So after blowing out my knee...again, and being told by my doctor to not step within 500 yards of a kite, this is the compromise I came up with. Of course with snow coming, I'll be back on skis as soon as the swelling subsides. The buggy seems to work very well, although it could use some fine sharpening on the runners. It made pretty good headway today in light wind even with the rough sharpening job on the runners.

Man that thing looks like alot of fun! Can you send me the same parts to bolt up to my flexi, I would love to run that on the lakes up in the the mountains by me. What would the cost be ?

Well, that's the problem. The 440 Stainless for the runners was $120 alone, then the skis another $110 for two pair...They come in pairs. The other stainless, 4130 tube and spherical rod ends I had kicking around the shop, but I'd estimate all of that at another $200 or so.

The best I can do is take some detailed photos for you so you can make a set. I couldn't make them for sale. They would cost too much and liability would be a killer. You could make them cheaper by using 1018 CR steel for runners. They won't hold an edge as well as 440 stainless, but would be a fraction the cost. Might also be able to find a cheaper ski alternative...or just don't use skis. The nice thing about the skis though is that they ride up over the snow drifts and also make the buggy usable in snow, not just ice.

Today was the first real trial. Winds were 10-12MPH with an 8.5 Blade. I brought the kite up too fast for a jibe and it lifted me right out of the buggy. It's getting a seat belt tomorrow.

Boy that sound alot more involved than I thought. Thanks for the info though, I just don't have enough areas to use that would justify the cost.

If not for the fact that we've had just about no snow this year, I wouldn't have bothered either. Well, that and my bad knee, but the knee doesn't slow me down much. Had a good four hour session on skis today. Not enough wind for the buggy on snow. Rain is coming on Friday followed by a freeze. Should zamboni the lake nicely.

So, you used plastic skis and cut through them to pop-rivet on scratch build runners, yes?

What are the runners originally used on? (Any link to sources?)

Looks like a lot of fun!

-Chip

The skis are snowmobile ski skins. They are attached to the runner boxes using 8-32 stainless machine screws. Pop rivets would loosen and break. The runners themselves started out as three pieces of 3" X 1/4" 440 stainless. Same stuff knife blades and DN ice boat runners are made from. I made a jig and roughed the 90 degree edge with the milling machine, then put a razor edge on them with a fine wet stone.

Occationally you can find used DN ice boat runners on eBay, but even there I've seen them go for over $400 a set. Much cheaper to scratch build them. The runner box is the part you can see from the top of the ski. The runners fit inside the box. This allows you to remove the runners easily for sharpening.

Other than the ski skins, everything is scratch built. You can get ski skins at any snowmobile/ATV shop. They run about $50 a pair.

Be careful with the seatbelt Ross, that 8.5 will not care if you have an extra 100lbs attached to your butt. The only thing worse than an OBE is to have 100lbs of metal on top of you with 3 razors attached somewhere. I would think twice about the seatbelt.

Scoop

I know...I've been lifted in a buggy before. Just have to make sure you're pointed in the right direction before you land. The problem with a buggy on snow is that you have a lot more "rolling" resistance than on wheels. That means you need a big kite and/or lots of wind, and that means lots of pull. Enough pull to yank you out of the buggy sideways. If it were just a matter of being lifted up, I wouldn't use a seat belt, but without the seat belt, you have to fly with one hand and hold yourself into the buggy with the other. On ice it's not so bad...about like being on wheels. You can get away with a smaller kite and less wind.

I'm with scoopy when it comes to caution in regards to seat belts. Another alternative would be to build up the side rails on your flexi. Higher side rails (along with higher back support) won't only help you be able to handle more power by not being yanked out the side but also makes for a much more comfy ride.

I've seen it done here locally and the difference is pretty amazing.

So Ross, you blew out your knee on the 11th of this month, doctors told you not to be 500 yards to a kite, then on the 14th your out for a 4 hour session??? Had the swelling already subsided?? I just cant immagine being on a 4 hour snow ride with a blown knee?? What did you actually do to your knee??

Scoop

Quote:

Originally posted by Scoopy So Ross, you blew out your knee on the 11th of this month, doctors told you not to be 500 yards to a kite, then on the 14th your out for a 4 hour session??? Had the swelling already subsided?? I just cant immagine being on a 4 hour snow ride with a blown knee?? What did you actually do to your knee?? Scoop

I have no cartilage or ACL and a sub par MCL in my left knee due to a motorcycle accident, so it dislocates easily. What happens is it dislocates then pops back in. After that happens it takes a few days for the swelling to go down. The first time it happened this season it took 2 weeks to go down. Now it only seems to only take a few days. I ice it at night and pound down the ibuprofen. As soon as the swelling goes down, I go back on skis. I also wear a custom made brace when I ski. That helps some.

I was on the buggy today. Winds were averaging 25MPH with a high measured on my wind meter of 47MPH. Winds in the pic were about 30MPH. I managed just under 40MPH in the buggy. I could have done better but I kept the kite high in the window as not to get caught out by a gust.

Are you going to Kitestorm? I'll have the buggy up there. I'm planning on Sunday, but that could change. There is not much snow up there now and I don't see anything significant in the long range forcast....So bring your ice gear.

Heh, dont have any such ice gear. No, Im not going to be able to make it. My wife is going to have surgery on her foot, so I wont be able to be there.
Im glad your knee is nothing serious (I think).

Good luck on the ice
Scoop

The knee has it's moments. I've been dealing with it for a few years now so I'm used to it. Today wasn't bad after we got past this mornings trajedy. The DN ice boats were running over 70MPH this morning and two collided. One guy was airlifted out and the other died on the scene.

Anyway, I figured out today that I can hold down a lot more kite on skis that on the buggy. I went 44MPH on skis and could only get 32MPH comfortably on the buggy. I'm going to work on the runners a bit and see if a better edge will hold more power. I find that to get the speed, you have to keep the kite right down near the ice, other wise the upward lift unloads the runners and makes them slide sideways. Of course, the problem with keeping the kite on the ice is that the gusts get interesting. So I'm guessing high speed runs on the ice buggy should be left to days with steady wind.

So how good is the snow performance? I wouldn't imagine power is very good, but I'm looking at old crusty snow right now. Ice boating has been dismal in MN this year. I need some alternative when the ice is rotten. I have DN runners, but I like your blade setup better. It would be much lighter.

Can you supply close up pics of the runners disassembled from the ski. I don't quite get it.

Thanks,
Dave

I knew a guy who knew a guy who made a similar setup for sale. I got a chance to try it on snow, and there was A LOT of resistance. It made me think it would be better do ditch the snomobile skins nad just use runners when on ice. And for snow, rig up some old snoskis, maybe cut some down or use skiskates. The thing I found out was that snowmobile skis have a lot of resistance, much more than snowskis for people. Here is his product:
http://members.cox.net/sean.jones/snobuggy1.JPG
http://members.cox.net/sean.jones/snobuggy2.JPG
http://members.cox.net/sean.jones/snobuggy3.JPG
If you are interested, I might be able to find his name for you. I wont say how much they are for sure, but I think they were around $400 for a set of 3. Keep in mind this was 2-3 years ago.

Sean

Sean

Thanks a lot for the pics. If I do anything I'll build rather buy. It's a little disappointing hearing about the resistence, but I guess that's why I asked. Thanks again.

Well, to be fair, I only tried it once and it was on pretty warm wet snow. I think ice would be ideal. Maybe try waxing the snomobile skins like you do with regular skis.

Sean

How about mini skis with waxable base? You could still insert the blades in the center of the ski.

I've been thinking about this and I think schneidp20 is on the right track.

But I'm wondering if you couldn't get better results scratch building runners out of layers of fiberglass over wood and/or metal.

From what it looks like with the pictures, the snowmobile skis have a significant v shape in the center, this is probably one of the main causes of extra drag.

Snow skis are dead flat and polished to glide over snow.

If you made the body out of strips of wood, you can steam and bend this layers of wood and glue them into a very strong shape, fiberglass to seal the wood and you'd have one heck off a ski. (the wood work might sound intimidating, but you can build a very simple steam changer with a tee pot and a plastic bag, look for wood working stores for more info.)

Remember that surface area is what counts, longer ski's are faster, wider snow shoes can handle more weight. I'd think you'd want 5" wide skis at least, maybe wider, and about 36-40" long, curled up at the front. This is just a guess on sizes though.

To prevent side slip, set the blades maybe as much as an inch below the ski blade, then they should cut very cleanly in the forward direction, and prevent side slip in all but the loosest powder. The only thing to watch out for is that you don't cut all the way through the snow and nick your blades on rocks or pavement. The front ski may present a problem with turning if you have one long blade, two smaller blades on the front and back of the ski might work better.


This is all theory, and totally untested. Just some ideas I'm thinking, thought I'd through them out there.

-Chip

I think different snow conditions require different setups. The setup you describe is for deep snow. You probably could get by with just canting regular skis to take advantage of the edge (straight, not the parabolic ones). I've seen a windsurfer setup that worked good like that.

The snowmobile skis are intreging because they are designed for lateral force in turning. That's what we need. However, it's not going to be for powder that's for sure.

I think some experimenting is in order ... next winter.

Hi guys ! I'm in Icebuggying for almost 10 years now in Québec Canada. Here's my Icebuggy Number 7 made last year with carbide runners, aluminium folding frame(aircraft quality). Very fast machine !

http://www.kitezone.ca/simages/BUL_2005_01.gif

http://www.kitezone.ca/simages/BUL_2005_02.gif

http://www.kitezone.ca/simages/BUL_2005_03.gif

FMF - Webmaster - KiteZone.ca

Love that design!!! Gives me great ideas for regular land buggies!! Most one-off buggies use the same basic geometry as Flexi's and Libres (maybe its because its good - maybe because thats what there "supposed to look like":wink2

Anyhow, it looks very straight forward (minimal bending involved) I'm guessing it probably has less flex and better lateral stability than standard buggy designs (given that it has the side bars running all the way to the steering tube, instead of converging into one at your crotch)

How does that affect your ability to steer sharply?? Questions question....

Kudos

Steering is very shap and side slide for braking too.

I used aircraft aluminium and some fittings from an old hang glider leading edge to make the frame. Very comfortable for long distance too !

FMF - Webmaster - www.KiteZone.ca

Here's another angle. It's 7 feets wide.

http://www.kitezone.ca/simages/BUL_2005_04.gif

I love the look of your icebuggy Number 7.
As I don't speak French!
How about more on the specks on this buggy?
so I can buld my own. The lenght of all tubbing
. Would nice. thank you. Please!

Hey! Have you guys checked out Peter Lynn's new concept in Ice buggying? Two laterally flexible rails that steer by deforming them into arcs!?! (Think of an extreme version of the old "flexible flyer" sleds) Whether you use his stuff or not, you gotta admit that guy's brilliant.

Hi there,

we made a trip to Poland/Border to Russia in February 2007 with our Icebuggys.
There we found only Blackice - great !

Here is our Video:

http://www.kitestore.de/buggyblast14.zip

Last year we havent had ice all over Europe.

We are working now on our new project: Multipurpose Iceblades for use on Ice and snow.
Cooming soon:frog:

Cheers from Germany

Tom