Ok, here's something I've been wondering about since I got a 16m VenomII - should I get smaller arcs for use in higher winds or stick with the foils I have?
My concern with smaller arcs on the snow and ice is how do you relaunch them in high winds when something goes wrong and you need to stop and sort things out? The only thing I carry is an ice screw, which works great for holding down a foil but I can't picture how to deal with a small arc in gusty high wind conditions. Will they auto-zenith well in those conditons?
Bruce

I have a 9m Guerilla 2 and 6 m Hi-Arc that autozenith and are very stable laterally in hi, gusty winds. Launching them in these conditions is a bit of a challenge in winter, just like in summer. At least in hi winds they fill better and you have less chance of a bowtie or inversion before they get enough forward speed to tighten up completely. Once airborne, they have all the gust-munching and depower capabilities that you lack in a fixed bridle foil.

BTW, I find these two kites fly fine on extra long handles as well as a long-throw bar setup. Your steering is really all through the brakes on handles. Let both rear lines go slack and they depower just as if the trim strap was pulled in and the bar let out.

krumly

So Krumly, I'm curious to know your launching technique when you're away from your start point and don't have a weight of some kind to hold down the kite. All I can think of is to put the loop on an ice screw and launch the kite from the side of the window and try to auto zenith it then go back and hook in.

Bmor -

I snowkite on MN lakes. Often very little snow depth, or even lots of exposed ice 'cuz snow is windblown. So I always carry a screw with me, even if I leave one fixed at my set-up area. In those conditions using a ski, board, or pack as a snow anchor isn't an option.

Doing a standard 'flagged' launch of an arc is a PITA when you don't have snow to put over the folded upwind tip. I have a couple 4' long lengths of 1/4" chain in 3mm wetsuit neoprene tubes I use for weights, but if it's really gusty or you're on ice, the kite can blow right out from under them even if flagged. They weigh about 7#, so you need to carry them in a pack.

Trying to launch from the side of the window in those conditions is also problematic, 'cuz if it's blowing hard, and it's slick with no snowcover, the kite will drift straight downwind. You need an assisted launch in those conditions.

kruimly

Exact same conditions here, glare ice to a foot of snow sometimes. Interesting idea about the chains. I could see that as possible with some kind of snow cover.

I understand what you are saying about the kite drifting downwind when trying to self launch. I noticed that when trying it with the 16m V2. It worked but the winds were lighter so not the same situation.

I was wondering if you could safely launch and stall the kite just off the ground so it doesn't rocket to the zenith and pull the screw out or break something.

What if you had a section of solid steel bar( 8" or so) with a ring welded onto it.

Walk down the lines if crashed, taco the kite, put the leading edge pig tails thru the ring on the bar with a slip knot loop set up and let it hold the kite down in the taco shape then go back and launch.

Now you got to retrieve your bar.

I dunno, just thinking about that after reading ya post.

I'm not the most experienced Arc flier by any means, but I've found trying to do a solo launch from a typical downwind, leading edge up position impossible. Especially with an old kite like the HiArc 6, which has such short tip spars and so much kite ahead of the front line tip attachemnt points, you just can't make the kite sit-up and stand still like a foil. Pulling on the front lines doesn't let you pump and fluff the leading edge to fill it like on a foil. Plus the way to get an Arc launched is to really horse in on the front lines, playing that edge between front and rears to get it moving fast while having minimal no steering for a bit.

I find launching them in gusty slick conditions to be much more difficult than foils, but the catch 22 is how well they behave and how much range they have in those condistions once they ARE launched as compared to my FB foils. If anyone else has alternatives, please post!

krumly

There are some folks, including PL himself, working on minimally supported front bridles for Arcs to alllow them to fly single line and to launch on a single line. I am working on this with limited success, but have hopes it will offer an alternative to the current launch methods.

I am currently uploading a vid of a technique I used to use at the beach when self launching arcs. How sturdy are the ice screws that were mentioned earlier? How far do they screw into the ice? I'll post the video, which is pretty self explanatory, as soon as its available.

Here's the vid

I have had my ice screw pull out when my 10m arc acted up and wasn't finding it's auto zenith. It is a pretty long screw but it was a pretty warm day so not the hardest ice?

I had my kite power up after hanging to the side and then "run" up to zenith - pulled the anchor up lickedy split, but I also didn't have the kite depowered, forgot to adjust the trim strap. I've had it on this hook, bobbing around, shifting to one side then going to zenith, but as long as it's depowered I never had it pop the anchor out.

Flexiblade -

Before you posted the video I sort of wondered if you weren't thinking in terms of 'assisted solo launch' where the kiter releases the kite to a fixed anchor. With Bladerunner - a good chromoly screw can hold hundreds of pounds, but it's about screw length and ice conditions.

To date I've only used the screw as I typically would a dog stake or golf ball stake - something to tie off a depowered or flagged kite to. Your technique looks worth trying out here, though I'll be nervous in high, gusty inland winds (gotta love the coast...). The the Farc 12, although very stable up there, pulls like heck as it rips through the window depowered - more so than the G1 13m I think, due to sheer speed and higher AR. You tried this method with your Phantom?

Bladerunner - would the Chargers autozenith and sit up there like the older Arcs?

krumly

not an arc or foil but a one pump inflatable could/should make for a great snow kite.................solo launches/landings with the newer inflates are pretty simple................gusts are eaten and the bar/safety systems are awesome................
:shocked2::duh:

Hey Bruce
If you are out riding Rice Lake you are likely getting the same kind of conditions we are getting a little further west on Luther Marsh - either lighter winds with holes (these are the days when you have a better chance of having a kite go down in a wind shadow) or high very gusty winds. Overall in the last few years the trend for us has been only to use the very large open cell foils on the light wind days for most power and easy of launch etc and then the twinskins upward. On those high gusty wind days you might have a bouncy kite and launch issues but the riding experience is 100% better. Once out riding we go all day on the twinskins and they are great for that gusty crap and you can have all the power you want at those times you want it. The foils will surge, collapse, ball up etc and you never quite have the right size for the wind - ripping out of your hands then perfect, then too small etc. and you end up relaunching the foil dozens of times. There are degrees of frustration - the twinskins will be on launch but riding is a dream - the foils is the other way around.
(But that is riding in our crap high gusty winter winds that are all over the place)
With more experience on them it's really very rare that you should have a kite come down.

Relaunching with snow isn't an issue - sliding on bare ice would be. We are usually out in a group so I'm the guy heading over to help a relaunch off ice and if they can't get it themselves then I park my kite at zenith and lend a hand. That doesn't help when you are by yourself

If you are undecided by winter you are more than welcome to meet half way sometime and take out any of the smaller twinskins I have with me - usually have a few sizes and different models sitting in the car or on the lake. Gotta post of vid of one of the last late winter days when we had about 12 twinskins on Luther with everything from Phantom, V2, Scorpion, Synergy, Chargers out
Mark

I haven't had a 10m arc in anything but my Charger . It's auto zenith is there but a step back I'm sure. ( I don't trust it ) On the day it pulled the ice screw the wind was moving in and out of it's minimum for auto zenith. The wind dropped then pick up at the wron moment. It crashed violently then bounced and shot accross the top at full speed. The screw was pulled straight up and the ice was getting very soft. It is a pretty long screw though? :dunno:

My 10m Charger and 7m Pulse are completely different animals. I would take the Charger in gusty winds but the Pulse is more user friendly in the clean stuff.

Sounds like Markite pretty well verifies my assumptions on arcs vs depower foils in gusty stuff.

Tridude - I've actually been using my (older) Cabrinha bows a lot for snow kiting. You're right about the huge depwoer range and easy depower solo launches - you can park them on the ground sitting up right at the edge of the window. But they aren't autostabe and they don't autozenith. I think the fact that an LEI has its C of G so far forward - ahead of the center of lateral reistance as the kite yaws - prevents auto zenith. And most - at least my bows - don't have reflexed foils that 'munch' gusts and prevent overflying. Easy to depower, but you have to be on top of the bar, where as my Arcs take care of themselves if they approach the edge of the window.

krumly

Lots of interesting comments, thanks for the input! I like the de-powerable foils for their ease of set-up, launch and landing and I have no complaints about the Pansh BlazeII performance in windy conditions. I self launch my bows off an anchor on the beach in some fairly gusty conditions but don't really want to have to pump up a kite in cold weather, plus sometimes the surface conditions are rough and not LEI friendly. What impressed me about the 16m VII last winter was the range of the kite. I was flying it when people were on 5 & 7m foils. I guess I'll have to get a smaller arc and just try it.

Mark, thanks for the offer. If we get some decent conditions next winter I may have to take you up on it.