So took my new secondhand Rebble out into the park today and... well if there was ever a day when i thought "whos bright idea was kites as a new hobby!" then this was it.

Firstly i unpacked the kite and when i unwound the lines it was a disaster. I purposely spent an hour the day before making sure nothing was tangled when i setup kite and packed it. But today in the park, well as i unwound the lines all 4 lines was twisted together badly from kite to handles, probably some 40+ twists. So i had the idea of walking down the lines thinking i could simply untwist them. Hmm nope ended up with huge clumps of knotted lines. Anyway long and short of it, spent over an hour sat in the park untangling lines, i was so frustrated, total embaressing as everyone around the park probably thinking "that guy unfolded a kite over an hour ago what IS he doing!". I purposely spent two hours yesterday watching youtube videos and reading guides linked from here on how best to pack lines, so this DIDNT happen, somehow i dont know, it was a total disaster. (FYI i used the sock over handles method and figure 8 the lines over it, screwed up somehow.)


Ok, so secondaly after all the line tangles mess, i then had problem two... Namely i couldnt get it to fly or even launch at all. :puzzled: Now the wind was causing all the flags around the park to flutter voilently and even the brake lines were blowing in the wind, and the local weather sites have the wind at average 15mph gusting to 25mph so i figured for a novice and a 3.5m kite it would do fine. Nope, something must be wrong the kite hardly even inflated i had the handles virtually horizontal with the brakes pointing at the kite. It kind of stood up and semi inflated a couple of times but as i tried to launch it, it just dragged itself along the grass (after 15min i ended up about 400m from my bag etc walking backwards!). I did notice the KK seemed taught, almost like they were applying the brakes? I have the KK right on the end of the leaders with the brake lines, and even with the 16in-ish KK leads (PL Killers) they seemd fairly taught? I checked the bridles, the brake lines are fixed at the very end knot, so seems no further adjustment there? What do i do? Do you think it was the brake lines causing my lack of launch, or wind, or well what else should i check? It almost seemed like the KK are too short to me? as i kept almost getting tangled holding the handles with the KK leads, i see others videos etc and there KK leads hang down low under handles, mine seemed to be dead straight almost tight between my wrists and the Lines? I in hindsight should have taken the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s off and tried that i suppose..

Anyway, after the tangles and 15min trying to launch i had too much frustration, i gave up packed the kite up, took all 4 lines off and wound them seperaetly onto winders! (seems less hassle to re-attach all 4 rather than untangle lines to me).

After a week of excitement waiting to get out there, i now well totally fed up right now, sure it will pass....

Any ideas? Thanks guys....

Add some pigtails to your kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s so in normal flying position you have slack in the leaders and in reality you should measure across your kite and set the kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s to that length so you get full flag or a little more or the kite will flag violently instead of just laying down, when winding your lines only fig 8s or parapacking will ensure tangle free deployment, fig8s are hard with handles but can be done but parapacking is fast and easy with practice

We've all had the same frustrations in the beginning ... find your Zen point and develop the saintly patience we all have now

KKs were too tight.

Try parapacking - I've NEVER had any luck with winding lines onto handles either ...

What's parapacking?

Oh forgot to add - do you have a stake? If not, get one ...

Parapacking - folding the kite carefully so the bridles are wrapped up, putting it in the bag, then stuffing in the lines and finally, putting the hand in on the opposite side of the kite to the lines ...

Don't unattach the lines and use the sock technique. The day I went to this I have not had a problem since. We have all been where you were P#$#ed at the lines and swearing we put it away correctly.

KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s on the inside of the sock around the handles holding them together....figure eight the lines on the outside. Fold the socks up in the kite keeping them separate from the bridals....

It will be better next time.

Wow, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your bad experience I know how much it sucks to walk away completely disappointed. Here's a few things you can do:

Lines: I have the most success putting the lines onto winders. Front lines on one, back lines on the other. I hold the winder vertically in my left hand by the top prong with the rounded-edge side facing outward. Then, I take the lines in my right hand, and as I wrap them onto the winder, I keep one finger between them so they go on nice and evenly without twists. For this I use the figure-8; it's very fast and easy to do with some practice. Wrapping them straight around the winder without overlapping the lines is a great way to ensure a ridiculous amount of tangles, so do the figure-8

KKs: Yes, your KKs were simply too tight. Contrary to popular belief, putting them on the loops at the back of the bottom of your handles will work just fine. Regardless of whether their attached to the rear line leaders or the loops, if you let go, the weight will be taken off of the front lines and the breaks will be wrenched in, flagging the kite. If it's a matter of saving your life, it doesn't matter how beautifully or perfectly or gently the kite flags, the point is it works. I prefer putting the KKs on the bottom loops because it's easy to attach there, and they're out of the way. You may get told not to detach your lines from the kite... I don't seen the point in this, I actually find it much easier to completely detach them each time. Sometimes folding the kite around a pair of handles or line winders is a pain and you can damage something. Also, depending on the wind conditions, you may need to adjust the position of your lines on your leader knots. So it's worth the extra 20 seconds to attach and detach them.

The main thing you want to do is keep tension on your front lines. When the kite is puffed up and filled with air, you know it's going to fly. The moment you see it deflate and look kind of flat and sucked in, you'll know that you're putting too much tension on those rear lines, and the kite will fall. Make sure you hold the handles at the top. Fly with your fingertips, don't have a death grip on them. I usually have my index finger pressed against the front line leaders and my thumb on top of the handle.

Hope that helps! Sorry for your crappy day! Things will get better :bigok:

I use the exact same method as Txshooter38 and it works great. Never more than a few twists. After staking the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s and running down the lines (one side in either hand) SHAKING the lines as you go then turning the FOLDED/BAGGED kite over to untwist its time to lay the kite out and fly!

haha i had the same thing today with my new venom i finally just gave up

and instead of winding all of your lines seperate just seperate them by handle (right power and brake together left power and brake)

also and easy way to wind them is get some thin pvc pipe just big enough to fit over the top of the handle and stop at the leader lines but stick over about and inch or so then cut V shapes on all four of the pipes then put them on both tips of the handles and you have easy winders! :tumble:

i can post pics if necessary

and dont flame me for this but i cant stand using KKs cuz they allways tangle me up in them so i just dont use them.... except on the beach when there are people around

Thanks guys you put a smile on my face and I feel better, tomorrows another day!
Move or adjust the KK tomorrow and practice winding lines! Haha

woooo this is the ghost of christmas erm tomorrow woooo you should have tried parapacking

Seriously, get a tent peg and stake your lines - it's easier to work out tangles with at least one handle staked.

Have fun soon all will be clear

go to www.coastalwindsports.com

and print off tutorials use them as your kiting bible.

It works.

I feel your pain!!! I once unwound the lines on a demo kite, they had been wrapped 'round & 'round the handles. I unwound them the wrong way and put one twist in the lines for every 'un'wrap. Took me a good 40minutes to sort it out. I've never had a problem with the figure 8's so I'm not sure what went wrong there. Always unwind the exact opposite of what you wound up - usually works! When you stake the kite, don't stake the kite killers, put the stake through the brake lines. Some kite killers use shock cord - this can break. If you haven't seen this: How I launch & land video It might help. Hopefully, it wasn't what stuffed you up in the first place!!

Keep at it!

and ps: don't use a black stake like I did - you'll end up tripping over it

Lots of good advice on how to pack and unpack your lines. Sorry about the nightmare, that sucks.

A 3.5m kite in 15-25mph winds... Too much kite, imo. Unless you weigh over 250lbs. I would advise not flying that kite in more than 15mph until you are used to it. I would fly that kite in 5-10mph until you are good and comfortable with it, then look at flying 10-15mph as this will be the sweet spot for it. 15-20mph is going to be a nice amount of power but not overpowering...

Best of luck!

I second Ragden on this. Especially for a beginner that's some stout wind for static flying a 3.5m. Our 2m Ozone Sammy will lift me if I snap it over head in those winds and I'm over 200lbs.

A small kite in those winds moves pretty fast and things can go bad before you even realize.

If you were on a board and moving with a solid handling foundation under your belt then that kite/wind combo would be sweet but I think a bit much for a beginner trying to hold position. I think you lucked out. ;-)

Packing up

Land the kite
Take bag and bag the kite
Grab handles in left hand at the bottom of handles and roll all lines together while walking to kite
Slide handles down the side of kite, be careful not to put it through the bridles

Unpack

Pull handles from bag
Grab bottom of handles in left hand
Walk backwards while unwinding lines with right hand
Peg handles
Shake kite out of bag

I guarantee you wont have more than two twists. If you do, grab handles together and spin once or twice. This is the easiest method . If you are left handed grab handles in opposite hand. The secret is to hold the handles in the same hand on the same part of the handle. Hope this helps to add to enjoyment of kiting.

Cheers
D

I think you fell victim to the vicious "false twist"; a subversive plot brought to us by the same people that gave us famine, plague and Barry Manilow. Think about this for a moment: Unless you are doing cartwheels and summersaults while winding your lines, it is physically, morally, mathematically, and astronomically impossible to twist your lines when winding. What happens is that they get interwoven and interlocked along segments and they just appear to be twisted. This can happen more with new lines that are still sticky with sizing- an ironic curse for the beginner with a brand new kite. You then take the bait and start to "untwist them", introducing real twists that were never there in the first place. Then it goes downhill from there and a brain anurism or a Tea Party rally suddenly seems more appealing.

Find a method and follow it religiously, and most important, learn to do it backwards when setting up your kite, repeating every small movement and motion - but backwards - when setting up - even if means walking funny.

I use the figure-8 method but some people - and even some manufacturers suggest - winding straight around the handles. This introduces a twist for sure but it is untwisted when you set up as long as you use the same hands. With the the figure-8, you twist a little to the left then a little to the right - and on and on - but it all falls out when you set up.

The only time I have trouble unwinding lines is when a well-meaning "helper" packed a kite for me and I don't know what motions to repeat or what hands to use when un-winding.

I keep the kite folded and weighted with a water bottle to keep the wind out, unwind the lines, stake the handles at the brakes (not the "breaks" - God I hate that almost as much as "Bridals"), then go back and unfurl the kite. Usually the lines pop apart straight and true all the way to the handles - yes, even with kite killers. If the lines appear twisted (they're NOT!!!!) I pick up the handles, spread my arms and shake them out.

This works 99% of the time, and the other 1% there is usually a simple 1/2 twist in one of the line sets that is easily identified and rectified. All that means is that I got distracted and made some odd motion that I did not know to undo when setting up.

Don't worry- it gets better and the demons will recede.

Good luck

http://www.coastalwindsports.com/101FirstFlight4LineHandles....

I'm the old school handles together and wrap the top of the handles and have never had a problem myself other than a couple of twists - But unless you fasten your bridle and flying lines onto a velcro tab on the kite some lines and bridles have a greater tendency to transmit that twist up into the bridle as you wind the lines. It will come out but you could have some bridle caught on a big big knot - so one thing to watch for as you start to unwind the first few feet.

If you do use the wrap method, I have had the situation with a lot of twists when someone else has used my kite and wound the lines. If you unwind and see the zillion twists (you will know by the time you have unwound 10-15 feet) - STOP - and rewind the line back on - doing the exact same thing you were doing to unwind, but walk backwards and wind back on.
Once wound back up, switch hands and unwind - believe it or not it works. Untwisting when fully unwound does take a long time and you can keep both handles together with tension at the other end of the lines and spin the handles.

Try some of the other methods mentioned to see what works for you.
- also agree the comments on the wind conditions for the size of kite.
- also look for adjustment knots anywhere on the kite bridle leads or handle leads to move your bottom lines longer or top lines shorter.

Damn, Angus beat me too it

...me type slow...

I really like MarS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s idea of noting the bad twists when un-winding someone else's wind, then re-winding, swapping hands and starting over. Makes perfect sense.

Every year it happens at JIBE that I have a zillion kites laid out by the end of the day and volunteers often help me pack some kites away. Then a month or so later when I go to fly one of those kites, I bet you can hear the screams from the end of the Jekyll Island Causeway. I'm not complaining about the gracious assistance - I just need to make note about how they are wound.

When I ship a used kite to a customer, I always now include a note indicating which hands were used for winding.

:D parapack - then you don't need to know which way the lines are wound just make sure the lines come out of the kite at the bottom when you put the kite in the bag ...

I reckon 90% of the reason people sell fixed bridle kites is that they can't be bothered untangling the lines

When I used to fly fixed-bridle kites, I used to have this problem from time ot time... Though, to be honest, I usually pulled the handles (with lines figure-eighted onto them) out of the bag and proceeded to kick them across the field/beach. As you can imagine, there was normally a couple twists. Once the lines were tensioned though, it never took long to get the twists out...

Flying depower, I almost never have this problem, unless the kite spun or did something crazy when it was landed... But then its as simple as spinning the bar and voila, done...

Just because flags are flying doesn't mean there is wind on the ground.

Was you location correct. NO obstructions for 7 times the height downwind ? Houses etc will block + mess up wind down low. If you have ample room downwind there is no rule that says you must use killers. If you think they are the problem you are allowed to fly without ( with a helmet on :wink2 . Then add them again .

If all else is failing , go to strictly 2 line . Nearly every problem has to do with the brakes . Eliminate any possible issue with them 1st. Twisted bridle is #2 most common issue.

Like Kami says. Find a kite Zen. Take time when frustarted to look back and seehow far you have actually come.

Best is having somebody there but we are here to help you along any time.

@john - thanks i did see your video before i had this tangle.

@nocando - Believe it or not, i was using Angus method from those tutorials, i think in my mind i have all the theory sorted, just cant seem to translate that in practice to my hands! ha

@Kamikuza - I have a couple of PL stakes that came with the kite, they seem so big for a hard ground park that i been using normal tent pegs so far....

@ragden - I am ashamed to say i am over 250pounds yes, in fact nearer 300, so hoping i can keep feet planted ok! (hence i not cut out for surfing etc hahaha)

Well thanks everyone for your tips, so many different ideas there, i will have to sort through them. As i said i read every tutorial i could before last week, and i was "trying" to use the methods on Angus's tutorial pages, but somewhere my hand movements and wrist did something to screw it all up, i have the theory spent hours reading and watching guides, i think its as someone said just finding the Zen and practice. I wait til the weekend and hope the weather plays ball for another attempt or two.

I am thinking Bladerunner above might have some points, i am starting to think its a combination of both the KK/Brakes problem AND maybe lack wind on the ground? The park is pretty big but is in a city centre so maybe its just not cut out for it... Although that will be a big blow if it is the case, as other than that park its a 2hr drive to the beach and wont get to fly very often at all.. /bugger

Heres to the weekend.....

Only 2hrs to the beach? Most places I ride are 3+hrs to get to. Thats just the nature of the beast when you live in a big city (Washington DC?.. doh).

I personally think the drive is worth the trip 9 times out of 10.

Nothing wrong with being a big kiter. With the right gear, you could get out on the water... There is more gear being made for larger riders these days. You could definitely pull it off if you had the desire...

I certainly hope your next trip is better than your last. Best of luck!

My local beach is also 2 hours drive (very nearly) but the difference in flying in gusty crud (and I'm on a farm with an unobstructed view to the horizon in a lot of wind directions) and flying in onshore winds is an absolute revelation.

You'll have all sorts of pockets of warm air rising from buildings and roads with cooler air rushing in to fill the gap creating all sorts of messed up wind plus all the physical obstructions.

If you find your kite shoots forward then folds into a shopping bag from time to time then that will most likely be the wind in your area. Check your local beach forecast for onshore winds and take advantage of them when you can.

A small wind sock or streamer or kite tail hung from a fishing rod or similar (at your local field) will tell you a lot about your wind.

Bollocks, sounds like you weigh what I do and I kitesurf just fine. With really big kites and really big boards :ticking:

Think of wind as water coming down a steam. Picture what the obstructions upwind do to water downstream of them. Try and get about 7 times the height of upwind obstructions clear. The trick is you still want double your line length downwind as well.

Often you will have good clean wind up higher while it is still junk down low.

Don't get discouraged , once you " get it " you'll be hooked!

Kiting is a beauty sport for large folks. You can enjoy any of the many ways to ride the wind. Kami is a great example of do it all In LARGE !!! All but buggy , I think ?

The people shooting for the land speed record in a kitebuggy are all big boys. Little guys like Rip' are allowed to add weight.

6 hours to the beach for us ! 2 hours to snowkiting 2.5 months a year.

Yeah, no chance yet for the buggy ... I actually found someone with the remains of a PL Big Foot but he threw a hissy fit and how we don't talk

Ok, so i may have incorrectly pictured all these kite surfers as athletic slim jim's :shocked2: my bad... Although i can assure you i still wont ever be on the water, just not a water person, hate swimming, hates boats etc.. Buggies yeah maybe... haha

I might have to make a long stick and ribbon as John suggested, i really having trouble gauging wind speed etc right now, even considering one of those hand-held wind meters maybe..?