I've flown on both bar and handles now and I see the fine control you have with handles. They are harder to hold onto in power situations I've noticed. Strapping into a harness would make a big difference I image, but I've always wondered:

if you're flying on handles hooked in with a strop under powered conditions...doesn't it want to slam your hands together when it pulls on the strop? Seems like (without ever having used one) that you would have to hold constant outward pressure on the handles to keep them from being right next to each other in front of you.

The handles do end up close together, just inches apart... I angle the brake ends of the handles out a bit so they are further apart than the powers, keeps interference down to a minimum. But yes your fists on the handles will be just an inch or so apart, and travel in two quite close parallel lines.

Handles are more control, but more of a workout! PKF recommends grip-strength! http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=16411

@ EWinds... I agree definitely on handles vs bar, but J is talking about handles stropped hooked in... Not so much need for the ironman / popeye arms in that case...

@ J: I find flying handles on a strop to be a bit of a PITA when flying static, the range of movement is less, but still better than a bar... And it can be a little dangerous when starting out static as well, do you have any kind of quick release in your system?

@furbowski:

I don't have any kind of harness system yet.

When I get one, not only will it have a quick release system (at least one), but I won't use the harness until I can release it upside-down, blindfolded, with my pants on fire and my wife yelling at me. :shocked2:

Oh, and I think having been a drummer for 26 years now...I'm probably covered on the grip-strength.

Man, it's hard to with the wife yelling at you.

Many riders with handles and strop will hold the handles parallel to the ground with tops close together and bottoms pointing out. This accommodates the strop ends and handle tops wanting to be close together yet allows some range of motion with the brakes. Also keeps the handle bottoms out of your lap in the buggy. Some call this the "European style".

The new Peter Lynn Longhorn handles have the strops attached at the very tops of the handles so that all fingers are below the strop to accommodate this style with strop ends together.

As for safety release I have multi options. Te fastest is I just loop my strop over the tops of my handles and I fly with my thumbs on top of the handle to hold the strop in place. If (when) in trouble I just let go and the strop comes off. This is where killers come into play, Wright Donnie :moon:

With all the arguments over bar vs. handles...handles vs. bars...I've wondered why there is nothing on the market like this:
(my design)

http://01f377a.netsolhost.com/pkf/j0fer-handles-web.m4v

Is that strop rigid?

Yes. It could be a bar, or a CNC cut billet aluminum, or carbon fiber.

I neglected to model a harness hook on the crossbar.

I also was thinking of an insert connecting two halves of the crossbar so that you could have different length inserts and adjust the distance between the handles by swapping the inserts.

Wow, that's cool!! Love the graphic

Here's my take on it. Handles give you more control, but wear out your arms. A strop will eliminate that problem by putting the weight of the kite at your center of gravity, and to an extent, makes the kite fly better because of the constant tension on the front lines.

With a bar, you get less control, and it wears out your arms just slightly less. The main reason people use a bar on fixed bridle kites (I think) is because they're trying to train for kite surfing (with the exception of a Turbo bar).

The majority of people flying on a bar are using a depower kite. Unless you're flying unhooked, all of the weight of the kite is always at your center of gravity, and the bar is only used to control the kite instead of absorbing its pull as well.

If you aren't flying depower, just use handles and a strop. Plus, since you need the harness to hook in with the strop, you won't need to buy it later on when you "step up" to a sheetable kite. Learning on handles is excellent experience. I think people make it seem like flying a depower kite is harder than it actually is. With a bar, all you have to do is pull it left to turn left and right to turn right.

BTW, the harness doesn't have a release on it. If you want to make a release, it would have to be in the strop. Fur is right... bar/stropped handles are better for when you're moving. But you can still fly static with both of them. Maybe even better WITH a strop as opposed to without one, due to the effect I mentioned before: constant tension on the front lines = more stability.

Easy to make strop release

Yes, but if you've been riding motorcycles all your life like I have...it sort of wigs you out to have your hands on bars (handles) and have your hands just flopping around, unjoined.

I like holding a bar, but I also like the independent control of the brakes I have with handles.

My other idea is to add individual brake controls to a solid bar, via possible some kind of handles (think brake and clutch on a motorcycle). I've yet to sketch that up.

(I'm not unsatisfyable, wanting the best of both worlds...I just enjoy tinkering)

Crossover bars and the Ozone Turbo bar give you more control over the brakes and sharper turning.

Check this out:

Radsails crossover bar

Ozone Turbo bar

Yep...but again...they do it *for* you. Not independent control of the brakes...just an adjustable biasing system between power/brake.

Quote:

Originally posted by j0fer With all the arguments over bar vs. handles...handles vs. bars...I've wondered why there is nothing on the market like this: (my design) http://01f377a.netsolhost.com/pkf/j0fer-handles-web.m4v

My biggest fear is the amount of damage that setup could do to soft tissue in a OBE, board bail, boost tumble or even just a sudden gust of gravity while flying static.

ATB,
Sam

I spent a bunch of time and a bit of money trying to convince myself that a bar and fixed bridle was a good thing. I was wrong , just like everybody told me !
What I learned:
If you want to fly a bar buy a depower !!!!!!!
Hold your handles with tops together like a bar but not joined.
Spending all that time trying to make a bar work was slowing my REAL learning. How to fly proper.
I was just trying to make aids to compinsate for lack of skills.

Quote:

and to an extent, makes the kite fly better because of the constant tension on the front lines. Maybe even better WITH a strop as opposed to without one, due to the effect I mentioned before: constant tension on the front lines = more stability.

Can't agree with this, exactly.... The strop doesn't make the kite fly better just because you use it, in fact it's a little harder. The pilot needs to fly the kite so that constant tension is maintained on the front lines, the strop however will not automatically keep tension on the front lines. In other words the strop demands that the pilot alter his/her style to get the most out of the kite, same could be said of either the crossover FB bar set up or the depower bar set-up.

Not saying it goes for all kites, but for my Twisters, I find that they fly much better on a strop. Because they pull so hard on the front lines, and you have to work hard to keep the tops of the handles pointed toward you and avoid accidental brake input, having a strop to act like a set of hands definitely seems to help. I can go hands-free for a good chunk of time and know the kite will stay in the window. I much prefer flying them on a strop, more so because of the improved stability than the beating it puts on your arms. With the Twisters at least it seems that a strop DOES automatically keep tension on the front lines.

My strop is also quite short, and keep in mind that I landboard, not buggy. I am not sure if those are determining factors, but I wanted to lay all the information on the table to avoid confusion.

Seanny,

Part of the advantage I've seen with handles is the unfettered tactile feedback from the kite. Curiously, does a strop/harness setup reduce that? I would think it has to a bit.

It does, but it depends. You will never have as much free range of motion with something linking the handles together as you do with your arms completely free. But it really doesn't decrease the range of motion all that much, especially if you use a long strop. You get the exact same feedback from the kite even with a strop, although you feel it in a different way because the kite is pulling at your midsection and not your arms. The strop provides extra tension on the front lines, so you don't have to work as hard to keep them pulled back. If you need to turn with the brakes, just release your grip a little and turn like you normally would. It makes things much more simple. A strop won't restrict you from doing anything you wouldn't normally do without it, e.g. you won't be able to spread your arms apart and control the kite like it's on a steering wheel, but an experienced flyer wouldn't do that anyway. Instead, your handles stay in a neutral position right in front of you, and all you have to do is grab onto them and apply a slight amount of pressure to get the kite moving. You don't have to worry about keeping your arms and hands level to keep the kite steady because the strop does that for you.

You've just gotta give it a try. :P

I'm sure I will...but let me tinker for a while while my bubble is still intact.

Quote:

Because they pull so hard on the front lines, and you have to work hard to keep the tops of the handles pointed toward you and avoid accidental brake input With the Twisters at least it seems that a strop DOES automatically keep tension on the front lines.

I've got a Twister II 4.1 and yup it is just about the strongest frontline bias kite I have, also turns better on just the frontline input than most of my other kites. I mostly fly it for static jump fun on the beach and for that I shorten the powers a few inches so the accidental brake input is eliminated. On the landboard I need more brake input to place the kite so then I put the kite right back onto stock setting. But I have light winds usually so I'm more likely to be on a 6.5 or an 8. I should say I'm just starting out on landboard, no airs yet on my transitions and mowing the lawn puts the kitegrin on my face just fine still.

I reckon we're talking about two slightly different things... I'm talking about keeping the kite a bit away from the edges of the window so the powers never go slack -- no way will using a strop eliminate this on its own. However, what i think you are saying is that while flying yours anywhere in the window the strop will keep the tension on the front lines and off the brakes, and yes I agree with that.

As far as tactile, I much prefer using a roller than a hook, no friction while pulling the strop through. A strop does make it easier for me to fine tune the brake line tension as needed, just because my hands are only concerned with guiding the handles where I want them to go, no need to deal with the pull at the same time, the harness does that. With everything else we seem to be on the same page...

@ jofer: best of luck with your bubble! The wind will pop it someday, not us...

Just as an aside...I'm cutting down an old hang gliding harness I have to make a seat harness (I'm bringing the wife up to speed on the spending slowly). So I'll be utilizing the old 'build in your own reliable safeties' threads for sure.

I'll post pictures when I'm done.

That sounds like a great idea

Just a few things to keep in mind. When you're kiting you'll be standing up and the pull will be coming from above you, instead of laying down and hanging. Make sure the harness won't be uncomfortable in the standing up position.

Also, make sure there is absolutely nothing hard/metal on the inside of the harness, in the padding, or anywhere that could go through the padding. If you land on it, it will HURT. Just ask pntballsk8er (or something like that) who landed wrong on his climbing harness. OWIE!

Make sure there is a suitable hook on the front of the harness that is strong and open. You will want to be able to take your strop out quickly in case of an emergency; remember - kite killers don't work with a strop unless you pull it free of the harness first.

You've got a good head on your shoulders, and you sound experienced with this kind of thing. I love doing DIY stuff for kites. It's fun, and saves a lot of money :D

Yep. Those are part of my design specs.

1. No metal or pokey objects.
   
2. A quick, reliable way (at least one) to disconnect yourself from the kite and allow either the kite killers to work or further disconnect your wrist strap.
   
3. Distributed contact across the posterior.
   
4. With what I have to work with...a pulley AND a hook. Pulley to make control smooth...a hook to hook the pulley into (pulley stays with the strop) as another method of disconnecting.
   
5. Doesn't look too much like a big, blue, diaper!
   

l_.====._l


Hows this look: power lines near the ends of the bar , with pivoting extentions for the brakes. I've thought about building one but its low priority and would take a fair amount of tinker time to get it right.
My Vipers when powered up steer pretty well on brakes alone and would probably work well on this setup. Other kites that require more push pull of the power lines may not.

Quote:

Originally posted by snowspider l_.====._l Hows this look: bar, with pivoting extentions for the brakes. I've thought about building one but its low priority and would take a fair amount of tinker time to get it right.

yup, thought of that one as well.... Anyone tried it?

I fly with handles and use a peter lynn xc harness or a peter lynn back strap (old school) when my fore arms n wrists get tired, and have had no problems with the comtrol, if anything its made me control the kite better (no wildly flayling arms) but as previously said you are in for the "ride" if it goes t*ts up and you cant unhook so a release device could be good...I'v never had the handles pulling togeather so thay touch though

...Learning on my own so I thought I would run this by you guys...

rocfighter said:

"As for safety release I have multi options. Te fastest is I just loop my strop over the tops of my handles and I fly with my thumbs on top of the handle to hold the strop in place. If (when) in trouble I just let go and the strop comes off. This is where killers come into play, Wright Donnie "

I am curious to try a strop, would there be any problem using mountaineering/caving sit harness with a loop of nylon webbing clipped in and then just hooking it over the top of the handles as above..? (with kite killers on)
I don't have an open hook just biners but it seems like if i release the handles this should slide off??

ps hope to snowkite this winter, probably on a depower with bar, but wondered if a rig as above would work if i ever use this kite as a higher wind kite? ( hornet 4m)

thanks so much,
m.