I have a question about arcs and the navigator bar.

I took out the synergy today with some friends. It was very windy, and keeping the kite fully depowered was probably necessary for the smaller riders. Now, with the bar fully depowered, some of the riders had trouble reaching the bar. Is there anything that can be done to reduce the distance between the bar(when released) and the chicken loop?  I know tmoving the stopper would do the trick, but that would reduce the amount of depower achieved when the bar is released.

Assuming you had the trim to the max - depower from pushing the bar is, of course, limited by how far it moves. Shortening the throw loses depower ... nothing you can do ...

EXCEPT maybe get a Regulator from Switch :D then you should be able to reduce the throw (like moving the stopper) but add what you took out to the trim ...



To mod the Nav, it'll require a REALLY long piece of Amsteel and some velcro stitched on the end, but I think it'll work a treat! Something I'm going to get around to in winter ...

It's very similar to the North setup ... here is another option, and it comes with the pulley ...
http://www.northkites.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info...

Thanks for the quick reply!

I Thought I was doing something wrong. I guess the stopper is the only solution as long as they aren't riding overpowered.

Okay I'm not sure if the regulator will help with the whole depower range available as it shortens the throw.
The idea of a long throw is that we now have a broader range of power to depower available in our arm movement. By adjusting the trim we are fine tuning that power range available. When launching we are reducing the power, then when ready to go adjusting the trim to give us the power to ride. Quite often that is setting it so we have max power when pulling in on the bar but we can still power it down at an arms reach and then with a bit more reach/throw the back lines slacken for the full depower. That full extent usually puts the bar out of reach for many people. In higher wind the trim is adjusted to reduce the max power down a little unless you go to a smaller kite (also adjust trim for other reasons but not important for this review).
Okay next the stopper, if you want to set it so you are riding with power on or limiting the throw you bring the stopper down - some stoppers have the ability to adjust tension for the amount of pressure needed to push off that locked stopper position.
By shortening the throw you are reducing the power range available in your arm movement. But keep in mind even with a long throw and riding powered you can take a lot of power out even before you get to a full arms length. So in my thinking yes you can shorten the throw but you have lost a little range.
The regulator seems to be exactly the same as a stopper in a way but it also governs the amount of trim line available. So the regulator and stopper all the way at the top and you have a full range of arm movement but not trim available and it looks like that trim adjustment would be way out of reach. So by moving the regulator down all you are doing is having an above the bar sheeting and setting it to a comfortable distance for each rider - that in itself it a great idea. But as you limit your throw you don't gain anything by making more trim available. In fact with a below the bar trim the amount of trim you have is only limited by the overall length of your entire trim line - you could pull it in 4-5 feet if you wanted.
If you prefer above the bar trim then this does look like a nice solution but it also looks like you need to be able to pull that trim line away from yourself (pull up toward the kite) and depending on your power and the set up of the regulator you might find you are trying to pull it when you are already at a full arms length - there was a problem with the early arc bar that you needed to pull toward the kite to depower and shorter armed guys could not pull that far.
I think it would be nice to play with to see what it does - my buddies are all part of the switch team and I'll have to have a look at their new gear to suss out that regulator. Let us know if you get a chance to do anything in the meantime.

The stopper will reduce the throw and depow. But even so the depow available on the Navi with the stopper in wouldn't be less than the stock '07 bar.

I hear what you're saying tho. I ride with a seat harness and can barely reach the bar at full extension. I can't imagine how to reach it if I were wearing a waist harness.

I love the extra depow range tho.

Short answer is - pull yourself up the depower rope to the bar if you have let go, and you don't want to use the stopper

Mar - that's the idea, but some people - me included - can have a hard time reaching a bar with long throw on the depower when it's at the end of the throw. It's nice to have when you let go the bar - it's basically trying to be the Cabrinha IDS system - but it's actual usability is limited by your arms' reach.
Basically, anything past what you can reach is only there for 'emergencies' and isn't actually useful at all - all you're doing is using the bar when you could be using the trim strap.

Now for the Kamikuza Theory of Bar Usage and Set Up
Assuming your lines etc are correct lengths then there are 3 places you can trim your kite - at the pig-tails (kinda-permanent), at the trim strap (slow but temporary) and at the bar (instant). All that is there just to achieve correct trim for what you want the kite to do.
If you're having to ride with the bar right out at the end of the throw often, then you're over-powered and need to apply some trim to get the bar back into a zone where you can sheet out to depower the kite enough without ruining your stance. If you run out of trim, use a smaller kite.
It's about maintaining the balance of power in the kite and through the board ...

With the Regulator thing, you keep the same total amount of depower (bar throw + trim) but can alter where you have it - you don't actually lose any over-all trim range ...
If you have a total of 100cm travel and you can sheet out 75cm and have 25cm of trim rope, then shifting the Regulator down 25cm gives you 50cm bar throw and 50cm at the trim rope ... the advantage being that you don't have to pull yourself up the depower line

What I see as the advantage of the Regulator is that it'd tidy up that whole cam-cleat thing - the knots make it a bit big and ugly. The problem then becomes that you lose the ability to tune out line stretch easily, unless you add another little system or use the trim rope ...

I have never tried a long throw bar with my kites and I am wondering how the extra throw affects the sweetspot of the kite...

I fly my Syns on a stock zero7 bar (basically 14" of throw?? and a foot of trim) and everything set at the kite to 50%. This gives me a very nice wind range with an impressive top end (I think). With the 15 and riding the surfboard for example, I am still smiling and having a blast at 25 knots and can hang on to about 27 before I will come in for a smaller kite. A sweetspot like no other kite. I weight 170-ish lbs.

Do you begin to lose this sweetspot with the extra throw (depower) available to you? Does it keep depowering and still feel good (or loss of steering?)? or is there a limit?

15M Syn in 25 knots? I still need to try mine on the water. I keep on going to the 12M Rise. Today I was in 25 knots toward the end of my last session and there was some serious power to control. I pulled the below bar trim a bit more.

I really like the below bar for that reason. Instant adjustment between front and back lines. The pigtails at the kite are never adjusted because I can just trim below the bar. I have used the same bar on the 18m Phantom with the landboard and it is easy to adjust to the sweet spot with the stopper to no-hands stability at zenith.

I have a North 5th element bar with my Fuse and it has much the same trimmer as the Switch above. I have not had enough time on it to try out different trim lengths. I currently have it positioned high as a long throw bar.

Quote:

Originally posted by AD72 15M Syn in 25 knots? I still need to try mine on the water. I keep on going to the 12M Rise.

Believe it. With my extra weight I could take a 15 Syn on the water up over 30 mph for sure and not be just surviving but riding and having fun. I've ridden it when all the inflato guys were riding 9s and was well powered only when the strong gusts blew through. I really need a 19 as my basic water kite.

Yeah, the Syn's had mad top end ... the Charger 15 (the only one I've had on the water) just gets too damned fast when the wind gets up :o

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza Yeah, the Syn's had mad top end ... the Charger 15 (the only one I've had on the water) just gets too damned fast when the wind gets up :o

Sounds a bit like why I moved to a 10m Synergy over my Charger !

I am also short armed. With my Navi bar I adjust the stopper back a bit for normal riding. I easily push it away if I am getting nervous.

Of all the changes on the Navi bar it is the adjustable stopper I enjoy the most + gets most used. So nice to set it back a bit and rest with power on a long cruise !

I only tried the Navi on my 15m Syn once. I am extremely familiar with the 15m Syn on it's original bar so prefer it but am sure that is a personal choice. Somewhat the same with my 18m Phantom ? Somehow I like it more on my 07 that medium Navi bar set long?

As Feyd said. The Synergy wasn't designed on a full throw so shortening the throw shouldn't be the biggest mistake ???

I'm with BR. The stopper on the Navi is really sweet. I run my bar on my Chragers, P2's, F-Arcs and P1 and it works great with all of them because I can adjust the stopper according to the kite that I'm riding.

I've heard of people running long throws on Arcs before the Navi came out and how much they liked them. Until I got my Navi's I was perfectly happy with the '04 and '07 bars and thier throws. The kites did basically anything I asked and ocassionally I would tweak with pigtails to get some added stuff.

The Syn did have mad top end. The Phantom 2's do as well.

I've got no complaints about the Charger's top end either. But I will say I have to pay a hell of a lot more attention when it's nukin' because of the lift.:eekdrull:

Another thing to consider regarding the OP topic, is the length of the chicken loop. I managed to pick up some really small ones for my buggy kites that keep the bar close. I think they were made by Airush.

Most of the chicken loops out there are geared for people who want to ride unhooked, so they have to be big enough to get back on your spreader bar. This pushes the bar out further than the rest of us need.

You can always use a pulley bar. It will keep your throw the same but cut your arm reach in half. Only problem is it doubles the bar pressure since you are multiplying your arm movement.