Ok, for the really important stuff first. ;-) The black and red color rocks! The pictures so far haven't done it justice so I was smitten with the colors on the 15 when I saw it in person. Others felt the same way about the blue and I might as well if flying near water, so don't feel like the black and green kites are the only choice.

<entering kite geek mode>
I was lucky enough to get several hours each day on the new Phantom and feel it's only right to share with you guys what my experience was. I probably spent more time with the 9m than anyone else at nabx. I flew all 3 kites but didn't have significant wind while flying either the 15 or 18m.

The kite construction is much like other modern arcs so few surprises here. There are some very robust reinforcements on the spar pocket ends that take the brunt of abuse with land contact. The reinforcement fabric is shiny so it's different than anything I've seen before on an arc. I scuffed the corner at least twice and you can't see any evidence of it so this should hold off wear and tear on the impact points.

The kite has the familiar tip adjustment straps as well as the center strap adjustment. It also has the vpc with adjustments as well. I'll certainly explore the effects of various combinations of adjustments in time. We ran the vpc in the slot next to closest to the kite. Center strap was half tight and tips all loose.

The new Navigator bar is all grown up now. 4 equal length lines is much simpler IMHO. The bar grip and texture is just right. The safety runs through the CL and through the bar so no matter how many times you get your lines twisted, everything is back in place with a spin of the bar. The leash attaches at the top inside of the chicken loop so it isn't up around your hands and bar getting in the way. The safety line runs up beside the left top line and seems to be spliced into that line about 20 feet up. On deployment, the bar would slide right past the splice and flag the kite. Having lots of help around, I never landed the kite with the safety so this will have to be checked out in the future. My only issue with the bar is that sometimes it is difficult to adjust the trim with the clam cleat. Sometimes I just gave up making an adjustment. At times, I would be pulling hard enough on the trim adjuster trying to disengage it that I would pull slack in the center line. This should be an easy mod if it proves to remain sticky. But with 6-8 hours with the kite and new bar, I don't see anything else I'm likely to mess with.

This kite launches as easily as any arc I've flown. The only botched launch was my fault since I left the deflate zipper open. It's amazing how quickly it can deflate on launch with that zipper open. :embarrassed: Every other launch, the kite just curled up off the ground and sat there at the edge waiting for it's next command.

Even in varying wind conditions, this kite has a strong autozenith as long as its has enough wind to fly. It would usually ease over to 2:00 and not really move around much. I'm sure in stronger winds it would settle in closer to zenith.

On the first day I got to fly the kite (9m) the wind was very punchy and probably in the upper teens. I easily got over 50 mph in the buggy while being timid and non aggressive in attaining speed. With each punch of the wind the kite would slightly surge forward and the tips would quiver a bit, and being new with the kite, I was afraid there was an adjustment that needed to be made. Before we made much progress that day, the winds went to nuking with fierce dust storms making it not fun to fly anymore so we lived to fly another day.

The next morning we awoke to steady winds in the low to mid teens and I went out only having a drink of water for breakfast. Wow what a difference a day makes! Today the kite is smooth and locked in which tells me my concerns about the kite the day before were all about the wind and not about the kite. Knowing this, I would've had more confidence the day before. With my confidence rising, I was able to push the kite harder and while still only infrequently well powered, I started to get to know the kite. I was able to do 180 suicide jibes creating fast turns. This kite loves the power surge when completing a sj turn. When flying with geokite this second day, (very skilled pilot) even when we would both do sj turns the PII would seem to shoot forward with some advantage over the 8m Venom he was flying. Any other time while just cruising, the kites were usually very well matched with one kite or the other pulling away a bit sometimes. The kite is also very stable and predictable with upwind turns. Again, I was timid at first, but as I rode more and more, I could dive into technical turns with more confidence. The only thing holding me back was my unfamiliarity with the kite.

Saturday was another awesome day with the kite when I learned so much about it. I was cruising around by myself for awhile and came upon geokite and markite both flying arcs. geo was on a 9m Phantom I and Mark was flying a 10m Scorpion. Great kites (and pilots) to match up with. I was generally underpowered with the 9m and the other 2 kites would slowly pull away from me many times. When the wind would pick up, I could gain back the gap between us. If I was powered enough to do an sj turn, I would shoot out in front and in order to keep us together would back off a bit and then Mark and Geo would ease past me most runs. In retrospect, I should've kept the hammer down and let them slowly gain on me during the pass.

One interesting thing I noticed about the new kite was when Mark and Geo were running at the same speed in single file with each other, my fastest line of tack was about 5-7 degrees upwind of them. This translated into extreme upwind ability when the wind ramped up.

At the end of the day, I realized I could've easily handled a 12m the whole day and would've had plenty of power whenever I wanted it. Soon, I'll have my own and will be able to get to know the kites and sizes much better so I know which one to get out.

This is a fantastic kite and I'm really pleased the folks at PL went to the trouble to make it for us and take the time to make it right. Also, thanks to Angus, Flyjump, and Ripsessions for knowing how important it was to get these kites to nabx and making sure it happened.

on SAT, i went for a go on the P2 9m ...IN BB's bug! first time ever.

and yes i noticed too, my up wind points of sail were indeed steeper than geo/mark but not as powered. they could really zoom on a faster cross wind track. i did tighten the tips, so the unit was super zippy and trimmed in considerably.

since my buggy skills where growing minute by minute during the ride, which was WAY different than i had imagined, the seat really had me locked in and very rail like.

maybe my assessment lacks deep buggy pilot skill knowledge but i can say unit burned up wind as wind increased...could have been my apprehension to let run while trying to figure speed control at the same time, but thats what it yielded.

stoked on the buggy ride fo sho!

Bamp!

Nice review!

Thx beaver for the first true buggy review.

I'm just surprised more didn't want to try it out

Nice write up Bobby
I'm finally home just a couple of days ago after an extra 5 days site seeing following NABX so need to catch up on all the news and reviews.

Winds this year had a few days that were high and then times with very light to zero wind and not really as many days with the nice steady late day winds. There were a lot of new people at NABX this year and a good number interested in the Phantom2 performance but I think there were also people that weren't quite sure of the winds and surface and comfort levels so overall it was a lighter representation of arcs out there aside from a few regulars.

It would have been good to have a 6m to try out but we were lucky to have the mix of 9/15/18 to get dirty. As mentioned the build looks good especially with the extra scuff resistant material at the ends of the rods sleeves. I flew both the 9m and 18m but it was lighter winds or dropping off winds when I flew the 9m so I never had a ride with it pushed to max power - at the times when the winds were perfect I could see the 9m going back and forth on the far side of the lake as Bobby was having a good time with it.
I got to take the 18 out when it was a lighter wind eve and usually in lighter air I prefer a bigger open cell f.b. foil and favour arcs in the smaller sizes on the dry lake. That being said I was surprised by the performance of the 18. I still needed a couple of sines to get the power and speed building after a turn but then it would park and build up steady power and the wow could I ever take a higher angle upwind with it once it had the apparent wind. The older high AR arcs would twist off and helix a lot more when turning but the P2 holds it's shape better allowing a quicker turn when needed without loosing as much power. I had fun riding it.

The 9m we played with the VPC settings and wanted to try it with the bridle removed to see how much a difference there would be in the feel but we never did get around to it. Once we had tried a couple of adjustments it seemed to perform well in the buggy - steady for tracking without the quick tendency to swing upward at higher speeds that you would get on the Charger. Hard to compare for sure how it compares speed wise to the other models because the three of us chasing each other around had slightly different set ups but it was evident that the new P2 had good upwind performance holding a little more power at a few degrees higher upwind run. We weren't running at the top end of the range, probably more like max 70% of the power and speed range. Bobby did have better winds the one morning to run it to check the set up so his comments give a much better review.

I think that the buggiers vs landboarders or winter users will want to play with different set ups as we were setting it up to try and slow down turning after the first day when it was gusty higher winds. It's a good kite and riders will enjoy it - and the different colour combos do look good - the black and green combo got dusty very quickly on the dry lake so all kites were the nice playa beige in short time.

We had an awesome day on Saturday at the Buggy Boogie Thang at El Mirage Dry Lake in Southern Cal.

Geokite had his 6m Phantom there and had done a bridle mod to run it without the VPC on straight bridles. I was running mine with the VPC intact. Geo was having issues with his kite having a serious "jellyfish" motion as if the tips were flapping back and forth like it was trying to fly like a bird or um pulse like a jellyfish. Mine was doing it a little with all straps loose and the VPC in the factory setting of second closest to the kite. I ran with factory settings at first for a baseline then adjusted the vpc one knot closer to the kite and now mine was jellyfishing really bad. Quick adjustment to the third knot away from the kite which is supposed to be more power and a more direct feel to the kite and the kite became really smooth and fast. This kite is very fast to turn and it can move around a bit when running at speed, but if it gets going in the wrong direction, a quick tug at the bar puts it right back in line. I never feared the kite was going to get behind me, maybe because it runs so far forward in the wind window.

I was nervous to try the high speed downwind turns (What I had been calling a Suicide jibe but now not sure) in these higher winds with such a small kite but after seeing Geo do several I went for it. Never botched one and did dozens over the course of the day. This kite rockets out of the turn like crazy. It finds itself behind in the turn as you complete the turn with the buggy and then it races forward in the window to catch up generating lots of power with that speed.

I had 4 runs over 50 mph with a best during a stronger burst of wind that was 53.7 mph. I could've run the 9m almost the whole day I think but as luck would have it, it's due to arrive tomorrow. Even in the strongest winds we had, I never felt overpowered or out of control with the 6m. It can stand a LOT more wind before it reaches it's limit. I'll keep tweaking things till I really have this kite figured out. Next will be one more knot away from the kite on VPC, then I'll mess around with internal straps. I'll make similar vpc adjustments on my 9 and 12 to start with as well.

sounds great ! any videos ?

There might be video of the most extreme jelly fishing ever seen in a kite. Mark might have it.

I seem to remember quite vividly reading on the peter lynn site that the phantom2 could be tuned for park and ride with a direct (no pully) bridle. But I can't find mention of it anymore. Any help?

The ability to fly this kite park-and-ride style was one of the reasons I got it, but after this weekend it doesn't appear that is possible. Pulleys amplify the turning, which is not needed nor wanted in a park and ride kite. Park and ride flying was THE feature of the original phantom that we all love in the buggy. I spent all of Saturday trying to get rid of the jelly fishing, but with no luck. Line length, contrary to what I though, had no effect. This was violent jelly fishing, so much so I though the kite was going to rip or invert.

I've emailed VO about bridle lengths for a no-pulley bridle, but got no reply.

Thanks for any help!

Quote:

Originally posted by herc sounds great ! any videos ?

I had my gopro with me but don't have a camera mount (yet) on my skate helmet. Temps near 100 kept me out of the full face helmet that has a mount. I was afraid to put the mount on at the event because it is difficult to eliminate the dust while you stick it on. Video would've been really great since there were some high speeds while negotiating through gaps in bushes. The speed would've been very clear in video. I'll be better prepared next time as I feel a sort of obligation to share the wonder of riding at places that are so awesome.

Geo let's keep our revelations and knowledge base flowing on this thread as we learn what makes these kites tick. While I also found a lack of park and ride stability, I found that any movement the kite had was easily controlled and also easy to detect through the bar. While I'm a bit on edge while flying these kites, I don't fear the kite getting headed behind me without me knowing and being able to get it back on track. The manual corrected me in that moving the vpc away from the kite increases power and add bar pressure. I'll try the farthest knot to see if it's even better than the third position. Oh, I found a manual in a hidden zipped compartment on the kite bag. It has stickers and a double ring for a suicide leash attachment too. But no Phantom tshirt! :ticking::puzzled:

ive got a quiver coming my way in the next few weeks so ill add to this review if i can...

Thanks Carl! Your observations given all your experience will move things along nicely.

Good details, Bobby and Steve. Keep it coming.

Philip

I'm very surprised to hear the small kite running on direct attachments vs the bridle produced such dramatically bad results. I wonder if the tendency to flap is similar the tip clapping reported on some Chargers. The loss of lift on the slightly thinner wingtips was explored with the addition of the adjuster on the wingtip middle braid - the adjustment bunching the last few cells creating an increased profile made for a much more stable kite on some accounts. I've never quite wrapped my head around the cause of the pulsing or jellyfishing in some arcs but generally happens in higher gusty winds and on some models more than others.
If it's tips flapping that could be on the borderline of that lift issue where it slightly looses lift to flex in but regains it within a fraction of a second to open up?
I've also wondered whether it was a combination of line and material properties that were getting stretch and some recoil but I think that's less likely. I've flown small foils that shudder and pulse and it's a rhythm that builds up the faster the kite goes - usually on a small foil of low quality. Sometimes a bridle adjustment reduces it but overall in those kites I think it's the shape. Having the small Phantoms producing the similar effect is definitely something that needs exploring in the set up to see if we can minimize and hopefully nullify that effect. I wonder if adding tip adjusters mid braid would tame it?

This wasn't the tip clap that I'm familiar with on some Chargers. This was a rythmic undulation like the tips were "flapping their wings". It would get worse especially under heavy load holding my line across the wind. changing bar position wouldn't change it, only lessening the load on the kite. I'm happy so far that it went away with the change in the vpc setting with no other negative side effect.

In my testing with the direct bridle (no pulley), I tried all different strap configs: all loose, all tight, shoulder tight middle loose, shoulder loose middle tight. Basically the best config to minimize (but not elliminate) the jelly-fishing was all straps loose.

And from my original direct bridle lengths, the only way to minimize the jelly-fishing was to pull the top lines in closer (losing lots of potential low end pull). I knew this wasn't right because Bob's P2, when the bar was pulled all the way in at speed, backed the kite in the window. My config with minimum jelly-fishing didn't come close to backing the kite in the window.

I didn't bring the original bridle (who would have thought a direct bridle wouldn't work or that I couldn't fix it on the fly?), so the possibility remains that I just got a bad kite.

Not sure what I'm wishing for at this point, from what we know.

Steve I think you can relax about differences in kites since mine did really bad with the close vpc setting and improved as I moved it out. I would've expected the vpc to only be an improvement in turning speed and bar pressure, not part of the basic design that the kite doesn't fly right without.

As far as wishes go, I'm not sure this kite is going to be the park and ride cruiser that the original is, so that might be a good target. It would be nice with all the possible adjustments, that the kite could be Jekyll and Hyde at the wish of the pilot. I'm going to ping Feyd and get his input on this.

maybe you had bad luck and had exactly a special wind speed where you had hit the "resonance frequency" of the "kite - line" system ?

similiar to that nightmare tacoma bridge collapse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw

just an idea.. how does the 6 sqm phantom2 behaves in low(er) winds?

very interesting about the jellyfishing, not sure of the exact term for whats happening.

tips are pulsing in and out . or forward pitching fornt to back of the whole kite, or is the top flattening out and popping back to shape(thats what i thought jellyfishing was).

anyway, just may thoughts on going without the bridle, the profile balance point at the tip is gonna close to the pulley attachment, changing that FORWARD to the front tip attachment may require extreme shortening the back line attachment point compensate for point of balance on the profile. this could a maddening amount of kite pigtail knots to find the sweet spot . AND most of the depower would be lost to bar pressure which may be heavy and constant to operate.

its a guess , but i know it could be done, it just the range of operation maybe altered so to a narrow windrange. theres gonna be some profile distortion that an heavily weighted TE that may be incompatible with the design. like profile lost nearer the tips and bugled at the top making strange wobble and tip undulations.

the darty speed i believe would best be controlled, and confined, by BAR size and re-balancing with the REAR adjustments on the bridle.

really need a visual of the action to asses whats going on. just some thoughts ...but man i want try it NOW just to KNOW!

Any time I've seen a previous arc "jellyfish" it was either a reaction to a hard gust punching it or a sudden drop in wind. With a drop, the kite would flatten its back with tips flaring a bit then back to normal shape. With a gust, the kite would bring the tips closer together adding more arch to the back, then ease back into normal shape.

Our kites (mine with vpc intact) were doing this same motion but twice per second maybe. It was violent enough to make us think an invert was imminent or that it would actually damage the kite.

Geo actually hypothesized about resonant frequency bothering it but my lines were shorter and my kite did it too on the tight vpc settings. I'm sure I won't ever go there on the vpc again on the 6m, but will try all the settings on the 9 and 12. 9 arrived yesterday!

The same behavior was exhibited over a range of wind, from about 15mph to 25mph or so.

The jelly fishing, as phree described it, is "forward pitching fornt to back of the whole kite". So the leading edge, at one point during the motion is being stretched with the tips far back. At least that's how it looked from my perspective in the buggy.

Got some shorter lines (thanks Dino!), and put the original bridle back on. I doubt the behavior could be duplicated with static flying, so I'll have to wait until the next day at Elmers. Might meet up with Roadkyllphil on the 22nd out there.

I've emailed VO three times now, no response. Disappointing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqjFwCmbxI0

this is jellyfishing .... around 1:40-1:50 at least what i consider it to be.

common arc recoil after acceleration, top flattens tips flare. not sure this is what you experienced.

the front to back wobble, i have seen it only with a phantom on the water. with decent air still producing power and sailing, a decrease in speed is only thing that stopped it. rare and strange indeed. one occurrence.

yes just like that except rhythmically, maybe twice a second give or take. Only happened at speed and well powered. Drop the speed or if the wind backed off and it goes away. Couldn't affect it with bar position.

I got to fly Angus' 9m Phantom II at JIBE (thanks again, Angus!) and really liked it. It was a brief session but I found that kite turned much faster than a Phantom but was much smoother in flight than my Scorpions. It didn't have the grunt but the top speed was good. I saw no surging behavior at all.

For the wind and surface we had top speed that day was probably 30 MPH on the broad reach. I was flying conservatively and probably hit only mid-20s. Did your jellyfishing occur at these speeds? Or did you have to go faster?

Dean also had a go on the P2 9m and was very pleased. I'm sure he didn't experience any problems or he would have mentioned them. He probably went faster than I did too.

Philip

This was happening between 35 and 40 for me. After I adjusted the Vpc, I had multiple runs over 50. I see this kite going over 70 easy.

35 to 45 for me.

When you guys are connecting it directly, how exactly are you doing it? I'm assuming pigtails of some flavor. What lengths are you using?

I haven't had any of the issues with the Ph2 that you've described. I run it full loose and on various knot settings, full VPC and no issues after a whole winter on them. When I flew the 12m w/o the VPC it flew awesome.

Took and educated guess at the pigtail lengths.

I'll try vpc and straight bridles on each of mine to see what works best. Lots of testing, but I want to make the most of them.

Geokite did just that when he hooked his up straight. He had satisfactory slack in his back lines so he got it close I think.

The difference between the top pigtail and the bottom was 30cm

Hey All,

Were yous using the Nav bar with the Y-line? I noticed some jelly fishing with my CH-10 on the nav bar that I do not see when I use a standard bar. In gusts, and changes in speed or bar, the force on the front lines tends to pull the front tips together, while the rear line tension is more direct. The difference is that the front lines have more inward/outward pull than the back lines and therefore they are out of harmony. This happens mostly at the higher range when I have the kite depowered a bit. Oh, and it is with fixed bridles.

I was using a new Nav bar that has equal length lines. Geo was using a non PL bar with longer equal length lines.