire at all to hook myself to anything more than the parts already hooked to me, so the QR system is that more important to me. I do appreciate your concern and all of those that have voiced concern. I wouldn't be here if I didn't care what people thought.

Hey I just got an Idea. If you took the Idea from the first vid (the one with the stroop that opens) and instead of putting the KK around your arm You put it on the buggy.
That way when it released the stroop would no longer be between the handles and the Wichard would still be hanging on your harness.
You would just have to get the length figured out that it wouldn't release untill you were really on your way out of the buggy.
You could also use a tether line that was very light so that instead of lifting the buggy (in case somthing went wrong) it would break.

Just an idea from me.


You are correct that Crap happens and with our sport comes a handful of danger. We should always really think about what we do for "safety" and really think if it is helping or possibly making our "dangerous" sport even more "dangerous"

I hope you get to get back in a Buggy soon.
Chris

Wow ,

So sorry to hear about your bash up .
Best wishes on your quest for a safe release system.

Interesting concept that pound rated intentional break on the strop ? I like the simplicity. Different lb rating depending on style and rider weight.

Keep those Med's up !

:Ange09:

If your truly looking for saftey vs. cost of it, instead of a strop that breaks, why not just use a set of lines on your power lines that are say 125 or 150 lbs vs the 225 or 250 that many pilots use. When you hit a gust that will lift you, your power lines will pop and kite is dead. I use this as the last step in my hot wire system and have snaped several sets of power lines, in these instances I was not close to activating my system, but better safe than sorry.

Brad

Quote:

Originally posted by bbrex If your truly looking for saftey vs. cost of it, instead of a strop that breaks, why not just use a set of lines on your power lines that are say 125 or 150 lbs vs the 225 or 250 that many pilots use. When you hit a gust that will lift you, your power lines will pop and kite is dead. I use this as the last step in my hot wire system and have snaped several sets of power lines, in these instances I was not close to activating my system, but better safe than sorry. Brad

wow sounds like you have had lots of luck then.
The last time I broke a front line it torn the rear bridle right out of the kite.

I have never damaged a foil only had to replace the line sets. Yes the bridles get all tangled sometimes but nothing a no wind day can't fix.
I've used my hot wire system for 5 or 6 years now and will not buggy without it. It is much safer than using a standard harness system in my opinion.
Brad

Chris, good stuff about the KK connected to the bug.
Brad, I broke a 220 power line on a 4.5 at NABX this year, the strop got hung up at the handle at the harness on the way out of my hand, not sure I want to go in that direction.
I do like the idea of a breakaway strop, I need to research the possibilities some more.
As for the QR system I need to get my left side working so I can use both hands to work out the idea. It's a major ordeal to get in and out of a chair with out screaming let alone a buggy
I would like to see your set up Brad, sit in the bug and think about it with some different scenarios.
I am a hands on person, need to build a mock up to work out the details. Anyone up to being a test crash dummy? I can still dial 911 with my good hand,

I keep thinking about a 5th line attached to a leash on the buggy. I guess the problem is though, how many kites would have to attach that to. I guess part of the answer might be found in what actually injured you. Was it when you landed because of what the kite did, or is it because of the speed you were going in the buggy that caused the most injury? If a 5th line is not possible maybe a system like the PL lines with a brake line through a ring, attached to a leash. I think what you really want to prevent is an OBE. I like the idea that bbrex uses where the lines break with too much weight. Maybe you can make a weak link that will break so it doesn't always ruin your lines.

I don't really know much about buggies yet, but want about a spring loaded clip holding the strop that lets go under too much load? It would be easier too refine and could be adjustable, plus you wouldn't have to replace anything when it gets used.

I found this while googleing. The whole thread is interesting, but the spreader bar looks like exactly what you are looking for.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nak HERE Hi all! I've been keeping a low profile with the KiteRelease because I've had one setback after another with manufacturing. I'm waiting on final samples now, should be here within a week or two. If those are good, and they should be, production will then commence. I'm hoping for availability in June... I've said that before though! I'm working with a new company in Thailand that has been very promising, so hopefully this is really it this time. On the good side, I've got two years of testing under my belt, and I'm really happy with the KiteRelease. My wife, Joanne, probably would have quit by now without it... Her instructor in Isla Blanca was really wowed by it & thought all students should be using one. I have done quite a bit of testing with different loads encountered. Lofting is pretty easy, To go up the force exerted by the kite must exceed your body-weight, including all gear. Dragging is more complicated. In level sand, a kiter on his/her feet tends to start dragging at line tension of about 80% body-weight. By using proper technique, you can keep the speed very low until line tension bumps up to about 110%. This is assuming a low kite position. Different surfaces can change this rather dramatically, with slimy mud or ice being worst case scenarios. Waterstarts can be accomplished, carefully and gently, with as little as 60% line tension, but aggressive waterstarts can exceed 120%. I've not tested line tension during kiteloops and such, but simple physics can be used to analyze these forces. Depending on the rider, my opinion is that 300% is close to the limit of what you will experience. I say that because 3 "Gs" is about the limit of what an untrained individual can experience without blacking out, and then only for short times. Very aggressive riders may possibly experience very short term loads even higher than this. (Think Ruben Lenten.) In my opinion, any "fuse" needs to release at 80% body-weight for a beginner, and between 80% and 100% for an advanced rider, depending on the de-power capability of the kite. Certain circumstances may require even higher release settings for advanced riders. Of course, these numbers only apply while launching/landing. While riding a beginner will require a release of at least 120%, whereas an intermediate/advanced rider will probably require the "fuse" to be locked. Using release tensions less than these numbers will result in inadvertent/unnecessary releases, with the end result being that the rider will disable the fuse to avoid nuisance releases. The KiteRelease accomodates all of this by being individually calibrated to each rider. The rider asses the current circumstances and engages one of four easily selectable modes: Manual Release: Self Explanatory Automatic Release-Launch: Calibrated to 80% - 100% of YOUR body-weight. Used during Launch and landing to help prevent injury- --or worse-- in the event of a serious incident. (Extreme gust, bridle wrapped on a wingtip, etc.) Automatic Release-Ride: Adds about 50% tension to the release. Used by beginners/intermediates while riding, or by advances riders in conditions that warrant the added safety of automatic release. Lock: Self explanatory. Tested not to release at loads of 1000 pounds. Used for advanced riding/jumping. In the real world, the primary safety device is the rider's brain. The KiteRelease, when properly used, can help prevent accidents. However, it's up to the rider to recognize and react to risky situations. Nak

Sports Safety Designs LLC
2512 NW 37th Ave
Camas, WA 98607
360-910-6085
Inventor of kiterelease
That is about all the info I could find to contact them. I haven't called.

I saw that a while ago, not quite the same as f/b set up. Kind of apples and oranges.
He did a lot of leg work though.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid I saw that a while ago, not quite the same as f/b set up. Kind of apples and oranges. He did a lot of leg work though.

Put your strop through a ronstan pulley on a D-shackle?

These are all great ideas and all have pos and neg things to them. but honestly I think if you want the ultimate in safety you need to build a full roll cage around the buggy and strap yourself in with a 3 point safety harness. I'm not kidding :singing:

Jeff talked to me on the phone about this the other day and he mentioned a roll cage. I didn't think much of it, but then it hit me as a good idea if you are concerned about bodily damage. It would be no different than a race car, baja truck, dunebuggy, etc.

This way you will not come out of the buggy. You will be locked in it. If something goes wrong with the kite where in a normal situation you would have an obe in this buggy the worse that would happen is you might roll over.

Just a thought.

As a suggestion, if your intent is to make it 100% automatic and independant of your input you will need to put the release system somewhere between the front of your handles and your kite. Making something that releases a strop or pulley doesn't eliminate our poor human reflexes of holding onto the handles too long. In nasty conditions, even those with superman reflexes will still be 4 ft in the air before you let go of the handles even though the safety did its job and released after your butt was 2" out of your seat. So it might be useful to focus on making a link that resides somewhere between your handles and the kite. Perhaps like the second video Chris posted you could attatch a leash to the buggy and the other end of the leash could go to where your top lines attach to your handles. This way the safety can release independant of whether or not you release the handles.

Just my 2 cents:karate: