WARNING Flying on national preserves aka north beach padre Island is illegal all national preserves can not legally be kite as i wasinformed of this after I got pulled over for kite bugging on north beach padre island. Some stupid rule. you can drive on the beach and camp even have fires but the evil kiters cant be on the beach.

Wow, that really hurts as that's one of my favorite atb spots, that's what happens when your having to much fun, somebody decides and that is the end, it's really scary how much power low level gov. employees can have if you piss them off, sad is my best description of them.

strange phreedom, cars and fires. some how it adds up, cars you must have insurance you could kill someone with it. fires hmmmm, fire insurance # 1 homeowners policy written in US.

guess someone is not getting paid

Insurance does seem to be the deciding factor in quite a few of the areas that have been closed off to us. I'll get up on the soap box briefly and then step off.

NAPKA people. They have insurance now for events. Doing wonders for opening up Washington beaches that have been closed to us for so long.

http://www.napka.org/

Off soap box. ;-)

Insurance is part of it, but in the case of Texas, there are other constraints:

Quote:

From the Padre Island National Seashore Superintendent’s Compendium (page 3) Determination: Beaches are considered by the State of Texas to be Texas public highways. :o (WTF!) The State of Texas requires all vehicles operating on public highways to meet state licensing, inspection and insurance requirements, as well as all other requirements for motor vehicles operating on state highways. ATVs, dune buggies, sand rails and golf carts are non-highway vehicle or can be considered slow moving vehicles for roadways. These types of vehicles have easy access and mobility to areas that normal highway vehicles can’t travel. This allows for the preservation of the natural resources. (vi) Kite surfing, hang gliding, parasailing, paragliding, ultra lights, and car sailing are prohibited within the park. Determination: Objects of this size, configuration, and movement are known to start, frighten, and disturb birds causing disruption of normal feeding, reproduction and nesting behavior. Several species, including threatened shore nesting species such as least tern and, snowy plover are vulnerable to this type of disturbance at Padre Islands National Seashore. Use of these devices is new and all their effects remain unknown. They may possess qualities adversely affecting park resources that may only be revealed in the future to the detriment of park resources if the use is allowed to continue and proliferate in the park. The long lines and great forces associated with kite surfing and the poor control the operator has over the movement of the kite poses a hazard to the nonparticipating visiting public. (Ouch!) Kite surfing, hang gliding, parasailing, and paragliding, and ultra lights are inherently dangerous to participants and other visitors. Car sailing, an activity in which a vehicle is propelled by wind, is not permitted on Texas public highways.

Without some major changes or special dispensations, they have effectively shut down access fairly emphatically.

ATB,
Sam

Darn those snowy plover :dunno:

The only bird stupid enough to get in my way was the seagulls the pelicans stayed far away and the cars don't disturb the animals. Sounds like a lame excuse to me.

Thanks again to liberal groups that take a good thing (wildlife protection) and go to far. Heaven forbid you "Disturb the wildlife". This is not a "low-level government official issue"....it is a animal rights group issue. They get their hands into everything.....

I think the birds are a secondary issue in this case. It sounds like the "our beaches our highways" was a bass-ackwards way of only allowing vehicles that are suitable for paves roads, insured, etc.

Of course, this bit of logic doesn't really account for 4-wheelers that are quite suitable for serving doubly duty as Mars landers or the larger displacement dual-purpose motorcyles that would have considerably less difficulties getting into places they shouldn't. Unfortunately, kite buggies get caught in the large fishing net of idiocy. Government logic is truly a wonder to behold.

The added determination of "poor control the operator has over the movement of the kite" seems to indicate that there have been incidents in the past (maybe just a handful), so everyone got pulled out of the pool.

Seems to prove the axiom that if we don't govern ourselves they are more than willing to.

ATB,
Sam

That's what I think to indigo wolf. The ranger said I had the best control of the kite he had see on that beach and I had to have good control because of all the people. Seriously I had to fly between cars and people and stuff like buckets and shovels I wouldn't have done that if I didn't know how to control my kite as well as I can. Now I will say every now and then you find an idiot in the group that will do something he isn't quite ready for and do it in a crowded area the only place I would practice backwards driving was huge open areas with absolutly no people. I will admit I like to show off but I don't want to look like a fool.

FWIW: The Superintendent’s Compendium was updated in 2006, 2008 and 2010. The part about about car sailing has been in there since 2006 (and possibly before). The part about poor kite control was added in 2008.... it would be interesting to find out what happened in those intervening years.

Here's another interesting tidbit....
National Preserves are governed by Title 36 of the Code of Federal Regulation (CFR).

With respect to buggies, landboards, etc., the part of Title 36 that applies to us is Part 4, Vehicles and traffic safety, specifically:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART 4--VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC SAFETY--Table of Contents

Sec. 4.2 State law applicable.

(a) Unless specifically addressed by regulations in this chapter, traffic and the use of vehicles within a park area are governed by State law. State law that is now or may later be in effect is adopted and made a part of the regulations in this part.

(b) Violating a provision of State law is prohibited.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's where it gets fun....


1. Generally, bicycles aren't allowed on highways.
   
2. Although, Texas beaches are considered highways, so bikes shouldn't be allowed on them.
   
3. Sec. 4.30 of Title 36 allows bicycles on national preserves, but leaves the details up to the states.
   
4. Section 4.30 (a)(i) of the Superintendent’s Compendium says "Bicycles may be ridden on park roads, gulf beaches, and in parking areas." So that's actually an exception to the bicycles/beaches/highways proposition.
   

So it seems like the two workaround are to get an exemption in the Superintendents Compendium (State) or Title 36 (Federal). Either would probably require very specific guidelines/rules governing kite/buggy/landboard usage and a way to administer them (not something I see the powers that be wanting to address without some nudging). Insurance would help, but most carriers, even special activitivies ones balk with the addition of wheels. Self-regulation, especially with regards to co-existence with other land users seems to be the more critcial part.

Sorry for all the convuluted detail (kind of a requirement for gov. regs) and long winded digression(I'll take the blame for that :embarrased: ).

I really need to get a rainy day hobby... sigh. :sniff:

ATB,
Sam

Quote:

Originally posted by indigo_wolf I think the birds are a secondary issue in this case. It sounds like the "our beaches our highways" was a bass-ackwards way of only allowing vehicles that are suitable for paves roads, insured, etc. Government logic is truly a wonder to behold. Seems to prove the axiom that if we don't govern ourselves they are more than willing to.

It is funny how it is suppose to be an "wildlife sanctuary" yet they will let vehicles that are prone to leaking oil or gas in the area. No buggies though....

If it is truly a "highway situation" it is logical to not want to mix regular motorized traffic with buggies.....but I think the "someone did something stupid" theory may be the case.

City Councils/Government agencies/Etc. have a tendency of putting some law into play after only getting 1 or 2 complaints. The "squeaky wheel gets the oil" syndrome.

"Poor control" you think genius argument point would invalidate cars too.

Like Phree said - they ain't getting paid so #@%$#! off.

As we are talking about the USA, I expect the more than people getting paid, it boils down to the fact that we are LITIGATION-happy. WRT to to insurance, we are pariah even in other countries. It's no surprise that the State and Federal Land Bureau don't want to enter into the liability dance when there is no assurance of insurance coverage.

ATB,
Sam

When I started doing giant kite displays at festivals I hade a 22foot delta go out of control and almost take out a person that crossed into the roped off field. They shouldn't have been there (warning signs and all) But I would have been sued if they had gotten hurt. So I put a $1,000,000 rider on my home owners policy for my kiting. It is about $200.00 a year. And it provides me with peace of mind knowing that some knuckle head that is above reading warning signs won't be living in my house!

See? Lawyers, insurance agents - getting PAY-ID b-hotches ah yeah!

Yup we need to keep these people that can't hold a real job in the lifestyles they are accustomed too. Lawers Polititions and insurance agents. Not to mention the comodities traders that are making a fortune off of screwing us with short sale oil futures.

Sorry.... I guess I just see those as two different things.

I am OK with liability insurance as a requirement for access, if that's what it takes.

If my kite gets away, crosses a field, down an embankment, and over someone's car and it causes someone to lose control of their car, because they have x meters of nylon draped over their windshield.... then yeah, someone's got to get paid. And I would expect the same if I were on the receiving end of bad luck.

The whole thing about lawyers, politicians, traders? Maybe some Sea Specs in a nice shade of rose would make it all better.

Generally getting insurance for large show kites isn't that big a deal. Getting insurance for anything where kites and wheels are concerned is a whole 'nother story.

ATB,
Sam

here's my sign!

Sam yoyr example is absolutly correct. And I agree that I would expect to be at fault if that happened. And I don't find the cost of my insurance to be high. I have never used it and I hope I never need to. But I have been paying for auto insurance for 30 years and never used that either. It is the sue happy people that are pushed by the prospect of getting rich which won't realy happen becouse the lawers take most of the settlement or dicision. Ok I need more coffee before I can make sense of all this. See you later!:puzzled:

ok help me with this thinking.

the US/state government can mow across North America and wipe out entire Indian nations. but their gonna protect some specific bird species because it MIGHT alter habitat and behavior all with unknown data( though they use the term "known" then stated contrary).

let a soon to be extinct animal alter their thinking of genocidal governments...something is wrong here OR the idea of freedom and protection is a notion only suitable for "OFFICIAL USE ONLY"

Quote:

Originally posted by PHREERIDER ok help me with this thinking. the US/state government can mow across North America and wipe out entire Indian nations. but their gonna protect some specific bird species because it MIGHT alter habitat and behavior all with unknown data( though they use the term "known" then stated contrary).

The term "War" seems to excuse all sorts of less than "civilized" behavior.

American Indian Wars

Indian Wars Time Line

Military action against wildlife seems to be limited to kangaroos and only virtually.

Add to that the the term "politcally correct" started with Leon Trotsky and the Indian Wars ended long before the terms "animal rights" or "animal rights lobbies."

Human idiocy continues to push species over the brink at a breakneck pace.





Some days, Robinson Jeffers had it right:
"I'd sooner, except the penalties, kill a man than a hawk;" (Second stanza, Hurt Hawks)

WRT to access, I would be less inclined to question terns, plovers, and other wildlife, and more likely to question the rampant proliferation of baseball/soccer fields and golf courses. For whatever reason, the UK and EU seems to be better about having open land that is undesignated and for public use.

I consider this obscene:
http://snipurl.com/7_f

and

I will be more than a little impressed to ever see something like this in the U.S.:
http://snipurl.com/7_j

ATB,
Sam

Quote:

Not to mention the comodities traders that are making a fortune off of screwing us with short sale oil futures.

.
Actually markets don't top because a wave of sellers come in, they top because there's no more buyers. Bottoms,,,opposite,,,because there is no more sellers not because a wave of buying commences. Every day market makers move the bid and the ask in order to facilitate trade. No one is 'gunning' for anyone else in order to screw them, simply a movement of least resistance. Free markets work, futures far more so than stock since your buying a thing not an idea. You'll find it difficult to tie a stock price to any inherent or intrinsic value within the company,,,,not so with futures. Your unhappiness with oil price fluctuation is actually due to corrupt corporate business practices which manifest as an inherent byproduct of a central banking model of monetary control. Hope that helps .

Sorry for the hijack, hopefully we don't lose any more riding locations.

I must consider myself lucky. I was at Southwick Beach State Park, on the shore of L. Ontario, yesterday, kite out, buggy parked on the side of a very narrow beach this year. Two ATV's, each with 2 state parks employees in them, went by headed south on some mission(?)(it was Sunday), all waved as they went by. When they returned, I was in the buggy, so I pulled off to the side. They slowed down and said something like 'Great day for kiting!', and I replied "wonderful day, but where did the beach go?" and I got the "high water from this year's snow/rains, wind pushing it all up on shore" response, then a "have fun" and they were off, back on the job. This in an area where all kinds of shorebirds migrate through/nest, including the plover, et cetera. They recognize that the dunes are very important to the system, as they form a barrier to a wetland much more hospitable to nesting than the dunes themselves. Right thinking there, and they have also seen me picking up flotsam that washes up on shore there, which always helps!

Quote:

Originally posted by indigo_wolf Sorry.... I guess I just see those as two different things. I am OK with liability insurance as a requirement for access, if that's what it takes. If my kite gets away, crosses a field, down an embankment, and over someone's car and it causes someone to lose control of their car, because they have x meters of nylon draped over their windshield.... then yeah, someone's got to get paid. And I would expect the same if I were on the receiving end of bad luck. The whole thing about lawyers, politicians, traders? Maybe some Sea Specs in a nice shade of rose would make it all better. Generally getting insurance for large show kites isn't that big a deal. Getting insurance for anything where kites and wheels are concerned is a whole 'nother story. ATB, Sam

Do cyclists have insurance on the off-chance they run into a pedestrian?

Sounds to me like they're making rules and regulations to keep themselves employed and "governing" - they're masters of it here.

You don't need that many lawyers either - NZ has a "better" health system so there's no need for litigation. All our law school graduates go and work for US companies

Personally, here, I have to pay insurance on each vehicle separately - from scratch, ex-no claims bonus - everytime I buy a new one :o
I think it's about time we just get a personal insurance - cover ME for whatever I drive or do and pay one freakin' fee ... works for me of course but not the insurance company

Quote:

Originally posted by Txshooter38 Thanks again to liberal groups that take a good thing (wildlife protection) and go to far. Heaven forbid you "Disturb the wildlife". This is not a "low-level government official issue"....it is a animal rights group issue. They get their hands into everything.....

So what have you done to preserve your right to kite? I'm out two to four times (at least) a month on the texas coast... have talked to game wardens, sherriffs, and the "turtle spotter" patrols while out playing with my kites. You have to see it from all sides and talk honestly.... but if you talk to people as Liberal/animal rights/activists instead of talking to them as a person and letting them know that not only are you not harming the environment, but are silent, eco-friendly, and leave far less of a foot print than almost anything on the beach... then you are not helping the wind powered sport.

Yes there are some low powered govt empolyees who are having a bad day. I've been warned that the speed limit is 15mph while on a mountain board. If it's crowded.. Don't Kite on land. That's my best advice.

There are hundreds of miles of Texas Beach's. When it comes to land kiting, the summer is the worst... light winds and big crowds. Winter offers world class kite buggying, but during the summer... grab a board and hit the water. But no matte waht.. never complain... just speak the truth, and hit the beach another day. We all know we don't damage the environment... but like politics, not everyone has a clue.

Quote:

Originally posted by Taper123 Quote: Originally posted by Txshooter38 Thanks again to liberal groups that take a good thing (wildlife protection) and go to far. Heaven forbid you "Disturb the wildlife". This is not a "low-level government official issue"....it is a animal rights group issue. They get their hands into everything..... So what have you done to preserve your right to kite? I'm out two to four times (at least) a month on the texas coast... have talked to game wardens, sherriffs, and the "turtle spotter" patrols while out playing with my kites. You have to see it from all sides and talk honestly.... but if you talk to people as Liberal/animal rights/activists instead of talking to them as a person and letting them know that not only are you not harming the environment, but are silent, eco-friendly, and leave far less of a foot print than almost anything on the beach... then you are not helping the wind powered sport.

@ Taper123

Good for you.......

I was defining the group which is most likely responsible for an infringement on our right to share the beach. I would be just as happy to point a finger at a far right if they were responsible for making unreasonable rules. The point is that "groups" in this case "groups" associated with animal preservation (by the way I am an animal lover) take things to the extreme. There should be a happy medium.

We should all be good stewards of our sport; but I do not have to answer to you for what I do or do not do for the sport. Thanks for asking though.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza Do cyclists have insurance on the off-chance they run into a pedestrian?



Is it required? No. Is personal liabilbily insurance available for bicycles? That really depends on where you are located. However, as more and more people commute to work by bicycle, availability is on the rise.

National preserves requiring bicyclists to have insurance is going to be unlikely for a few reasons:


1. Without a certification or licensing infrastructure, enforcing insurance requirement is going to be nigh on impossible.
   
   
2. The Superintendent's Compendium is fairly specific about where bicycles are fair game and where they are off-limits.
   
   
3. The bicycle is fairly well ingrained in the American psyche. By comparison, power kites have a better chance of leaving people with the impression that you have a relative named Klaatu.
   
   
4. There is a serious amount of power behind making sure that bicycles are given access to a great many places. That power is driven by an non-profit organization as well as a fair number of the manufacturers. The level of organization, PR, and solicitation for federal and local funding is pretty impressive.
   

The natural reaction to #4 is "Hey, that's not fair!!" :sniff: However, that reaction assumes that the universe is inherently benign or at least fair.... and that's rarely the case. If it were, I would be driving a much hotter car purely on the merits of exceptionally cute ear lobes.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza Sounds to me like they're making rules and regulations to keep themselves employed and "governing" - they're masters of it here.

If the assertion is that banning kites/buggies/landboards is somehow assuring someone job security, I am going to have to say... er... umm... Pfiffle!!

Banning kites/buggies/boards revolves around enforcement and oversight, and that generally falls on the "rangers" that patrol the beaches. They are already out there giving directions, finding lost dogs, giving cars jumpstarts or whatever.

If anything, allowing kites on the beach would increase job security and possibly headcount.

The USA tends to be more than a tad litigation happy. If they allowed kites and buggies, and something happened, I could easily see someone trying to assign liability to the park for creating an unsafe environment. That would just have to happen a very few times, before you saw staff count, services, etc. being impacted because settlement costs were cutting into operating expenses.

Power Kiting liability insurance (on a personal level) is a PITA to get due to the fact that it is an alien culture to all but a handful of insurance (generally specialty) carriers. Things seems to be much more civilized in the other countries.

ATB,
Sam

This ban goes way back to 2003! http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2298085 The guy who ran the windsurfing concession at bird island did not like kiters and saw them as a threat to his business. With Peter's death it was railroaded thru for the N.Padre Island only! I buggied on that beach a few times prior to the ban and almost hit a coyote eating a redfish one night on a full moon! It was not the best beach to buggy on due to the sloop and soft sand. Mustage Island State park is the best buggy beach in the area and Ranger Ken is a friend to Kiters!...........aj

Unfortunate being greeted by Federales, Turning Left at beach should put you on state beach front. As of my last visit barrier piling and Visitor/information bulletin board defining areas & rules. I have been Corpus vacation windsurfing 15 yrs and now kiting 5 yrs.
Offering my observations concerning the BAN; The focus is actually Bird Island Basin, located on the Laguna Madre side of Padre Island.
It is 1st a Wild Life Sanctuary w/o boarders. 2nd a Windsurfing destination w/camping, boat launch area. 3rd a windsurfing retail establishment on leased property adjacent to launch.
The logistics are not conducive to safe kiting. Water access is limited, Parking & camping door to door run the length of the actual water line which is within 8 ft of all. You have motor homes, RVS, Vans, catamarans, pop ups, tents,kayaks,cars,etc. In the water shallows you have moored windsurfing kits. Behind all the described with in 25/50 ft. are Ponding areas and Marsh for wildlife. with one access rd.
I'm not remembering the year 05/06? Kite boarding migrated to Bird Island It was very exciting,The Locals and regulars tried to observe safe kiting/windsurfing Protocol. Then the SHTFN, Newbies and Hot dogs started using the ponding areas to lay out lines and launch, launched upwind blasting through downwind traffic, close lining windsurfers,pelicans and others, The last straw was one day the Parks Superintendents family was enjoying the day at waters edge when a out of control kiter left his mark..
Does this mean you cain't kite Laguna Madre or the Gulf? NO - One can launch from the vast state Beaches or main land. If you must kite Padre Island, drive 100 miles south as the crow fly's to South Padre, Cleaner water and beaches, NO kiting restrictions. Get some wind