Looking for the alternative to the access...
Need something to boost my confidence in winds that I normally don't feel comfy flying in, which is anywhere from 22mph+

Needs to be a closed cell and not be as quick as the access. I realize this is a tall order as the chargers are VERY quick to begin with and really, any kite that small is going to zip around higher winds.

Any advice?

I'd think that the charger would be a better option as an engine in those winds. The viron sounds to be more of a learning tool than anything.

The Venom II 8 would be better than the CH 6

Not even sure when you would ever need a 6. Probably hurricane weather.

The Viron is a trainer and a crusing only machine so it will not advance you.

Probably not what you are looking for, but...

I recommend that we urge kite companies to stop making smaller kites more efficient, and ask them to produce kites with little pull that are larger (so a somewhat smaller kite that is very inefficient). I mentioned this topic a while back on this forum (thread having to do with the value of a 6m phantom), but I must be in the minority as no one echoed my sentiments. Oh well.

Your saying a kite that can have a good pull in low winds (12mph), but not be over powering once it gets over 20mph.

The opposite, I think shaggs, asking for bigger kites that are less-powerful in order to have a bigger kite in higher winds. Bigger kite=slower&more predictable, instead of the superfast blink-and-you'll-kiteloop performance we get out of say my SSOctane 5m. ;D

I totally am in love with the idea. I think there is a market for a 6 that produces as much power as a 3 and flies as predictably as an 10, all in high winds. But I guess I'm dreaming? :dunno:

I think that this is what chudalicious is after with this thread.... Rip is probably in the ball park there with the VII 8m. This is exactly why there is a huge following after the phantoms, a lot of people don't want a kite that is super zippy in the window. Steady pull and real forgiving when you want to focus on other things.

I'm with ricardo. Venom II 8m. Wishing I had one in my quiver!

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any kite that small is going to zip around higher winds.

I agree the 4m Access XT is very zippy in 20-30 knots and always takes me 10 minutes of flying it till my reflexes get used to the speed. Here's an idea out of left field - what about tying a big tube tail to it ?? or a drogue chute ?? might slow it down and as an added bonus, everyone will say 'wow, look at that' !!! :tumble:

I don't take out my 13m Venom unless the winds are 22-30 mph. That's what I love to fly it in. I'm probably about your weight, Chud. A 6m Charger would just be completely impractical. An 8m Venom II is probably the best option, like Ricardo said. It will be extremely fast in high winds due to the circumstances, but it won't be as fast and twitchy as many other kites in that size range.

Adam told me that the Dutch landboarders don't even take their 8m Chargers out unless the wind is above 40. I'm not saying you are a Dutch professional landboarder... I'm just saying that it's possible to fly a kite that small in that kind of wind. Although, keeping it in control would be very difficult, seeing as short lines are probably used, and you can't put your hands anywhere on the bar other than directly in the middle at any given time...

Anyway, my vote goes to an 8m or possibly 10m Venom/Venom II. If you don't plan on taking it into stupid wind, maybe a 10m would be better? If the wind range you're looking for is 22-35 or so mph, there's no need to go 8m IMO... You have both of those kites, don't you?

Interesting thread. Chud has identified a real issue.

Would a 5m Flysurfer Speed 1.5 give you the same crazy speed and twitchiness? I am looking at one now.

Considering I just found a V2 8m, I was pretty psyched that it would take care of anything over my "scary" zone. But, that said, the PA is a little over 5m. Now I had a 5m Apex II and it was far too strong a kite to deal with (ripped me off the ground, in fact) in only 18mph and I was flying quite conservatively. So, all things being equal (plus it's the only comparison I can make) I am not sure I can hold down the V2 8m in those kind of winds (thanks for the vote of confidence Rip!)

Some of you nailed it exactly.... Looking for a TAME kite that will allow me to fly on those days and not just sit and wish I had bigger, ah hem.. well you know.

The reason I was looking at the Viron 4 is exactly because it is made for beginners so it should not throw you all around. Also, the Charger 6 because I figured it's projected area was close to being around 4m and the way arcs seem to handle the crap winds made it just seem that much more attractive.

A larger kite that is very inefficient? That would be a DREAM!!!

yes, i believe in you

the CH would be very aggressive and you would be kiteloop like crazy. the VII 8 is more tame for you. also you need to calculate your trim strap as well. in high winds pull it in more, and in lighter winds let it out.

i heard the Viron 4m needs about 25 to 30 knots to happily get moving for snow.

just curious why you're dumping your Access for a Viron?

I missed it ... did you say how much you weigh here somewhere? You must be very light if the apex II 5m got you off the ground in 18mph. I usually tell people its too small to pull out till after atleast 20mph. Maybe your wind gauge is off a bit or you have some very gusty conditions??

How about possibly shorter lines and heavier lines to create more drag and slow the kite for you a little? Then there is the obvious answer and that is buy a apexx buggy In a apexx you would want the 10m apexII in 18mph winds ;-)

Yep... I am a HUGE 135lbs.

I am just thinking about WW and how much I wanted to get out there but my fear (and mostly my fever and bronchitis) kinda held me back in those 20-35mph days.

I just wish I had something for that kind of wind that gave me confidence. Since the charger is way too zippy, that is out. Hearing the Viron needs some winds in the mid to upper 20s almost makes me want it more! I am selling the access because it was not enough to get up and snowkiting in the lower winds but when it gusted, it supermanned me head first into the pow. It just powers up so fast when it drifts back into the zone sometimes... had to use the brake a lot to stop it from happening on gusty days. Also, we want to start looking at water considering we live in RI and have lots of beaches. Just need to get to a nice getaway to learn water stuff first!

Also, please note that my quiver is shared between my fiance and I - yes, I fund this addiction and he funds the technology one :duh:

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Originally posted by geokite Probably not what you are looking for, but... I recommend that we urge kite companies to stop making smaller kites more efficient, and ask them to produce kites with little pull that are larger (so a somewhat smaller kite that is very inefficient). I mentioned this topic a while back on this forum (thread having to do with the value of a 6m phantom), but I must be in the minority as no one echoed my sentiments. Oh well.

or you could just fly on 15m lines to reduce power!........aj

FWIW: I think the Viron's PR campaign as a beginner/trainer kite might have been too effective.

On the Flysurfer site, the fine print does list it as a storm kite (i.e. while retaining most of the modern bells and whistle's it sounds like they detuned it a bit for high wind shenanigans). This assumption carries all the inherent dangers of reading between the lines.

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Originally posted by John Holgate Here's an idea out of left field - what about tying a big tube tail to it ?? or a drogue chute ?? might slow it down and as an added bonus, everyone will say 'wow, look at that' !!!

In high/gusty winds you have to spend a fair amount of time insuring that tube tails don't get tangled in the bridles or flying lines..... not impossible but a distraction. If the tails lock up in the bridle it tends to screw with your steering inputs or deform the canopy to the point where flying become difficult. If you are just bombing around in the air, it's a lot easier to keep the tail streamed out behind you. It becomes more difficult when you are sining and trying to maintain a certain position in the wind window.

Most drogues have a single attachment point and foils with the exception of something like a Snapshot doesn't really have an attachment point for them. I expect they would also adversely affect the steering due to the single attachment and the way the drag is distributed.

I do like the idea though. Lots of fodder for some mad scientist type experimentation.

ATB,
Sam

Venom vs. Apex:

Isn't the Venom's AR higher? The Venom has a huge amount of depower. It's fat enough to get going in lower winds than say, a Scorpion or Phantom, but thin enough that you can hold it down in quite a lot of wind.

Also, I think by nature the Apex has more raw grunt than the Venom because it's open-cell.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The Venom LIKES to be flown in high wind. There is a big difference between flying over powered and flying out of control. With a Venom in high wind, I can be over powered and still feel safe and in control. With an open cell foil, the line is a bit thinner methinks. A Venom to an Apex isn't really a fair comparison. You really need to get a feel for Peter Lynn kites, especially if you're used to flying something else. They are generally very forgiving, and you will grow to love them.

I weigh 10 pounds less than you do and find that I can hold down my Venom and Scorpion in more winds than you'd think, due to the sheer amount of power the kites allow you to spill off at once.

No need to spend the kind of money a Flysurfer requires. Not yet. And with ANY kite... If you're willing to fly it in high wind, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of what could happen. No matter how "safe" a Viron is, the tables turn when you start getting into wind with a 3 or 4 in tens place, especially if you live inland and gusts are a factor.

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I expect they would also adversely affect the steering due to the single attachment and the way the drag is distributed.

Darn your logic, Sam. LOL!!

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I usually tell people its too small to pull out till after atleast 20mph. Maybe your wind gauge is off a bit or you have some very gusty conditions??

Whoah, Dude!! I'm starting to go sideways in the Vmax at around the 22mph, that's when I pull out the 4m Access. 16-18mph is really fuss free cruising with the Apex 5m for me.

Chuddy, the 4m Access is mighty quick in the sort of winds we're talking about, but it is a very confidence inspiring kite in those winds once you dial your reflexes in to it. It's the kite you'll pull out in 30mph on the beach with the buggy and hit some decent speed. I can't help feeling that with the XT and the Frenzy's, they may seem a little 'too powerful/quicS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- at times but at some stage, you're gonna want that performance. Nothing worse than selling something and six months down the track you say, 'geez, I wish I still had my...."

Scary now, can be real good fun down the track.....

speaking up tube tail - last month we did a fly at a school yard for a little kite event and i put an old tube tail on a small foil - didn't like it for the change in angle of attack on performance but it was crap on/off wind and a small foil. It was fun to bring it low and loop it in front of a buddy trying to set up a kite so it draped the tail around him - and the kids enjoyed chasing the tail.

and one more

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Originally posted by John Holgate Quote: I usually tell people its too small to pull out till after atleast 20mph. Maybe your wind gauge is off a bit or you have some very gusty conditions?? Whoah, Dude!! I'm starting to go sideways in the Vmax at around the 22mph, that's when I pull out the 4m Access. 16-18mph is really fuss free cruising with the Apex 5m for me.

Exactly John ... I notice you did not say you were over powered but are getting pulled sideways. Its time for a higher aspect kite. Your skills are progressing and its time to move up. I am with you in the quest. As much as I loved my apex's it is time to move on for me. I can now hold down more kite than ever before, but I am getting pulled sideways and not forward. There is only one answer to that ... faster kite. I am not blaming the kite. It was not designed to be a speed monster, it was designed to be a solid, predictable, power house. And it does all those well. It was not designed to be fast.

Chudderific, Molly weighs about the same as you do. For really high winds (30 gusting to 35+) she used to fly either our 8m V2 or the 5m Apex 2. Both are great choices except she had a few issues with the Apex having front end collapse when going up wind agressively in gusty conditions. The 8m V2 (projected area 5.6m) was ideal. Rarely have did she ever wish for smaller than that.

Ricardo is right, the 8m is a high wind dream machine in the land of Arcdom.

We now have an 8m Charger (PA 5m) and a 6m Phantom 2 Prototype and both work very well in high winds if flown on the short bar. But you're right the Charger is still a Charger. It will produce a lot of power and in the small size 8-6 it can get you into a lot of trouble before you know anything is happening. I've played with slowing down the steering on the Charger and you can slow the steering but not the speed. So you end up with a Formula on car that steers like a garbage truck. It was better to fly it fast and get my reflexes up to speed.

To give you an idea of the power the 8m Charger can produce I flew my 12m (PA 7.6) one day in winds blowing about 25mph gusting to 35mph and maxed out at 65mph. I took the 8m out the next day and bagged 67mph by sining the kite. High speed while cruising couldn't match the 12m but when you snap it into a dive serious power is the result.

The 6m has been the best kite for Molly this season for speed. But I wouldn't recommend that size to anyone who doesn't have a lot of expirience with Arcs in high winds. Molly is one of the best kiters I've even seen and she has the skill/expirience level to figure this kind of stuff out quickly. She knows where to put the kite and where NOT to put the kite in high winds so that goes a long way towards being able to fly extremely zippy kites in those conditions. Even a small kite will smack you down if you put it in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

You don't want to be hucking on either size over land IMO. They boost like thier bigger siblings but not a whole lot of glide after.


Molly used to fly the Apex 2 5m for the high winds before we got our 8m. They handle gusts really well, they have great depow and can actually turn pretty well depowed, have minimal lift (though somehow she hucks on the Apexs) and have a really good predictable turn rate in high winds. As much as I'd like to recommend an Arc in this situation but if you feel the 8m V2 is too much I think the 5m Apex2 would be a great choice. And now they offer the 3m Apex3.

I don't know if this helps or just confuses you situation. I apologize, I'm not quite awake this morning.

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Exactly John ... I notice you did not say you were over powered but are getting pulled sideways. Its time for a higher aspect kite. Your skills are progressing and its time to move up. I am with you in the quest. As much as I loved my apex's it is time to move on for me. I can now hold down more kite than ever before, but I am getting pulled sideways and not forward. There is only one answer to that ... faster kite. I am not blaming the kite. It was not designed to be a speed monster, it was designed to be a solid, predictable, power house. And it does all those well. It was not designed to be fast.

Ah, so. I was thinking getting pulled sideways = need smaller kite. I hadn't thought about a faster kite.....makes sense. Wonder if a vapor flys on a turbo bar.... oops, sorry Chuddy - I'm digressing on your thread!!

Don't feel bad John..., I'm learning here too. Quick question aimed at Feyd's statement... Does a depowr kite turn slower when fully depowered..? Or how bout when not enough wind ?



(sorry Chuddy, I was gonna start a thread, but a lot of my ?'s are being answered here. ) end hi-jack.

It's all good - no worries on the hijack. I am glad people are getting questions answered! I know I have enough for a few hundred threads myself

Feyd - funny thing about the Apex 5m is that I had it, and did not like it so I had sold it. Plus, it was so close to my Frenzy 7m that it did not make sense to keep it. Having flown it (and now getting selling of my Frenzy) I still don't think I would reinvest - just was not my kind of kite I guess. But thanks for all the feedback - very helpful! Molly sounds like she is the bomb-diggity kiter

At this point, I can say that the 6m Charger is off the table. However, I am not sold on scratching off the Viron just yet. I'm going to wait for a few windy days with the V2 8m and see what happens. If I need something with less PA, I think I'll look into the Viron a bit closer and by then, hopefull there will be more feedback on it.

Chud- if you decide to let the 8m vii go let me know. if you are looking for ultra stable and more of a beginner kite i would recommend the vortexs if you can find them. Super stable, even grunt, and can literally sit at zenith for hours with no input.
Scott

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ In a apexx you would want the 10m apexII in 18mph winds ;-)

Um, 18 is where the apex 10 got fun in the XR+ bro...

Chud I was going to give a short recommendation to check threads that give comparisons of the Venom kites to other kites , I came to the conclusion just short time ago that they would be perfect for the performance you're looking for. I want to outfit my 13 year old with a "gust munching" easily managable kite.
In reading the response to your question my thoughts are you're getting input from experts and near experts on flying at the extreem limits of what kite and flyer are capable of. Know and accept your abilities and concerns as they are now and fly accordingly. Its never a bad thing to go small and progress. The force of the d-arc side is strong!

a CH 6 in high winds ... you'll have to have ALL your attention flying the unit . its gonna uselessly fast. with the right skills its what you want when u want the "survivor sessions"

penalty for missing a loop a or two is gonna be high.

8 or 10 venom will give more usable feedback thru the bar. a point to remember as you drop in kite size the action WILL be faster and FULL use of the window is the game. the smaller size, the kite will be hanging DEEPER into the window power zone and produce different rate of side pull verses a bigger kite higher in the window.
also the depower on smaller units is small, kite really starts to be behave like a c-kite.
with c-kite action its more of knowing what to do with the flow of power, there is no "ease up", its right to next move. and when their small the flow is fast.

the V10 you have should be a solid go to unit. when it too much, ITS TOO MUCH. high wind reflexes will come, be patient. gear will not solve your problem(a rant thread yet to happen!).

and yes some small units really have NO suitable conditions( kinda goes into the could v. should). like shoes that are too small. useless


YES , seany, venoms do great in high wind