Greetings!

Got tired of seeing so few posts in here since the event ended, (I missed the last Elmer's trip, for not reading in here), I thought I would stir the pot a bit.

NABX... it's an event, at this point, but what do we want it to be? I have not renewed my AKA membership, based on their distinct avoidance of anything traction, these days, and, of course, due to the lack of insurance coverage. I attend their events occasionally, but I'm not the AKA's kind of kite flyer... I don't waddle to the beach, tie off a kite to the arm of my chair, then sit and verbally trash the venue, the AKA, and other fliers all day. That's been my experience of most "kite club" or AKA-sanctioned events, and it gets old quickly. Nowhere do I see the kind of unity and "family" attitude that the NABX buggy bunch exhibits, nor the sense of adventure and the active lifestyle that traction sports demand.

So, enough about what AKA is NOT... what is NABX? Can it be the "new" AKA of buggy?

Drop some replies in here, and address some of the following:

1. What products, services, or information could be supplied by NABX to the traction (buggy?) community, that would enhance and grow our sport? Think products, promotions, events, discounts with retailers, gear, educational venues like clinics, training, safety certifications, an actual "buggy license" to help ease the minds of law enforcement types, etc.

2. What level of dues support would I (yeah, you!) be able to sustain, if I knew the money were used on my behalf to stage and support more events, products, and services? How much per year? How much per month?

3. Should NABX be a buggy organization, a general traction sports organization, a general kiting organization, and why?

4. If NABX represented my interests in the U.S. and, eventually, world-wide, what sort of procedural or political process should it encompass? Should leaders be elected, appointed, volunteer-only, incorporated (paid), or non-profit? What would I choose, and what would the advantages of that choice be?

5. The name, "NABX", by reference, is a buggy-centric event name. It's also the name of a large pesticide producer in the midwestern U.S., often emblazoned on silos in the fields. Should we change it? Is there a better idea for an organization name that would more truly represent traction sports generally? Toss an idea out here... we'll have great fun trashing, bending, and mutilating it!

6. Is Dean Jordan really who we all *think* he is? Or is he really a representative of an alien government seeking total domination of all mankind? (Yes, that's Chewbacca in the old grey VW that reeks of Bushmill's).

7. Can a bunch of disorganized, randy, sweaty, speed-seeking, Bushmill's-drinking, Shot-Car wheeling buggy bastards actually organize for their own protection, promotion, and solidarity, without ANYONE getting killed in the process?

Okay, seven's enough for a start... I flung the poo, now what ya gonna do with it?

-Dooley :moon:

Right on Dooley
I have some answer but need to think them out.......so I will be back
and come on Chewie I know you have something to say........

Flyin High
Shannon :singing:

"I flung the poo, now what ya gonna do with it?"

I am going to keep Caddo away from it so he does not eat it!.....aj

AJ, did ya HAVE to go there? that is not a visual I needed at work, PMSL!!!
Sean

Good ideas Dooley. Thinking at the moment.

Susan

we talked about this exact issue a lot during and after this years nabx. i think there should be a formal organization. the major reason i see to be organized is insurance and correspondance. the bbc, british buggy club has over 6,000 members who pay 15 pounds a year (about 20 usd) that covers them with insurance for the year.

i am going to contact the bbc and see what there is to learn from them.

there is always strength in numbers, however...building consensus is no easy task.

back with individual points to the items you raised soon.

i vote for Caddo as leader of our pack! as long as he can keep that human of his under control.

meg

dooley.....i like poo flinging......like the ideas , so where do we go from here, and how can i help

Well Mr. !(*)!, whoever you are, i didn't see Mr. Dooley trashing things, and at least he signs his name.

As far as organizing races, the AKA has done more to hurt traction kiting in the US than help it, in my opinion.

As the founding organizer of AKA traction sports in the US i have a little experience with this subject. Sure it's just my opinion and we all know everyone has one, but, hear me out.

When we first set out to organize racing, and such in the US we set up a simple set of rules that let people have fun. When we first started racing out on Ivanpah, did you know we had over 48 enty's in the first enduro?

Why do you think those numbers steadily dropped over the years? Was it because no one wanted to do it anymore? No, it was a lot of factors, one being it lost being fun. Once you tell an american that green means stop, and he's got to learn a rule book published by the French, most folks here lose interest. The AKA adopted the FISLY rules system which few people use anymore, and i for one stopped racing right then and there.

We knew in the beggining that if buggy racing went the way of yacht racing it would be no fun, and lo and behold it wasnt', and people stopped doing it. We were lucky if we could field 8 people for a race.

Well guess what? That time is over. AKA lost our insurance, lost interest in traction(or never had it), and is bleeding members like a stuck pig. It's a shame, i've supported the organization for years, and Dave has done an overall great job, but he can't do it by himself, and the people who have taken over, in my opinion are more intersted in carrying their clip boards around and wearing a jersey with a number on it than flying kites.

Fine, fantastic, keep playing folks, enjoy the convention, enjoy each others company, continue to make more and more rules, cause that's what you need to fly kites, they are oh so complicated, and oh, by the way, for goodness sakes, don't let the public in, why would they want to fly kites. Also, keep flipping your little stunters back and forth for the ever decreasing crowd of people so that no onlooker could possibly know what the hell your doing while soaking up most of the resources, hogging all the fields, and keeping your nose up in the air.

At least the fighter guys still know what kite flying is all about. Go to any fighter compition and you'll see smiles and laughter, not so on the sport kite field, mostly grim and lots of people scratching their heads trying to figure out what points to give another guy that just flew like the last guy.

Most people in modern American kiting haven't even seen a real routine. If it don't make the crowd(read non-kiteflyers) stand up and take notice, believe me, it isn't art! It's masturbation, plain and simple.

Okay, that's just part of it. Meanwhile back to your insurance thing. What good is it if you can't use it? Used once, taken away. Worthless.

Next the few times we had racing and had fun, like Indiana, we had the old rules, and we were near the rest of the folks, but once you shove us off out of the way, or put us where we can't buggy, it's not even part of the convention. Anyone rememeber Tulsa??? That was fun!

So, the AKA is almost dead. Meanwhile, you want to give Mike Dooley a hard time for people contributing to his defense fund, because some of us are AKA members? Shame on you. It didn't happen the way you describe anyway, and was much more of an individual stepping up to help Mike than and AKA thing anyway.

So, can you stick to the point, answer the questions, take part in the discusion, or do you just want to make personel attacks while hiding behind some weird handle?

Dooley was up front, honest, and put something out there that needs to be discussed. If you have a beef with him, or NABX say it to him, or to us. You don't need to take the thing sideways.

Meanwhile, i'll step up, say Thank you Mike Dooley for bringing this up, i wanted to discuss this at NABX, but we just didn't get to it.

I may always be an AKA member, because it is the only kite club in our country and i feel you can't say something about a system unless you are part of it, and have tried to make it better. This does not mean it might not be time for a change. Change is good. Long live the AKA, long live NABX.

Bring it.

oh, and here's how you finish something like this, you sign your name, so everyone knows who you are.

dean jordan

Thanks Dooley and Dean

for the record...!(*)!...i really hate to reply to someone who does not have the balls to sign their name when throwing stones...what pray tell are you over compensating for...size?

but i'll make an exception for you.

"What happend to the Enduro races and circuit races that were always part of the Buggy Blast. Doesn't seem like your family can organize much beside some free riding and a rag race."

that says it all...do you not understand that when we gather at nabx it is for many reasons? racing is but one small part of the nabx event.

it is people like you who are obsessed with competition and try to force it down everyone elses throat, that has ruined the aka.

it is people like you who think your way is the only way, that has ruined the aka.

it is people like you who do nothing but criticize while hiding, that has ruined the aka.

and i'd be very careful praising gomberg...it is his self serving agenda that has plummeted the aka membership from 5,000 to 3,500 in the recent past.

and at the end of the day...there is really only one thing to ask people like you...if we as a group are so disagreeable to you, what the hell are you doing in our midst?

Meg Albers

:D:singing:
THANKS SO MUCH DEAN!!!!!!! YOU PUT IT IN A MUCH NICER WAY THAN I WANTED TO!!!!!!

AND FOR THE RECORD ONCE MORE THIS IS HOW YOU FINSH

FLYIN HIGH
SHANNON

Well, someone had "my back", as it were, and took someone else to task for an apparent inappropriate response to my post. However, I was being lazy this weekend and avoiding technology, so I didn't see the response which engendered such great replies. A shame... I would have enjoyed a little flame, doncha know?

Anyway, I posted this to stimulate thought, suggestion, contribution from the general membership of NABX, not to foment a rebellion against AKA or FISLY rules, or none o'that stuff. I will probably still retain my AKA membership, for those festivals where I like to go fly sport kites, like WSIKF. It's only 30 bucks a year, after all.

And, one important point I missed in my initiating post here... that THANKS ARE OWED TO ALL THOSE AKA MEMBERS WHO DUG IN THEIR POCKETS TO SEND SOMETHING FOR MY LEGAL DEFENSE.

It was never my intent to de-value the contributions of AKA members, but to point out that traction sports are, apparently, NOT what AKA wants to do, or be part of, as has been evidenced by their steadily diminishing support of traction, loss of the insurance, and consistent failure to provide a venue for traction at major festivals. The AKA is the AKA, and serves its purpose for specific types of kiting... just not traction. We, as traction enthusiasts, now need to step up to the plate, IMHO, and take care of organizing and protecting OUR version of kite flying. I would still stand shoulder-to-shoulder on behalf of ANY kiteflier who was denied access, kicked out of a venue, restricted from a kite-related activity in public, any of that. And I believe that AKA, the fighter kite organization, the kitesurfers, and all other traction sports should all have a provision for legal defense for any participant who gets in a bind through the simple act of using their equipment in a public place, as I did.

I did not, frankly, expect or anticipate the kind of support that was forthcoming in my defense. I am glad that I didn't have to struggle all this year to pay for the lawyer, and there were many special contributors, (AND THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE), who sent me monetary gifts via other means, intentionally keeping private their desire to help, and wanting no credit for themselves. And, so that no one thinks I'm unaware, I was told that Mr. Dave Gomberg contributed, as well.

So, long story short... I'm not trashing AKA, or devaluing the contributions to kiting that AKA has made for years in this country, and that AKA members made toward the legal defense of one kiter.

I am seeking thoughtful, careful analysis of the crossroads at which we stand, and hoping this group (NABX participants) will responsibly take us on to the next level of organization and promotion of traction sports in the USA.

I apologize to anyone I offended by suggesting that some thinking and group consensus was in order; however, I submit that those who react in anger to being asked to think, should perhaps leave thinking to the better equipped, yes?

the discussions we had about a traction organization were in addition to aka, not instead of.

this discussion should also be held with the big picture in mind, what is best for the future of our sport and events, not about any one individual or particular incident. that is the trick of the political and religious fanatics, to take an isolated extreme example and use it as the reason for change like a common occurance.

we will never please everyone, but it should not be that hard to do what is best for most.

go fly a kite,
Meg Albers

hey mike and dean
i sit here reading this post trying to think of something to add.
my aka membership is up for renew. i`m really on the fence
as to renew or not.
as i see it. now this is only me talking. buggying or any traction kite thing will never be on the aka`s front burner.
we just don`t have that many traction kiters here in the US. stunt kites and single line will always be the back bone of the aka. and thats not a bad thing. but again, this is me. i`m thinking if the aka wants me as a member. support my type of kiting. BUGGYING. when i got into kiting. (about 12yrs ago). i was all about single line. the aka was great for that type of flying. all the while i`m thinking i got to try this buggy thing out. but kiting is just like any other sport. you have to learn to crawl before you can walk. so i started flying single line kites. moved up to stunt kites and than power kites.
but for me theres no turning back to single line or stunt kite.
its buggying or nothing. i am at a point where i took kiting as far as i want to go. I JUST WANT TO BUGGY. i don`t care if its at aka event or not.
i never got into buggying to race. yea the flapper race was cool. i never thought i`d win all 3 races. but thats just it. it was FUN.
i get off my soap box now.
anyway. GOOD JOB MIKE AND DEAN.
i love you guys. MY BUGGY FAMILY

Buggy Brethren and Sistren,

I don't think it's about any of the personalities, except that those personalitites often define the organization or event.

Many want, and a few actually do.

Those doers become the face of events and organizations.
By default.

I watched how competition changed sport kite flying.
From sport kite flyers hanging out on the weekends, socializing and flying in groups, laughing and enjoying themselves, providing an entertaining diversion for passers-by, to an ever-diminishing crowd of spectators standing and watching as one person (or one team) flys the same basic routines as the last one.

I still fly sport kites, but I quickly lost interest in sport kite competitions.
As dean so aptly noted; It has become a form of public masturbation.

The AKA has wanted buggys at their convention because a few have voiced that desire. The AKA seeks to provide for their members.

Honestly, with the space requirements for groups to buggy, it seems even more inappropriate to try to schedule kite events and buggy events at the same place and time, unless the specific site offers enough space
Just because we want something doesn't mean it is right or proper.

In Europe, with most parts of central Europe within a days drive, having large attendence at events is not unusual. It is largely unavoidable.
Much of their racing consists of elimination-heats to bring the field to a smaller, more manageble level.
Once again leaving most of the riders as spectators.

We don't have the land restrictions here in the western U.S like they have in the EEU. Public lands abound and non-organized events don't have onerous insurance restrictions, nor problems with public access.
So the need for an umbrella organization to provide insurance and address access issues is not so pressing.

In North America, with most buggies on either coast, seperated by much larger distances, a different culture has arisen.
When we get together, we tend to like to ride together.
Sharing the wind with like-minded riders.
Out exploring and having adventures.

Racing can be fun, but it isn't the only way to play on the buggy.
There is a difference between having a buggy-meet and having buggy races.

A failure of communication has occured.
Racing has become a default position.
As if all buggy riders want to race as their only way to play

So when the AKA asks if we want to have "buggy races" at the convention and we say "no", we're saying "no" to racing, not buggying.
We've always been interested in having events that include folks.
But it's been tough to get that idea across to non-buggyers.

Maybe racing is a "boy thing" about proving something.

I'm glad that in the buggy game we've managed to come up with some new ways to play.

Instead of racing, making one a "winner", and by definition all the others "losers", we tend to ride together and make friends.
From those friendships we've created a sense of family.
When we do have competitions, among these friends, they tend to be fun-filled, laughter-racked events.

I guess I'm saying that I prefer being a buggy rider to a buggy spectator.
I like to ride with my friends.

I want to live in that world.
So I have to be that guy.

Wanna come buggy?


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

Corey Jensen
Biff the Paperboy
Cobey "Buckshot" Bensen
You A**Hole!

Hey Dooley, you didn't miss much. Just some blowhard bemoaning the lack of racing this year at NABX. Nevermind the fact he didn't even attend and has "never raced formally" according to his "sponsor".

I've never raced buggys. Used to race cars and enjoyed it immensely until those that took it too seriously ruined the fun events too. I saw some of that creeping into Ivanpah in years past so didn't miss the Circuit and Enduro races this year. Did enjoy watching, and being a part of the "rag" races tho.

Which brings up the point I want to make. To run a race you need people for flagging, cornering, and timing. Paid race officials are not included in your registration fee so they need to be staffed by volunteers. It's a lot to ask someone to stand out there on the playa for hours at a time watching racers go around in circles. It shouldn't be a requirement for those that organize NABX, though it usually falls in their lap. They have enough to do already.

Therefore, I suggest to those that want to race, get a little organized yourselves and help find the people to staff the race within your own ranks. Then let the organizers know what you would like to do. NABX can be anything you want it to be if you just help make it happen.

Quote:

Originally posted by mecdave NABX can be anything you want it to be if you just help make it happen.

Man ain't that the truth! and folks, we've already talked about this, but it is so true. It is your event, we will help facilitate whatever folks want, and i mean what ever.

Dooley, has started a discussion which needs to be. What comes of it, i don't know.

The problem with all volunteer organizations is you have to run them by volunteers. This takes commitment and dedication. It's easy to complain, but it is a tough tough job, and unless someone is willing to step up and lead, things just don't happen.

I would back an organization for traction sports big time. We need it, and we could grow it. I just don't know how it is going to work.

Big time open to discussion though. Sure would like to talk about it, and sure would like to see us grow our sport. There are a lot of issues as Dooley's pointed out.

Let's kick this thing and see where we can take it.

aoxomoxoa!

I am new to all this and now that I’ve found it; I don’t want to loose it. Personally, I know I could and would and say now to who ever needs to know that I am willing to dedicate at least one or two hours per day at the next NABX. My schedule, regardless of the exact dates for next year will be: 0800/0900 until 2100/2200 on each day of the event. I live in Las Vegas and will return home each night except Friday and Saturday; next year I am opting for a room at the hotel.

I am not particular (at this time) in what capacity I am to be used; unless I am personally involved with a race or other event at the time I am needed. Saying that, makes me realize that pre-registration is very important to the planning of the event. At the last NABX there were lots of folks sitting around basking in the sun talking and drinking that might have been able to do some flagging, cornering, and timing. I honestly believe that all ( I ) they needed was to be asked to volunteer to do something and ( I ) they would have.

I believe we need some sort of OFFICIAL officials, more than a president, secretary, treasurer or other such tribunal (which we will ultimately have to have). We need an OFFICIAL organizer and not just volunteers, which are important to any event, but seriously dedicated individuals (notice that the word “individuals” is plural) to assist them in whatever capacity they are needed. I know that there are some of those individuals working in that capacity now, but not in an OFFICIAL capacity and hence they have to make decisions with kid gloves on, they are made to walk on egg shells to avoid the possibility of making someone angry.

I believe that if such OFFICIAL’s (maybe wearing cool T-Shirts) existed and that they were giving the power to make the important decisions that have to be made regarding our countries main traction event, regardless of what they maybe and the possible toes stepped on; our event would and will grow even bigger and better.

Hi Guys!

I wondered why my ears were burning. Guess I've found out now...

If what I've read here is any indication, there is a misperception about the AKA's role in traction, or any other kind of kiting.

AKA doesn't do things for you. AKA provides a environment where you can do things for yourself. We have financial resources, a non-profit status, a magazine, a web page, and a lot of good folks as members. But if you were hoping that for 30 bucks a year, we were going to satisfy all your needs and solve all your problems, you are going to be disappointed.

Let me put that a different way. You don’t want me deciding what AKA will do for buggies. You don’t want people like me deciding. You want people like you doing it!

In AKA, the Sport Kite Committee, made up of sport kite fliers, determines policies and priorities for sport kiting within the Association. Same goes for Fighter Kites, Kite Making, Aerial Photography, and everything else.

Why is it AKA isn’t doing more for buggies? Perhaps we should ask the Traction Committee.

Oh – wait a minute. We don’t presently have a traction committee. Why is that?? Simple. No one wants to chair it and the folks that were members either dropped off or didn’t renew their membership. And that includes some of the good people here posting to this topic and asserting that AKA hasn’t done enough…

So I’ll make a public offer right here and now. Any of you who are current members, I will happily appoint to the AKA Traction Committee. All you have to do is raise your hand. I will then let you choose your own Committee Chair. I’ll put that Chair on the AKA Insurance Committee along with one other member of the Traction Committee (Chairman’s choice who). And I’ll put the Committee in charge of deciding what buggy activities (fun riding, racing, workshops, teaching, or forums) are held at convention. Get ten buggiers to attend and we'll insure it. I’ll give you space in Kiting for anything you want to print. And I’ll invite you to prepare a budget for buggy programs in 2007.

BTW – this isn’t a new offer. I put the last Chair of the Traction Committee on the AKA Exec and Insurance Committee. We also budgeted $2000 for a buggy insurance rider at Convention, but dropped it when we couldn’t get 10 buggy riders to commit to attend.

So -- I'm inviting you guys set the agenda, determine the priorities, and do the follow-through. But if no one steps-up, you don’t get to complain that AKA isn’t interested. Because AKA is begging for your involvement. The message we’re getting is that you aren’t interested in us!

Insurance? Yeah – we all got screwed on that one. But understand that the insurance companies dropped us, not the other way around. And yes, AKA has explored the BBC, along with a number of other options. We are presently researching whether we can use our non-profit status and umbrella event policy to cover buggy-only events – the same way we had planned at convention - even if the cost is higher than standard sanctioning. Sure be nice to have a buggy rider working on the problem (and a solution) with us.

So – I’m glad you guys are having fun and making plans. Sincerely! I wish you the very best. I’d love to have AKA more involved but that is up to you, not to me.

Hope to hear back from some of you soon.

dg

Thank you for the offer David, it will generate some sincere discussion.

pay attention to those ears.

meg

I think the peception that the AKA doesn't care about traction is quite false. I've become more active in the AKA as a result of traction. I've been a co chair of the traction committee. From what posted here you would think that Keith Anderson and I were power mad when we led the adoption of the fisly rules. The truth was at the time the active majority wanted the AKA to be more in sync with the europeans (not just the french) the Germans and the BBC. The goal was that much like sport kite championships there would be Americans competing on an international circut. So we after study and discussion adopted the rules in use by the rest of the buggy world in racing. What madethe american buggy scene so much fun was all the other stuff where the rules were our if there were ant at all. GPS races, enduro, freestyle and the new pimp your ride. While I've never raced other than a slow enduro, I worked many races as a cog so other could enjoy racing. In 2001 the we made the painful desition not to have buggy races in Ocean City where convention was held because there was no practical venue. That site had been chosen because it was where the first AKA was held 25 years earlier. Buggy races returned the next year in Dayton. I don't buggy as much as I'd like but I still try as work and personal life allow . I still think of traction as the most fun I have in kiting getting out and rolling.
IT was at NABX where one of the two incidents that caused the loss of insurance, as pointed out, insurance was not dropped by the AKA it was taken away as a result of claims both involving traction kites. Many have said it before and I'll say it again don't like the way the AKA does things, step up, because you are the AKA .
Rob Cembalest

I must be maturing, i'm not even upset by this Rob. First thanks for your efforts.

Many of us tried to point out that changing our rules to suit a few (and believe me, it was a few) folks so they could race internationally wouldn't work. We tried to point out that we have a large country here. We tried to point out that going the way of yacht racing would ultimatley make the sport no fun. We tried to point out that complicating things with obviously flawed rules wouldn't attract new people. It doesn't work with sport kiting, it doesn't work with buggy racing. That was your first mistake. You say you wanted to make it like sport kiting, well that doesn't work either. Who looks forward to going to one of those events? They suck.

Beside, why can't we as Americans, lead the way? We have many times in the past, we could have taken the lead, showed the FUN way, and if people wanted to go to Europe to race, they could. Hell it was only a handful anyway, i never would of 'cause their rules suck and are stupid. They fell into the same trap we warned you about.

Now we've been vidicated. They no longer use the FISLY rules in GB, though they do have some screwed up racing in Europe. Did you know, that if you come into their little group and go faster than everyone else, they will just outlaw your kite? This is a fact. It's one class their, all flying the same kites. Sound like fun? Not to me.

This was the very thing we warned you about from the beggining. The people who started organized racing in the US, myself, Peter Lynn, Fran Gramkowski, all had experience in other racing venue. Guess what? We were right. It isn't fun to learn who won after you get out of the protest room. It isn't fun to establish a one class of racing. It isn't fun to have a huge staff to run the races. It isn't fun to have huge buggy's roaring around the track for a half hour when we know the guy in the lead has already won.

You say the active majority wanted it, that is false. I was active, very active, and i lobbied hard for you guys to get your heads out of the sand, to talk to people here, you talked to a vocal few, who incidently aren't that active, anymore, while, guess what, WE still are.

I love racing. I will not race anyone when they tell me i have to learn a book full of rules so complicated that green means stop, just to go around in a circle with my friends. It isn't that complicated. We never had trouble till the rules were changed my friend. That is fact. Racing here died right away. That is fact.

Now we have a chance to bring it back. We've shown that there is interest in racing. If all the people that write into this discussion alone, are the only ones to race and administer the racing next year, we will have a great time.

I will post the rules here shortly on another topic.

Now to the issue of insurance. I believe that it is disingenous to say that it was lost because of traction. That was just the first claim, and like any other tissue paper insurance, you use it once and it's taken away. Allright, that is not uncommon with insurance. Where is it's replacement?? Are you trying to tell me we are uninsurable? I don't believe it.

So Mike Dooley has opened a discussion. Don't tell me the AKA is pro anything, they are not even pro kite flying. Last time i was there, they sent a 15 year old girl to tell me i couldn't fly my kite. Hey thanks a lot. Then they made up a story that said i cursed her. I did not. There were two people there, who can varify what happened, don't take my word for it. This is the atmosphere i want to be in to fly kites? I don't think so. I will remain an AKA member because it's the only game, but i don't like it anymore, and i'm upset at the way my friends and i have been treated. There is far to much self importance. Remember, we fly kites. There are far to many rules. We fly kites. There is not enough public interaction. We fly kites. You can't bring a friend to the banquet. JTFC i can bring a friend to any organized banquet i've ever been to, not the AKA, they have to be a member and have to pay a huge price. We just fly kites! We are not the illumanati!

There is so much wrong with the AKA now, i don't know if it can be saved. Oh, and if you think i haven't contributed, guess again, find out how much money i've raised directly or indirectly. Have i ever been thanked? Whatever, i didn't do it for that anyway. Did i go in front of the board in a suit and tie in 1990 when they wanted to ban all traction at the conventions?

So, address what Mike has written about. Don't tell me the AKA is mine to do with what i want. I've tried, and tried. AKA could have had kite surfing, they weren't interested. We were shouted down. We tried not to go to Billings, we were cut off. Boy that resulted in huge gains didn't it??? If it wasn't for David, we would have been broke and done back then(thank you David)but one guy can't do it all.

If i see another person with a clip board headed my way when i'm on a kite field, i swear i'm going to implode. You guys need to move, you have to get your vehicle out of here, you can't do this, you can't do that, hey we need more rules, pay more, pay more, no insurance, judges that don't build, don't fly, sport kiting that has regressed so far no one can make sense of it, indoor flying that won't let you use multiple kites? You can't touch the wall??? and for god sakes please don't utter the word safety to me. I've flown in front of 250,000 people, buggied in crowds that big, all without rules, all with a 100% safety record. I do kiting for my life, for my living, i only get a hard time when i'm around organized kiting. Only!!! Weird ain't it????

100% safety record, treated like i just fell off the turnip truck. Guiness book of world records larges load, largest traction kite, does anyone actually know what profesional kite flyers do for a living?

I'm ready for a change. I'm ready to be led by profesionals, who have a sense of fairness. Who recognize the fun we have, the joy we bring to induviduals, to the smiles we put on peoples faces, to the people who enjoy pulling a kite string without a bunch of rules to govern them, but have a great deal of common kite sense, experience and know how.

So let's discuss this, but please, the past is done. I don't blame you, i love you, and Keith and all the people that have helped out. It is a thankless job. You guys tried. It didn't work out. Let's move on.

Now what can we do to make things better? Is there a strong leader who could speak for us, who could lead us into the twenty first century of traction kiting, can we get insurance, will we be able to start racing again, and still have fun?

Thank you Mike Dooley, and all the people who support NABX. Thank you for the great group of people that have written off channel to support us.

Now what can we do to make this thing work??

dean jordan
El Mirage
aoxomoxoa
may 17 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Rncembal I think the peception that the AKA doesn't care about traction is quite false. I've become more active in the AKA as a result of traction. I've been a co chair of the traction committee. From what posted here you would think that Keith Anderson and I were power mad when we led the adoption of the fisly rules. The truth was at the time the active majority wanted the AKA to be more in sync with the europeans (not just the french) the Germans and the BBC. The goal was that much like sport kite championships there would be Americans competing on an international circut. So we after study and discussion adopted the rules in use by the rest of the buggy world in racing. What madethe american buggy scene so much fun was all the other stuff where the rules were our if there were ant at all. GPS races, enduro, freestyle and the new pimp your ride. While I've never raced other than a slow enduro, I worked many races as a cog so other could enjoy racing. In 2001 the we made the painful desition not to have buggy races in Ocean City where convention was held because there was no practical venue. That site had been chosen because it was where the first AKA was held 25 years earlier. Buggy races returned the next year in Dayton. I don't buggy as much as I'd like but I still try as work and personal life allow . I still think of traction as the most fun I have in kiting getting out and rolling. IT was at NABX where one of the two incidents that caused the loss of insurance, as pointed out, insurance was not dropped by the AKA it was taken away as a result of claims both involving traction kites. Many have said it before and I'll say it again don't like the way the AKA does things, step up, because you are the AKA . Rob Cembalest

I'm glad you're not upset Dean. I still try to live by HWDD (how would Dean drive) .I wanted to point out that the rule changes were not done to hurt the sport that we did look into the situation and Keith spent many hours working on them (me less so ) At that time I was not working in the kite industry and was not a racer or sponsored in any way. What we did we did with the best intentions. History may have proved the we made the wrong choice I have no problem admitting that . IT's the underlying tone that implies that the "AKA" powers did it to hurt buggiers that bothers me. We were asked to step into a void and deal with an issue we did that to the best of our abilities and put in our time helping and observing many racing venues and spoke to both the old hands and those up and coming. We listened to those who were trying to set up a national seris of racing events. It never worked out that way and well before the insurance problem.
I brought up the insurance again because the AKA didn't lose traction insurance ,they lost all insurance and faced a mad scamble to get coverage in any form. All of the carriers that were willing to write a policy were unwilling to cover traction for us lumped in with other coverage. I know where NABX get coverage and have talked to Bruce and forwarded that info to the insurance committee as well as asking them to explore a individual policy for individual buggiers. The kite surfers are currently offered that but it excludes traction on land snow kiting and land boards. As David stated the Board approved of paying a premium to have racing available in Seaside last trip there. But the traction committe and traction fliers did not commit enough interest. Looking back again I wish we knew before that Peter was coming and bringing new toys That may have gotten the traction covered anyway.
Having been to the conventions Dean mentions and enjoying both watching the racing and getting some time in the buggy at both venues I think we have to look at the viability of buggy racing and the convention. IT requires lots of space lots of people to run a race and more importantly the right wind. I was also in TI for that race and spent the full day waiting for conditions to improve. I was committed to other vollunteer duties when the race was run the next day. I was also at Santa Monica where racing was forced off site out to Elmer before convention and racing never occured due to conditions. I think NABX is absolutely the best venue for racing with the best organization to run a national championship for buggiers. Does the AKA have to have all champions decide in the same place the same week ? Unlike sport kites racing still does not have any qualifiing standards (the fields have not reqired it) We may have respectfully disagreed on direction time to time but the respect has always been there and will be. Rob

hello everyone,

i would like to suggest we stop trying to get people to agree on the past. it won't change anything.

i would like to start talking about how to go forward with what is best for kite traction.

Hey Dean!

I'll let the buggy expers debate the finer points of buggy rules. But I do have a couple of quick points on other issues --

1) Non members certainly can attend the Convention banquet. They don't have to register. They just have to buy a banquet ticket.

2) Insurance solution is easy? I hear it wasn't so easy for NABX last time. And getting coverage for a set number of people on a specific date is a lot easier than getting coverage for an undertermined number of pople at variable number of events. That's what we're up against with event sacntioning.

3) I've thanked you every year from the Auction stage.

dg

Just to Dave. I'm for sure not talking about you. You were the solution, not the problem. You and i go way back. You trusted me way back and made me the first traction chair.

I want to move this forward.

There are a lot of misconceptions. About the AKA, about the insurance, about how things are organized, about censorship on this site(we did NOT take the letter that started the flames down) about who did what.

Many people, and i'll try to cover this later but i'm in the middle of work, and am getting the stink eye. Anyway, many people have worked tirelessly to get traction accepted. To make rules, to get insurance, etc. I've made my point i hope.

I do not find fault with Dave Gomberg, sorry if you felt that way Dave, it's more with others. Do i have some beefs? Yeah, so what. Now let's move on.

I want to get back to the Dooley discussion. Can we do that??

aoxomoxoa

On Mikes points and some new ones
I like all the suggestions in the 1 heading but do you need to have NABX do that ? I'd love to see the traction Committee at AKA address those benifits. Dues ? the AKA is looking into using the unbella of the association to get an insurance company to grant individual buggy insurance like the kite surfers now have. Would NABX supports be willing to pay for it and we will have to get the figures to debate if people are willing to pay it. News letters ? We have web sites now and they seem to be doing a great job . in addition there is Kiting when was the last article submitted for traction?
Racing ? some want others don't care. Lets get the numbers
AKA convention should we obsess about racing and having a AKA champ or should we gather and buggy ? Would the numbers for the coverage make more sense if there were space made available and should racing happen it could happen without the pressure of giving away wood?

> I do not find fault with Dave Gomberg, sorry if you felt that way Dave, it's more with others. Do i have some beefs? Yeah, so what. Now let's move on.

Hey Dean!

I have absolutely no problem with you either. Your contributions are the stuff of legend...

I was just clarifiying a few points about banquets and stuff. Sorry if it came across wrong.

dg

OK.
A couple days to let things stew.

Lack-o-Slack really lived up to his nickname.
Stir the pot and fling the poo.

Get the conversations started.

First: the difference between "NABX - the event" and any governing buggy organization. Perhaps all "organization" looks the same from the outside, but it's not.

NABX is the event.
Perhaps NABC - North American Buggy Cult - could be the umbrella organization.

We would need simply a Commisioner - to sign the legal stuff, etc...
And a spokesman - To speak for the group and the sport.

The Power Kite Committee of the AKA has good intentions, and the chairs have worked hard trying to provide what the vocal members said they want.
But they have no real power.
They weren't elected by the buggy riders.
They aren't our leaders, but representatives, appointed to their positions.

Consequently, they have been sort of the bottom of the chute.
Everything gets dumped on them, but they have no authority.

There are few if any local buggy clubs.
No elected representatives.
No buggy leader.

It's like herding cats.

Many kiters are drawn to the buggy specifically because of the freedom.
We live and work in a man-made world.
So for balance in our lives, we go play in the natural, elemental world.
We buggy when the wind allows, not when the whistle blows.

Being less inclined to organized buggy activities, having fewer opportunities to gather in groups, a racing organization wouldn't seem to address the specific needs of this growing sport in North America.

The AKA insurance was never intended as a primary individual insurance.
It was intended as third level coverage, after our personal and homeowners policies.
And as a way for our disparate local kite clubs to have access to a reasonably affordable event insurance policy.

If buggy events are ever to be covered, will it be by our personal policies?
NO!

Our only hope for future insurance coverage is to present ourselves as a group. The AKA is the reasonable way to eventually achieve this.
The AKA has a louder voice than any of us as individuals.

The AKA is already a sanctioning body, providing standards and rules that can be used across the land to ensure fairness and safety.

To expect the AKA to run or organize buggy races is asking too much.
If buggy riders want to race, those same riders need to step up and organize those races.
We need to become more responsible for our own fun.

A seperate organization?
When we can't make what we already have work effectively?

I doubt if there is even a consensus on what we want.

Do we want organization?
Or do we want opportunity?

Giving it a couple days of thought, I've come to the conclusion that I don't want more organization.
I'd like more communication, and I think this forum is prime in accomplishing that.
I'd like more opportunity to buggy with more of my brothers and sisters I don't get to see or ride with regularly.

But mostly I want to be left alone so I can buggy and keep myself sane.
(Note: sanity is a relative state)

I've got tons of other ideas churning about in my head, but that's enough for now.

Comments?


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

nobody wants more organization. nobody wants to be the one that has to act like an adult, ESPECIALLY with this group. there are however certain realities, like needing a permit from BLM for NABX, and to get that permit we need insurance. The AKA is not an option for insurance for traction events at this time. If they become an option down the road they can be added to the equation.

everything we think of doing, and throw out for discussion, is so the status quo can continue at Ivanpah...not so anyone can be organized, no one wants to be the gate keeper, we were only doing what was absolutuely neccessary so nabx can continue. we are not looking for more work, we are looking for solutions to problems and obstacles that arise.

meg

Hey all,

Well I have been trolling this post reading what everyone has to say long enough. I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in now.

*Warning*
This is a HUGE post

***BIG @$$ DISCLAIMER***
All opinions and views provided in this are mine alone. Take this as input, not gospel. It is just a jumble of thoughts I had about what is being said here.

First, Good going Mike! See what you started! Remind me to give you a case of O'Douls the next time I see you.

Second, I agree that the past is the past. Learn from it and let it die.

This post was started to open topics to discuss and solve. Lets do just that.

Topic - Developing a Kite Traction Organization:
Is it a good idea or not?

First I need to say "Thank You" to the NABX committee. Words alone cannot express my appreciation for everything you do to make the event happen. My hat's off to you!

With that, I feel that it is unfrotunate for these people how much they have to do. Dean driving around in the D.E.A. "Dean Enforcement Agency" mobile checking on things and coordinating people. I didn't see him with a kite once this event. Claxton, The Ambassador holds the record for giving the most tandem rides in a single event and still going on countless food and supply runs. Meg, keeping a track off all the specifics.
Numerous meetings with BLM and vendors. OI! And this is only what "I" see. Too much.

As far as having NABX as a Traction Kite Organization, I would have to disagree. NABX "North American Buggy Expo" is an event and should remain just that. I would hate to think that you all had to do MORE work.

I think that it would be beneficial if a seperate Organization was developed to "Organize" the thoughts, opinions and needs of it's members and communicate them to goverment agancies, other organizations and vendors.

The key to this is communication. What exactly are the needs of the group? What do vendors, goverment agencies and other organizations require of us? How do we agree on who should represent us? What exactly would they be responsible for? How would we collect this information?

Topic - Insurance:
Are you telling me that there are people who participate in a physical activity that don't carry personal health and life insurance? Oh brother.

In my opinion this all comes down to sellf-reponsibility. We are all responsible to provide a safe enviroment not only for ourselves but even more so for others. I understand that $h!t/Gusts happens. If it does, it's time to step up and take responsibility for your actions.

I know the reality is that most venues and governing agencies require us have insurance relieving them of financial responsibility in the event something happens. Again, if we reduce our chance of something happening and take responsibility if something does, claims against the insurance are pretty much a mute issue. In turn this reduces our chances of losing our policy.

As far as how to get insurance, maybe the AKA could help us in this regard. I do not hold them responsible to provide me insurance for what I do, it was simply a perk. But I feel they have had some experience in this matter that they could use to provide us assistance in obtaining a policy for ourselves.

Another thought is what if at the events we had participants sign a liability waiver. I am no lawyer, but a bit of release from liability for an individuals actions on the event itself couldn't hurt. Do we have a lawyer in the group that could figure out the best path of contractual law vs. state and federal law?

Now onto what I think of the topics Dooley was to bring up.

{1. What products, services, or information could be supplied by NABX to the traction (buggy?) community, that would enhance and grow our sport? Think products, promotions, events, discounts with retailers, gear, educational venues like clinics, training, safety certifications, an actual "buggy license" to help ease the minds of law enforcement types, etc.}

Products:
Commemerate your stay! Buy a shirt, or two or three or four. Feeling saucy? Buy a hat!

Sweat shirts would be nice. It does get a little chilly on the playa sometimes.

What other products should we have?
Bags? so we can carry our shotcars around easier
Mouse pads? If a buggy can scoot on the playa, why can't my mouse?
Stickers? Instant buggy pimping! Dooley needs a new one for his van.
Panties? Who can we get to model this product for us?
Boxers? I vote that we get Dean to model these for us
Back packs: Carry a full aresanal of kites out with you for that extra long run. never get stuck again.

What would enhance and grow our sport?:
US! Individually

This is somewhat of a double edged sword.
Think quality, not quanity.

I honestly don't want the "popular social opinion" lemmings poking their nose into what we do and dissecting it for the world.

But I would like to allow some quality people to enjoy the peace, fulfillment, exhileration and comradery I feel from kiting and being a member of this community.

Promotions:
See above ^

Events:
Always a good thing. I love being able to visit with the good people I don't get to see very often.

Discounts with retailers:
Ah! Another double edged sword.

Where is the line between being able to afford that spanking new kite you want and supporting the retailers that provide this service for us?

I can't imagine that there is much margin in selling kite equipment. These goods folks have bills to pay and stores to keep open. I leave this more to the retailers to offer as a gift. They know where their point between helping the group and making an honest buck is.

But don't get me wrong! If Target wants to give me a 90% discount on folding chairs, coolers and barbecues for being a good person, I'll take it. They have enough money.

Clinics:
Love em!
Always good.

Training:
Practice, Practice, practice

Safety Certifications:
More like certifiable is you are being safe.
"Duh, where do I put this shiny metal thing with the golf ball on top?"
There's your certification of being edjumicated.

An Actual Buggy License:
I have thought alot about this!

First, who is going to come up with the test and where do I take it?

Second, I already took the "Lollipop" test to get my motorcycle license. Don't ask me to do it on a buggy.

Third, why would it ease the mind of a law enforcement agent? It would be left entirely to the interpretation of the individual officer. To actually appease the "Man" we have to make it legal, which in turn would mean that we would be goverened by a state or federal agency. NEXT!

{2. What level of dues support would I (yeah, you!) be able to sustain, if I knew the money were used on my behalf to stage and support more events, products, and services? How much per year? How much per month?}

I'm just a poor boy, from a poor family! And I need more money to buy more kites!

I think $25-$35 for a year membership. $50 or so per event.

{Idea #3 & #4}
Way to big of a can of worms for me to handle here.

{5. The name, "NABX", by reference, is a buggy-centric event name. It's also the name of a large pesticide producer in the midwestern U.S., often emblazoned on silos in the fields. Should we change it? Is there a better idea for an organization name that would more truly represent traction sports generally?}

Brothers and Sisters Of the Desert - BSOD
Nope wait, that already is the infamous Blue Screen Of Death which Micro$oft has trademarked.

United Wind and Air Consortium - UWAC
U Wac, I Wac, We all Wac!

Honestly, You can call me whatever you want, just don't call me late for a shotcar race.

{6. Is Dean Jordan really who we all *think* he is? Or is he really a representative of an alien government seeking total domination of all mankind? (Yes, that's Chewbacca in the old grey VW that reeks of Bushmill's).}

OH BOY! Goodie!

1. Who "Really" knows Dean?
2. "Representative of and Alien Goverment" more like a Reject of a Alien Government exiled to us.
3. "seeking total domination of all mankind" Good luck pal! Start with Micro$oft and I'll be your best friend! with benefits
4. "Yes, that's Chewbacca in the old grey VW that reeks of Bushmill's" So Dooley if that's Chewbacca does that make you Hand "Riding" Solo or Princess Layaa?

{7. Can a bunch of disorganized, randy, sweaty, speed-seeking, Bushmill's-drinking, Shot-Car wheeling buggy bastards actually organize for their own protection, promotion, and solidarity, without ANYONE getting killed in the process?}

H E LL YEAH!

Ultimately the point here is to allow us to join together so we can enjoy the enviroment, activities and comradery we love.


As I always say" There is the family you are born into and there is the family you choose" and I choose you all. You are my family. (Even as Disfunctional as we all can be sometimes)

I Love You All!

I cannot Thank You all enough for all your Love, Compassion, Knowledge, Wisdom, Insight and Critisism. I would not have found balance in my life without you.

Cheers to you all!
Todd "Scooter"