Any of you kite tinkerers know how to convert a normal fixed bridle bar to cross over ?

I got an Ozone Flow 5m on bar but coming recently off a HQ Scout, I find it turns a little slow. Not wanting to go Turbo, I wondered if there is an easy way to convert the bar to cross over.

Thanks for any input!

James

Jovver and Kamikuza did that about two years ago:

Slingshot Turbo Bar

Point of clarification.... on the Ozone Turbo Bar the Chicken Loop line runs through a center of the bar and that is your connection point.

Other X-over bars used a D-Loop to connect the harness to and the line that runs through the bar attaches to a wrist leash.

A lot of FB bars don't have a center passthrough on the bar.... often a stainless steal ring is velcroed to the bar for the safety wrist leash line and nylon webbing runs out to a single pulley that runs to the brake leaders.

The point is that if you are doing a conversion, it might be easier to start with a blank depower bar with the center hole already built-in.

Hope that helps.

ATB,
Sam

Or if you're a real cheap, miserable b^%tard like me, you can make one up out of a piece of dowell and some lawn mower cord....Home made turbo bar. I just took some approximate measurements from the turbo bar flyer on the ozone bar and ripped it off. This was, of course, just to see whether or not to actually spend the money on the real deal Which I eventually did and now I won't buy a fixed bridle for buggying unless it works well on the turbo bar.

Although if I ever get into racing, I reserve the right to change my mind........

Ozone frenzy 5m² are back in 2012 check on flyozone... :singing:

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Originally posted by jaymzmn Any of you kite tinkerers know how to convert a normal fixed bridle bar to cross over ? I got an Ozone Flow 5m on bar but coming recently off a HQ Scout, I find it turns a little slow. Not wanting to go Turbo, I wondered if there is an easy way to convert the bar to cross over. Thanks for any input! James

Why a bar?......... Handles are way better than a bar.

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Handles are way better than a bar.

Personally, I find the bar much more comfortable and relaxing to fly with. But I'm not racing and I don't need the finer control of handles. I have never needed to do something with the kite that could not be done with the turbo bar.

I would agree that the bar is somewhat 'clunky' and expensive compared to handles. I also like the fact that on the turbo bar, the safety is exactly the same as my depower kites - not that I've ever had a problem releasing the pulley when on handles and strop.

Horses for courses, I guess.

Hey you guy's need to check out a bar used by the old school flyers, I've only seen one but I can see the advantage on a fb foil.
It is called a bull horn bar,the front lines connect on the first bend of the bull horn and the rear lines connect out at the end of the bar. This gives you about a 2 to 1 input on the rear lines versus the front. Makes for fast turning like handles and easy to make out of 1" aircraft tubing,handle bar wrap,leaders and tubing bender.

pics man, pics.......

yea I know that was lame to post without pics and next time I get with my bro I will get some pics. If you can picture a bull horn flat across the middle for about 18" then curving up for about 8' then curving out for about 8", kinda like a bicycle handle bar, front lines connect to the first curve and rears to the ends of the bar. Hope that helps and tuning is key for each kite.

g-force was that a crossover bar on the pepper?
my friend keeps describing depower motions and I'm lik... wtf?

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Originally posted by g-force junkie yea I know that was lame to post without pics and next time I get with my bro I will get some pics. If you can picture a bull horn flat across the middle for about 18" then curving up for about 8' then curving out for about 8", kinda like a bicycle handle bar, front lines connect to the first curve and rears to the ends of the bar. Hope that helps and tuning is key for each kite.

From your description, something similar was used with Peter Lynn C-Quads.


Click thumbnail to open fullsize picture in a new browser window

ATB,
Sam

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Originally posted by dandre g-force was that a crossover bar on the pepper? my friend keeps describing depower motions and I'm lik... wtf?

Strictly speaking, when you apply brakes when flying with control handles you are depowering the kite.

However, that's the not the same commonly accepted definition of using a depower bar to change the angle of attack, airfoil camber, and/or canopy curve to alter the flight characteristic of the kite in active flight.

When Ozone released the Turbo Bar there was the random dispersal of some pharmacy grade drugs and the marketing wizards were given free reign to to pepper the marketing propaganda with the term "depower" to the saturation point of most grades of paper. This was done without making any fine distinctions between the two possible interpretations of "depower".

Unfortunately, this thrust the world of kiting into a dark age where fliers wander the beaches and fields with sword and shield in hand (ever vigilant of random ogre attacks and the occasional raid by a sour tempered dragon).

Note: While powerzonekiteports and fixmykite.com does exceptional kite repairs, in most cases, an encounter with a sour tempered dragon generally renders most kiting gear as a write-off.

ATB,
Sam

Lol! Speaking of Random Ogre attacks...

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Strictly speaking, when you apply brakes when flying with control handles you are depowering the kite.

The trouble I have with this statement that at speed, in the buggy, applying brakes actually creates more lift/pull/power (cross out the unapplicable) It's all a matter of degree. Reminds me of steering a motorbike - steer left to go left until you reach the speed where counter steering kicks in and you go right. Now I'm getting a headache.....

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Originally posted by indigo_wolf Unfortunately, this thrust the world of kiting into a dark age where fliers wander the beaches and fields with sword and shield in hand (ever vigilant of random ogre attacks and the occasional raid by a sour tempered dragon).

haha thats funny you say it like that. My friend always laughs at me when I talk about conquering wind and mountains like I'm just off to slay an unfortunate dragon.

Onother option is the original crossover bar :

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=3107#pid129...

This is what I used to use. Some kites took to it well others flew just awful on it. Usually smaller the kite the worse it flew in low wind. This was due to the pulleys playing on the brakes, I think.

Been thinking about getting on bar & harness. More like I NEEED to, flew the 8m papper2 yesterday in 3-6mph static on handles and my arms/shoulders/wrists still hurt! I was fighting so hard to hold on that I was flying with brakes a bit on all the time, easy enough fix I can shorten the power lines, but just tells me I need to get on a harness..

I have a donated Ozone FB bar and std climbers harness to get started. My concern is that I did notice the 8m liked brake input to really turn, it turn ok without brake but spins right around with brake added, nice and quick.

SO I skimmed a few of the cross-over threads here on PKF, skimmed pictures of various brands solutions. Based on my current bar I think an adaptation of the PKD design would be easy to do? I also think it would work for about any FB bar on harness?

Basically just replace the brake line thru the pulley with a pair of pulleys then cross link the power lines thru pulley's to be the brakes? My bar has the adjustable center line so it would let me tune the brake input a bit. Thinking larkshead the line on one side for the crossover pullies and the ends of the brakes connecting to power lines. That way it would be easily removed to fly std bar, or adjust the brake lines on power's to tune brake input for turns

I attach a picture of basic idea here. "Drawing not to scale"...

Thoughts?

I can't tell by the picture but I think you want a 3rd pulley where your safety joins the line from break to break? The Green line in the drawing.

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Originally posted by Bladerunner I can't tell by the picture but I think you want a 3rd pulley where your safety joins the line from break to break? The Green line in the drawing.

Yeah hard to see, PKF made me drop resolution way down to attach.

There is already a pulley at the end of the center brake line, the green line loops thru it currently :-) After the upgrade there would be a total of 3 pulleys in the system.

I am curious on what pople ended up using for pulleys on thier customs? Looks like a Ronstant series 20 is the right size, but what about model/design?

The Standard pulley:
Ronstan series 20
Or the orbit lock with lashing thru the eye?
Ronstan series 20 Orbit lock

Also what sort of line do you use and where to buy it for the bar/cross overs? Themain lines on this Ozone bar are showing wear, it would be nice to replace it while I am tweaking...

3mm (1/8") Amsteel or similar single braid Dyneema or Spectra for the leaders. Here's a link to it at Annapolis Performance Sailing:

http://www.apsltd.com/c-1486-single-braids-dyneema-vectran.a...

SIngle braid is easiest to splice using a wire fid. Very clean loops, with no bulky or strength-robbing knots. Best eyesplice is the brummel splice:
http://www.neropes.com/SPL_12Strand_EyeSpliceBrummel.aspx

I often use 4mm or even 5 mm for the main leaders offbar ends if I want pull them bare handed, but you don't need the extra strength.

Ronstan Series 20 Orbit blocks over the standard 20 series, although either will work.

krumly

The lighter in weight the better for pulleys.
I was amazed at how much they play on the brakes in low wind and small kites.

After much tinkering with crossover bars I went handles for FB and depower for bars. In hind site I was only delaying learning how to use handles to their maximum benefit. The way a quality FB is designed to be flown. Handles and a strop trump a bar every time!

Lamrith -

Bladerunner is right - the weight of pulleys and added leader on the x-over bar can 'pre-brake' a kite in light wind, which is exactly what you don't want.

There was a bunch of discussion on x-over bars for FB foils in 2007. Search for the thread 'Crossover bar for fixed-bridle foils.'

I have strong doubts your sketch will work, but prove us wrong. What I never really like about the X-over bar is you still carry all the load in your arms, unless you add a harness loop (with safety release) directly to the bar. That's all good, but if you let go of the bar, you have to pull the safety on the harness loop to cut loose while the kite is fully powered with no means of control. And like Bladerunner said, handles give you the most finesse with FB foils.

krumly

I honestly am not sure about the handles on strop idea, just does not seem as simple as the bar. I also see most kite skiers using the bar? I do plan to go Depower, not sure when, maybe spring, so need to start getting used to a bar, hoping the added brake will make my kites more responsive while I get adjusted to a bar.

That bar I show has a chicken loop with release on it and I also have a a QR on the harness as well. Pretty easy to pop either release with a hand still in the center of the bar keeping the kite under controll.

What makes you think the layout will not work. Not challenging you, just asking honestly. I based the layout off the PKD design(picture attached), just the pulleys attach to the bar from the center not the bar ends.

I layed the bar out and locked down the center line and did some measurements. From dead center to full turn one way puts 6" of pull on the brake line going to the pulley, which will then pull 6" on the brake line. Not a ton, but should help speed up turns. This is mostly something for the 8m to help it around on the bar.

Lamrith, the pic of the PKD crossover bar is designed for use with out a chicken loop and not to be hooked in, it was designed for the Buster Soulfly, from the 1.5 up to the 4.4, more like a trainer. It will work with other kites as well but you have to remember the bigger the kite the bigger the bar. Some kites work well with the bar and some don't.
If you are going to move to depowers then you should make the move sooner than later. The harness you have is not a good one to learn on as it is unable to let go if need be. Thats why the the bar you have is a depower bar with a chicken loop that has a release. Your harness and bar need a depower kite which you don't have yet, so a FB won't do the job you are looking for. The next time you head to Chambers let me know and you can try out one of mine to see how it works.

By the way did you go out today?

Hrmmmmm
I love to tinker and experiment which is why I want to see how I can tweak the bar I have.

I have a strong feeling I will go depower sometime in the spring once the weather starts returning to nice and flyable. Flying days will be limited and random until then at this point given our winters.

I thought all the depower bars the center line connected to the harness moved independant from the bar, which is how you power/depower the kite? The bar I have the chicken loop/brake line is locked to the bar. Thought that made it a plain jane FB bar?
My harness has a QR on it above and beyond the one built into the chicken loop on the bar, then a kite killer to the center lines pulley. The way it is done I could connect the harness QR to a buggy as a auto release if I was lifted from the buggy by a gust.

This bar is 64cm wide power line to power line, I will try it as is on the 8m 1st on a calm day without harness and see how it turns.

Yeah I was able to go out Sunday, was worried about the gusts early in the day as they were pretty severe, blowing 19, gusting 29knts. But it calmed down some late day and I put the small rigs up and had both kids flying.

Sorry to say this, but I really don't think it's going to help you get used to a depower at all. What you have there is quite different from a depower set-up. Even my turbo bar responds quite differently to a depower bar at slow speeds as applied brake simply stalls the kite. At buggy speeds it begins to 'feel' like a depower setup.

For me, the whole idea of using a bar is so that the power lines can go straight through the middle of the bar to your harness taking all the load off your arms so you end up only needing a light controlling hand on the bar.

There are some good s/h deals around on depower kites - I would be looking to start there...

Lamrith -

OK, looking at your sketch/photo more carefully, I think I'm seeing what's going on better. With pulleys attached to the end of the trim strap, you are braking both sides evenly if you let the bar out evenly. But if you turn the bar, you are only getting a 1:1 mix between front line travel and brake line travel. This would be the equivalent of executing a turn with handles with no additional brake input - not very helpful for turning a kite that likes brake input. If I'm missing something so far, someone please correct me.

The PKD setup is really a x-over bar like the sketch Bladerunner provided. The difference is the pulleys are set further out on leaders that are fixed to the bar ends as opposed to being tied close to the bar end.

With the x-over setup, pulling in 1" on front line pulls in the brake approximately 1-1/2" - 2" (varies depending on the lengths in your set-up and 'included angles' the brake lines make thru the pulley). The ratio of front line to brake line input in steering is fixed, and the x-over bar will work well with fixed bridle kites designed for that mix of front line to brake steering input.

Handles give you total authority over the amount of front line vs brake you use in a turn: leave brakes slack and execute a turn just by pulling in one side via the front line and letting out the other side via the front line, like a two line foil. Or just flick the brakes with your wrist to execute a turn. Or any mix of the two methods.

I am not trying to make the bar or kite like a depower, I am just trying to make a kite more responsive turning on the bar.

The PKD one shown is a bar they designed as a cross over for the buster soufly series. That one in particular is quite narrow as it was designed for only up to 4.4m buster or I would buy one for my 8m. The PKD is not designed to work with a harness.

The bar I have is an ozone basic FB bar with harness loop. The center lines do not pass thru the bar or move the chicken loop is fixed to the bar, It is there purely to take the load off your arms. The kite killer is separate and attaches at the center pulley, if I pull the chicken loop or QR on harness the entire thing ejects and kite killer pulls the brake, dumping the kite.

What I was trying to draw was an adaptation of the pkd concept, but rather than the pulleys fixed by the bar ends use the adjustable brake line in the middle that is already installed. Looking at it though, to get full effect would probably need the pulleys connected to teh bar ends to keep them providing full mechanical advantage. My design is just a basic line length offset of the side moving forward, not taking advantage of the full 12" the power lines are being offset.

I wonder if then I do attach to the bar ends like the pkd and leave the middle line as a overall brake adjuster?

Lamrith -

I was revising my last post as you replied. Read it again - I think it will clarify a couple issues you just mentioned. Saw that their was no center line thru your bar, but figured their was a chicken loop with trim strap assembly floating free of the bar.

You have no way of increasing or decreasing brake on both sides simultaneously, right? Pretty sketchy set-up. I'd at least ditch the wrist cuff safety and change it to a QR safety that attaches to a ring on your harness or spreader bar.

Never flown a PL Pepper, but I bet your 8 meter will fly better biased toward brake steering. Someone else could chime in here. So you need the real x-over setup. My guess is the long leaders with pulleys nearer the bar center on the PKD version will result in less travel for the brakes than having pulleys right at the bar ends.

You could do the job up at the kite like on the HQ Scout II:
http://www.powerkites.de/images/stories/manuals/manual_scout...

Handles are simpler and give full control on a FB. Figure them out and then add a strop with QR if you want to take the load off your arms. No less safe than your current bar and you'd have better kite control.

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Originally posted by krumly Lamrith - I was revising my last post as you replied. Read it again - I think it will clarify a couple issues you just mentioned. Saw that their was no center line thru your bar, but figured their was a chicken loop with trim strap assembly floating free of the bar.

no my chicken loop does anchor to the bar, it is not hanging free, and I have no plans of changing that connection.

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You have no way of increasing or decreasing brake on both sides simultaneously, right? Pretty sketchy set-up. I'd at least ditch the wrist cuff safety and change it to a QR safety that attaches to a ring on your harness or spreader bar.

My setup currently does have an adjuster that adjusts the length of the center line above the bar and influences both brakes thru the pulley, the kite killer is attached at the pulley and does hang loose to a wrist strap. I have considered changing the wrist strap to a caribiner for harness connection.

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Never flown a PL Pepper, but I bet your 8 meter will fly better biased toward brake steering. Someone else could chime in here. So you need the real x-over setup. My guess is the long leaders with pulleys nearer the bar center on the PKD version will result in less travel for the brakes than having pulleys right at the bar ends. You could do the job up at the kite like on the HQ Scout II: http://www.powerkites.de/images/stories/manuals/manual_scout... Handles are simpler and give full control on a FB. Figure them out and then add a strop with QR if you want to take the load off your arms. No less safe than your current bar and you'd have better kite control.

The pepper turns alright brakes only, just slow like any big FB. Adding brake just flips it around that much faster. My goal here is just to get onto a bar. all the videos I have whatched, and thinking about where I will end up kiting long term (water dragging, snow kiting on ski's, eventually on depower kites) I believe I will be on a bar mostly and since I have a donated bar sitting wanted to start putting it to use. I will run it stock 1st, key is just to start getting used to being attached and controlling with a bar. Plus with our winter here and flying time vanishing the little project would keep me busy. idle hands are the :evil: plaything!