What makes a kite good at moving upwind?

I've been told that beamers aren't good at moving upwind, and from my recent trip to Jekyll, I can attest to struggling on an upwind tack with my 3m beamer. I know certain kites are good at moving upwind (ie. viper s, reactor, toxic to name a few). But, what is it about those kites that makes them good at moving upwind?

Is it Aspect Ratio, or wing shape, or some other aspect that I'm unaware of? I really want to know more what it is that makes them good at it as opposed to which kites are good at it.

Help a brother out :puzzled:

It's mostly about how far forward in the window the kite will run... Race Kites go farther to the edge than beginner kites. Your beamer will go upwind but not as far as a race type kite.

You also need to gain some speed and then point upwind as far as you can without slowing too much. Just a balancing act.

Ok, but what about the kite will make it move that far forward in the window.

If I'm looking at a kite's specs. (AR, #of cells, shape, material, etc.) what is it that makes the kite do what it has to do to move upwind more easily, or "farther forward in the window?"

I understand that that is what a good upwind kite will do, but what is it about the kite that makes it do that?:dunno:

Not an expert here, but it is my understanding the aspect ratio is the primary factor.

AR is an important factor for sure, but another major point that you won't find on any spec is it's Angle Of Attack. Some do have adj in the bridling to change this to your desire of flying. As in most things, the more you gain in one area, you lose in another. In this case, generally when you change the AoA for it to fly further to the edge, you also give up some stability, much in the same way as you do with AR.

"A high aspect ratio [kiteboarding] kite will fly far into the wind so the effective "edge of the window" is further upwind. This makes it easier to drive yourself upwind without having to edge so much with the board, typically this is more desirable with lighter pilots who have to work harder to edge the board.."

Worth reading:

• Understanding Aspect Ratio to Select the Proper Kiteboarding Kite
  
  
• The upwind turn

ATB,
Sam

So it has more to do with AoA then, eh.

Here's why I ask:...

I was under the assumption that it primarily had to do with AR. I was looking at the Ozone website about the Octane, which claims it to be a introductory buggy/ ATB engine. The site did not list the kite's specs. so I emailed Ozone to ask about the kites AR as well as upwind performance.

In answering my query, the Ozone rep said it had good upwind performance, and an AR of 3.5,.... I think "wait a minute, I know from experience that my Beamer (AR of 3.6) has not-so-good upwind performance,... so is this guy just blowing smoke up my nether regions or what,... all marketing or some truth?..." hence this thread.

That being said, since AoA is not typically listed under kite specs., is it reasonable to take the manufacturers word for truth. In other words, if they say it has good upwind performance do I trust them in that. in other words, that the kite has a good upwind AoA and its not listed as such?

Has anyone tried the Ozone Octane that can attest to its upwind capabilities?... is it comparable to a Viper s or Toxic, or what?

Mostly just curious.

ps. Thanks Sam for the links, I'll check those out when I can.

can't answer about the Octane,

but to be fair, I would think most rep's are probably in the mindset of good vs excellent when comparing characteristics of kites (same with all the advertising about units), rather than merely okay vs good. Merely okay doesn't sound very good, who would buy it?

My thoughts (without looking at Sam's always awesome examples from which he uses voodoo black magic to comb the net to always come up with a perfect answer or solution. )

1) Aspect ratio will have great affect because longer and narrow will have less drag than shorter and wider.

2) AoA plays a huge part because as you move the kite closer to the edge you need a slightly deeper attack to catch the right amount of wind to generate appropriate power. Or something to that degree. Basically if your kite isn't trimmed correctly your kite won't be as effective once it gets to the edge of the window.

3) Pilot abilities in kite position and board edging. I had my 12 speed 2 out and couldn't ride upwind at all, my buddy tried the kite and was screaming upwind. Issue was first I wasn't maintaining a proper position in the sky. The kite was causing more side pull, than forward motion. I raised it higher in the window and it was corrected; which also allowed me to hold a better stance for edge control. Surface conditions often change how your edge ability is.

4) Wind speed: if you have too little wind the kite might fly fast to the edge, but it will lose much power to generate pull. Too much wind and it could be causing you to drag downwind no matter what you do.

Maybe not the best description out there, but I see it as more than one variable. If you have one out then it changes how everything else is effective. Sorry if any of this is wrong as I am definitely no expert.

I wonder ... does high AR make a higher AoA possible?

I totally got distracted by Jim's beat about AoA and overlooked what was being said about AR,... So what you guys are saying is that AR is very important to upwind capability. More so than AoA?... (we are talking FB here)

So it seems likely (leaving AoA out of the picture) that a kite with an AR closer to 4.0 would be more efficient in the bug on an upwind tack than a kite with say a 3.5 AR?

How much difference really makes a difference? Will a kite with an AR of 3.6 be noticeably different than a kite with an AR of 3.8?

At what point do you really start to loose stability?

From what I gather about the octane if I don't have it confused with another kite is it is almost identical to the flows. Color change aside the description is identical to the flow.

Don't forget drag. The Ozone Razors had a low AR of 3.2 if I remember correctly but a reduced number of open cells. This made it stable while giving it the ability to cut through the air more efficiently. In compassion the old Flexi Blade with an AR of 5.5 did less well upwind but great for static jumping.

I wouldn't judge a kite on AR alone.

IF I add a AOA kit to a Beamer and adjust accordingly will it then have better up wind ability?

Will changing the AOA on a Beamer give it more upwind ability? I'm thinking that would be a definite MAYBE. As long as it still had enough pull left in it for the load its draging and as long as its not already optimized for flying forward in the window, (you could be setting it up for overfly and flop). Interesting topic, lots of variables involved.

you could put a AAA KIT on it. It would be just like my Flexi rage w/AAA. You could make it sit further out on the edge and fly faster thru the window. But, you lost some stability out on the edge. Or, you could go the other way ,and put more low end grunt in it.

Another variable I've noticed is the wind speed relative to the kite's wind range. Your upwind ability will increase as you get into the higher end of the kites wind range. Low wind will eliminate more and more of your upwind ability.

Quote:

Originally posted by pyro22487 From what I gather about the octane if I don't have it confused with another kite is it is almost identical to the flows. Color change aside the description is identical to the flow.

Is the flow a good upwind kite?

Quote:

Originally posted by RedSky Don't forget drag. The Ozone Razors had a low AR of 3.2 if I remember correctly but a reduced number of open cells. This made it stable while giving it the ability to cut through the air more efficiently. In compassion the old Flexi Blade with an AR of 5.5 did less well upwind but great for static jumping.

Given that, since octane has a limited number of open cells, is it likely that this, combined with a possibly favorable AoA, makes it a good upwind kite as the rep said? An AR of 3.5 just seems comparably low to others that claim a good upwind ability.

I'm considering a 4m for the buggy quiver, and want a Viper S, but it may be that by the time I can afford one, they will be all gone, so I'm considering alternatives,... Still very stable, but good upwind ability... I'm not looking to go fast,... just to go upwind easier than with the beamer,... and I don't care to get into altering the beamer's AoA,... seems more trouble than its worth.

I have the 2.5 and 3.5 Flexi blurrs with the AoAs ajusted all the way up for speed and fly them at the top of the range with exellent up wind performance. But like Beamer Bob said it's better to fly in more wind than less. I had a Flow and got rid of it after a sesh or two at Ivananpah. It was like draging a dead cat around the sky.

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob Another variable I've noticed is the wind speed relative to the kite's wind range. Your upwind ability will increase as you get into the higher end of the kites wind range. Low wind will eliminate more and more of your upwind ability.

^^^ THIS ^^^

Most modern kites regardless of design will go up wind effectively, of course performance will vary based on design. In your case, without more specifics, it would appear that you had too small a kite in too little wind. If the power, from the kite, on a reach is not stressing you then going upwind will be a difficult prospect.

Learning to handle big power from a kite in higher winds is key to better upwind performance. It can also be dangerous and should not be taken on lightly. Planning and focus are needed to understand when you are in trouble or not. Unfortunately, that is a much longer discussion and talk can only go so far to helping you figure it out on your own.

It's a balance between high ar and low aoa to get the most up wind at the risk of inversion . Also low aoa equals less power, more aoa equals more power, sitting further back in the window. Factory settings in the middle seem to work best.

Eh? I think you got that back-to-front G ...

I have a Flexi AOA kit that I never used. If somebody wants it $10 + shipping.

I bought it for my 9m Blade but the bridle doesn't cascade properly for a simple addition.

Does the Beamers cascade lean to easy instal of an AOA kit ? A,B,C all easily seperated.

Not real bad the method is better. I have only flown the beamer and it was a Beamer III I hated it. sorry to the beamer guys out there. IT pulled and pulled but had almost no speed. ANd upwind was awful compared to my Flow.

Quote:

Originally posted by pyro22487 Not real bad the method is better. I have only flown the beamer and it was a Beamer III I hated it. sorry to the beamer guys out there. IT pulled and pulled but had almost no speed. ANd upwind was awful compared to my Flow.

To be fair, that's a 5-6 year old design on the Beamer III. That was my first kite I bought in spring 07.

Bladerunner u2u,I would like your AAA kit to experiment with my Beamer . thanks

High aspect ratio kites will have better upwind performance. the angle of attack does come into play here somewhat but I don't think it plays as big of a role as aspect ratio. You want the kite to fly farther to the edge of the window. Race kites are best for beaches in my opinion because of the good upwind performance. Mid aspect ratio kites are nice and stable, easy to fly, but they wont get you going as fast or have as good upwind performance.

pilot skill is a big factor. A good pilot will take any kite upwind farther than a newbie....practice and get the feel. there is a balance between speed and upwind, find it!

Race kites will go upwind better

Do any of you dealers who sell Ozone products have any experience with the octane?

My intent here is to understand what will make a good upwind buggy engine, and it seems that AR is primarily the determining factor with a little input from AoA.

So I'm noticing that kites that I have come to know to have a good upwind ability have an AR around 4.0:

PL viper S AR=3.8
PL core AR=3.75
PL reactor AR=4.2 to 4.5 dependent on size
HQ toxic AR=4.5

From what you guys say, the higher AR gets, the more you lose stability. Anyone know at what point do you lose stability? I would love a kite that is a good stable buggy engine. I'm a fan of "ease of use."

I still would love a Viper S, but knowing their limited future, I have looked at the Octane. The AR difference between the Viper S and the Octane is 0.3; is this substantially different? Is it possible that the reduced drag from the closed cells of the Octane makes up for what it lacks in AR?

Any kite dealers willing to allow me an Octane Demo via mail?

If the octane is anything like the flow or the samurai it will be a very nice kite, but it is probably not what you are looking for in terms of good upwind performance, it will be very stable flying. However, as the aspect ratio gets higher, the ease of use will go down. High aspect kites are a little more temperamental. The PL reactor is what I would recommend, they seem to be a good "all around" buggy engine.
Dieter makes a good point, pilot skill goes a long way when it comes to going upwind (or anything for that matter)