Hi all

As the subject says, I would like to ask the ARC guru's, the timeline of the PL ARC's and differences between them.
Personal experience is much more valuable then some website advertising,

The reason I'm asking this is because I'm really interested in aquiring one for me but since I can't afford a new Charger for the time beeing, I'm on the look out for a used one.
Unfortunatly, in Portugal, there is no used market for ARC's (at least in the foruns that I hang out) so I'll have to search in European foruns, specially, in the UK).

Found some Scorpions, Guerrillas, Bombas but it's difficult to know which was is more adequate to what I want not knowing anything about those kites.

I landboard in a beach that can have the most steady onshore 10 mph wind (where I put my Twister IIR 5.6m to good use) or a really fustrating offshore 5mph with 15-20mph gusty wind. With this type of winds and after reading alot about different types of kites, I truly believe I'll be well served with an ARC but only after knowing more about them.

Thank you all for your input...


P.S.: I'm waiting for a demo of a 10m Charger to be ARC baptized, :D

ok, i'm sure someone will find the link to the arc comparison page but i wanted to give some input about the charger 10m.

ITS REALLY FAST! chargers are really great kites, but the smaller sizes are aggressive in stronger winds....which is what they are meant for. Be careful when you demo it, it may turn you off to arcs because it'll be scary shooting across the window.

I think it is better to start with a larger size, maybe an old 13m venom or 16m venom. the are more stable and not so whippy. im 165 pounds and my go to kite is a 19m charger. my normal winds are 15-25mph. Its a big powerful kite, but more importantly it is very stable since there is so much fabric there. i don't take out my 12m charger unless wind is 30mph plus.

If i was you, i would look for a venom, vortex, or bomba. they are more stable and not so fast. They can do everything you'll need, especially for landboarding. but you will be much safer..........more to come

For what it is worth , I traded my 10m Charger for a 10m Synergy.

As Adam mentions the Chargers are the most responsive of all arcs. Amped up even !

Arcs I suggest are . 13m Venom , VII, 12 or 15m Synergy. Scorpian can be a good deal but are a bit unforgiving, so ... ??

Older arcs all have the strong auto zenith and gust munching but are slower turning and have less depower.

Here is a really quick over view. this is an extremely broad list, not complete by any means, but generally how these kites fly

Guerilla- oldest of the current arcs (excluding the F-arc...sorry Feyd!) Powerful, slow turning, lifty

Guerilla 2- Never used this one

Bomba- slow turning, very grunty, low aspect. Easy to relaunch.

Phantom- High Aspect, not as slow turning, extremely lifty, good park and ride style kite

Venom- mid aspect, better turning, good lift, good grunt, easy to learn with

Vortex- mid/low aspect, good turning, good grunt, easier relaunch, ok lift, easy to learn with

VenomII- good turning, good lift, more comparable to same era of kite surfing kites. Easy to use

Scorpion-Mid/high aspect, good turning, amazing lift, skilled relanch, not as forgiving, a little twitchy(my personal favorite of the older arcs)

Synergy- mid aspect, great turning, good lift, good relanch, easy to use very stable/ok low end.

Charger- mid aspect, fast turning, poppy lift, aggressive in high winds, extremely fast

ARC Setup page

This will give you enough stuff to read for days. I agree on looking for those mid size kites between synergy and venom. Some love the Scorpions but they have a reputation for some reason. I've only flown one for a few minutes myself and was an arc newbie.

There is a 15m synergy still for sale here... from BRPLATZ. I believe
This would probably do you well... :bigok:

On the arc list don't forget the original series - the S-arcs as they are now called: 460, 630, 840, 1120, 1510

an interesting side note - type "840 Arc" into google and look what you find; A property listing for 840 S Arc Way Anaheim California.

It would be nice if there were stickies on this forum. This is a frequently revisited topic.
Van's Wiki may be a good pointer.

I'm gonna try to move any information I see on this forum that is not copyrighted to the Wiki. Any copyrighted stuff will just get a link from the wiki. It is an open right now so anyone can post as long as they register. Please sign the bottom of your post so we know you will be the one to make updates. If you can create the same logon as your PKF logon, that would be great. You can use the same password also. All password are secured so I can't see them either.

It is a non-commercial site so it's intention is only to help others learn about our sport.

Fly - Thanks for that breakdown on models, it helps!

Quote:

Originally posted by lamrith Fly - Thanks for that breakdown on models, it helps!

i know that it is not a perfect detailed list, but its generally a good direction to start looking

Quote:

Originally posted by flyjump ok, i'm sure someone will find the link to the arc comparison page but i wanted to give some input about the charger 10m.

This one? http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/wind_range.htm

Also of note is the addition of a bridle in the Scorpion, Synergy, Charger. That really changes the characteristics of the kite.

Thank you all for your replies.

@flyjump

That's exactly what I was looking for: a list with the what and what not about the different models, :thumbsup:

Since my experience with ARCs is null, I'll wait for the demo before even considering in buying one but now, I know what to look for.
Seen a great deal on a Scorpion 16m KO for £170+PP ($300) but it's best to forget about it and wait for a Synergy.

Thing is, I'll want to buy from European Community person so I don't have problems with customs otherwise I would be more then happy to buy from any of you US guys, :/

@cheezycheese
It's already sold, :/

I bought my two Phantoms in the UK through Kitecrowd.

the scorpions are a great kite, my personal favorite excluding the chargers which i'm on right now. it just takes a little more skill to relaunch them. they have aggressive lift too.

the scorpion and synergy have the vpc bridle system which allows them to turn faster and tighter and also gives them a little bit better of a low end.

the charger is now using the vpc3 bridle system which drastically improves depower, turning speed, and now they have a much better low end then the older model of arcs. good luck on your search!

I am not so sure that the original S-arc series should be discounted ?

While they didn't have the greatest depower they fly well and are very stable. I really like my 460 a lot !

The Farcs are best avoided as an intro.

I am more and more pleased with my 18m Phantom every time I take it out !

Please be aware that arcs need a lot of wind. The 10m Charger you will demo will actually perform at it's best in the 20kts range. Testing it in winds you feel comfortable with may give you a false impression on how these kites work ! Do you have somebody familiar with arcs local to help you out ?

the only reason i'm not including the F-arc and S-arc series because of something i read. on the PL website a few years ago i read that the guerilla series of kites was really when the arcs gained their "comparable to other kites" status. I don't really know much about it, its just something that i read. It seems that it set the standard on arcs. i've never used either of them, so i can't really give out any info

Synergy 15m in England:

http://www.arcusers.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=608

not sure what 300 quid are but sounds cheap maybe...

If the Guerilla is hardly what I would have regarded as "comparable to other kites". That kite was a dog and if it had been my first Arc I probaly wouldn't have pursued other designs.

I've had little expirience with the S series. I have an 840 but I whipped into a backstop and now she's done.

I agree with Bladerunner that an F-Arc is NOT a beginner kite. But if you really want to measure your flying ability get out on one and see how you do. That the kite offers no compassion when the winds pick up. I'd heard the horror stories and can see why they exist but if you can commit and have the where with all and strength to push it around you'll have a hell of a good time. ;-)

I'm completely amazed at what those things do.

The Phantom 1, which is based on the F-Arc is such a dissapointment in comparison. It's a nice kite, don't misunderstand me, but it's supposed to be a slightly mellower F-Arc. But in reality it's a castrated one.

Very much as described. Park and ride.

I love my Chargers. I love my Phantom 2's as well, maybe a little bit more. But neither has the raw power or upwind abililty of the F-Arcs.:wee:

I would save the Venom one was the real game changer for the series. Same basic design as the G1 and G2 but with better turn rate and resulting better pop. The V2 was an even bigger step forward as it took the V1 and incorprated all the mods that had been developed for the V1.

@Soma. The best advice I can give you is try to fly the demo with someone with substantial Arc expirience if you can. Very few people really know what makes an Arc tick and how to get the most out of them. There are a lot of donkeys out there that have a little Arc expirience and think they're experts. In regards to the Charger 10m unless you've flown older Arcs I don't think the speed will be much of an issue. Especially if you've had some expirirence flying LEIs or small fixed bridles. Sure, it's fast but not too fast.

My caution would be towards the lift. She's small but it's still a Charger and the small ones are as lifty as the bigger ones but without the glide.;-)

"quid" is to pounds as "bucks" is to dollars

I understand exactly what Chris (Feyd) is saying about the arc line up - and others on here who will understand but not like the same kites but for different reasons. When the S Arcs came out it was hard to get a grasp on sizing when moving from fixed bridle to the twinskins but eventually realizing they really rocked in higher winds. I had great water sessions with my 840 but found the 1120 and 1510 were slower and didn't quite deliver compared to inflatables I was mixing with - didn't have the steady power delivery and quite often I was probably flying them a little below what would have been a better wind range. When the Gs came out a bunch of our local arc users liked them because they offered a better depower range and had lighter bar pressure and very forgiving. Myself and some others found them tamed down especially in the larger sizes. The G22 was a super dog - big yes but hard to get any power and like driving a bus. The Phantoms then gave a kite that provided great winter riding - leave the kite flying to do other things while staked or flying from my harness, very stable and great upwind and super in a buggy and had a lot of P15 water sessions. Overall though still not a fan of the 18 and although I could ride the 15 in winter into some pretty high wind it was tough to coax anymore speed out of it. On the water the small sizes were a great fall back when we get high gusty winds and the bigger sizes made for a comfortable and very dependable kite and perfect to take when kiting alone. But again compared to advances in the LEI kites they were starting to feel too flexible giving a bit of the helix shape when throwing it around so it would loose a bit on turning response compared to the rigid LEI - so on larger sizes the LEIs were starting to give a better ride and becoming better at relaunch and safety. But the phantoms still gave us what we wanted in the buggy. The venoms came out and Scorpions and our broad local arc users moved on to both. Again large Venoms seemed like so much work to drive around - when solid wind they are a sky hook, less than that you can get carpal tunnel working the bar so much. Again rode both on the water and both worked in winter and in the buggy. The Scorpions could be finicky to launch - and on occasion they took a lot of cursing from almost impossible launching with a few in particular. In the buggy I could go fast enough but they would have a little more bobble compared to a Phantom's stability. Used my 16 on the water a lot and had some great riding days, nice jumps with some good vertical not quite as much float. But what I didn't like was again I found I really had to work the bar a lot compared to my LEIs. Vortex was okay but not my cup of tea. For guys who wanted one kite to use for everything and every condition but far from the most aggressive riders this was their reliable choice. I found on the water i would be in and out of the power zone quickly as I changed angle upwind, not a gradual drop off but more like going through a door and having it disappear.
As surfing took off the amount of buggy riders declined as our season goes winter and water and the beaches to buggy not as accessible all year round so in our local group and with much of the arc users the performance on water drove the design acceptance. The faster turning kites with more grunty power makes the Synergy and now Charger better for that. Still all perform well in the winter but depends if you are looking for speed, jumping or general all round use what will appeal to you. In a buggy the faster turning kites with the sacrifice of stability is not what we wanted - fast yes in terms of forward speed and riding a high angle upwind. but we want a kite that you can comfortably hold with one hand and grip the side rail with your other arm and there is no fear that kite will want to swing up and redirect on you. In winter or on the water i love a kite I can throw around and the turning speed is awesome. So overall a mixed bag of characteristics on different kites and different sizes within those designs that I like. It does surprise me to see some people expressing their likes of some kites that I felt I had moved on from to better things (but I do understand).
I would love a clearly defined - market strategy for the designs but understand it's asking a lot from a very small market share and actually small user base compared to other kites.
have the following choices:
- a kite that is clearly a good stable reliable kite to learn with - probably built a little tougher to take some beginner abuse and priced different from the rest of the range.
- a kite that is targeted at power and turning speed good for snowboard/ski jumpers, landboards and water
- a kite again more of a land based speed kite for buggiers and skiers
OR
find the holy grail of putting all kinds of strap adjustments and bridle configuration options that will give you two kites in one depending on what you want. But like anything trying to appease all, you never get it being the best at any one thing

ramble, ramble ramble....I'm not even going to read this over to see if what I wrote made sense, I should be doing some work...

Well written Mark. Thank you. It is interesting the way the progression from one model to the next has not necessarily been progressive improvements on a design (except maybe V1 to V2) but really changing flight characteristics. Kind of like a musical group that changes its style with each album. Some of the releases are years apart.

I am going to have to start another thread about Ocean Rodeo kites to get the insight from you on them as well. I like it when products have a good design and are just slightly improved over time. The OR Mako and North Rebel come to mind.

Yeah I have learned a good bit from this thread, thanks all, especially OP for starting this brain dump!

Quote:

Originally posted by AD72 I am going to have to start another thread about Ocean Rodeo kites to get the insight from you on them as well.

I went back and corrected some typos etc in that ramble

Speaking of Ocean Rodeo - in a way the Rise is like a Phantom II riding out at the edge, and the Razor and Cypher are more like a Charger, hmmmm a Mako landboard....

Oooh. So I like the Rise = I will like the Phantom II:D

Well written Mark and very entertaining.

Interesting description on the Vortex. I'm always a little curious about that kite because A) I've never flown one and B) you rarely see them for sale. People that I've met that own them seem to really like them. Now I'm more curious than ever.

I think the Phantom 2 will appeal to a broader range of riders than the Charger has for sure. I think it's more versitile than the Charger and the Syns. It does have a somewhat "Synlike" feel but better. I don't know anyone yet that's flown it and not liked it.

I think part of the problem with the Vortex getting out there was the marketing. Grant still has his product description pages up from the time he was the distributor: http://www.canadianwindrider.com/products/vortex/

It was out at the same time as the V2 and despite many good characteristics the part about it being good to learn with put it in many minds as a beginner kite. On the water going from the Gs to the V1 and then the V2 all improvements went toward faster turning and more power and pop - the Vortex seemed too tame to the guys looking for more. It was hard to find anyone who knew much about the difference between the two (Venom/Vortex) so in conversations you always heard "Vortex is a good entry level kite" from many people. The price was the same as the Venom so why would anyone want a beginner kite for the same price as a V2 - that was the overall perception.
We took a couple of sizes of Vortex and Venoms out and flew them together buggying, surfing and in the winter and they had a lot of similarities but the Vortex a rock steady kite, very forgiving, easy launch/relaunch etc. Venoms had a little more speed. On the water I was finding that odd power zone. Everything was good and it was only when I went to try and angle quite a bit higher upwind that I would almost stop where the other kites I could get a sense of slowing down and needing to work the kite.
Now I have one friend that got a Vortex 17 and he is the Vortex roll model die hard superstar. He used that kite for water and snowboarding - he's shorter but not the lightest guy and also rides alone quite often. He would schedule a day that he was going kiting a week in advance and would show up no matter what the conditions were and almost guaranteed to be the wrong direction or something light or crazy gusty - it's Dave's day. The Vortex 17 got so much air time and was so thin, patched, vented and faded it was like his comfortable pair of jeans. No matter what - super high wind, gusty white out in the winter show up at a lake and ask what everyone was flying - Dave - V17, no wind on the water when kites will barely fly - what's Dave going to launch - V17, on off wind - V17, it became a running joke get anywhere, look at conditions and smile at each other and say "V17"
Dave finally replaced his beloved V17 with a Charger 15 - that's a whole other story.... for another time.

Guess i will pipe in on the vortex since i seem to be one of the "lucky" few- I currently have the 10 and 12m and would agree with marks comments as being super stable. It tends to sit more in the window then the edges, has a very steady pull, and will jump well but not as "poppy" as a venom or venom II. The 10m is my son's go to kite and he is soon to be 12yrs old and about 100lbs, and the 12 was my "learning" depower. What they do not have in pop or aggressiviness, is more than made up with in regards to stability and confidence building. I also will fly the 12 on a long bar and the kite turns super fast. Biggest down side in my mind is the upwind ability definitly suffers. this past summer, Andrew and i were flying together me on my venom 16m and him on the 10m vortex and it was easy to see how he had to really work his upwind tacks much more then I did.
Scott

Gaaaa. Now I really want to try one.

Very funny about your friend Dave's 17m. Had a good chuckle and can totally relate.