What do you think?

When buying used I think of RTF as kite bar and lines + bag..... no accessories ... like pump or leash .....or patch kit ..... unless is stated in listing ....

If ya assume RTF includes leash, shouldn't you assume it includes harness & board as well?

The only new kite I ever bought didn't have a leash or a pump.

I've had people SERIOUSLY bust my balls when I asked if they included lines(they did not specify).

You always gotta ask. Some people assume RTF means "exactly as I purchased it from the factory" and some people assume RTF means "i rigged up some BS bar for ya, no idea if it will work, have fun".

RTF
Ready To Fly

HF
Have Fun
Ruudje

IMO, kite, bar, lines, and safety leash for depowers, UNLESS stated by the seller.

However, after just saying that. Most of us who fly depower already more then enough leashes.

Kite, bar / handles, lines (and bag). I don't view the leash as part of the package, even if its required for the safety to work properly. If you want to include it, fine, but I wouldn't expect it as some kites that require or benefit from a leash don't come with them from the factory.

You can pull it out of shipping box and use it on board, buggy or what-not.


For FB set up: unless stated...no kite killers, groundstake is what I would expect. Bag maybe. Tell or ask .Just kite, handles( or bar) and flying line makes a RTF. Seller may include fuller package and state items...but I would not expect those other items. I may ask.

.

Depower: same as FB: kite, flyline and complete depower bar . If new user- the Idea a harness will be needed. FB folks don't have to have a harness...but depower flyers do.Really part of RTF actually by above definition...but one just assumes depower buyer knows this(or has a harness)...but not to that one in ten noob maybe.

LEI kites... regarding pump..... maybe should be included for RTF. Tough call. If knowingly selling to first time owner w/ no other kites(and thus no pump) should be noted by seller. Well...should be stated regardless

Buyer should alway ask EXACTLY what they're getting. Seller should do same. Tell all and ask all.

RTF is an abbreviation that gives ballpark idea about sale. For any transaction involving lots of cash, nothing about details should be abbreviated after RTF 'introduction' label.

Why not be clear and detail everything?

RTF is at the very least , kite , bar/handles , lines as opposed to KO which is kite only. Anything in addition to RTF (leash, pump, bag ,harness) would be nice but you better ask. GLWT HF (good luck with that ,have fun)

"Kite RTF" I always assumed to be kite-kite bag-bar-lines... leashes, manuals, stickers etc were outside of that, as they usually get buggered up and lost or used along the way.

I think including harnesses in RTF is going a bit far! Especially for private sales and considering how different people's sizes are.

Pumps... should be mentioned, if only so someone can say "no thanks, save on the shipping".

Exact specifications though is a good idea... mmm...

I found out the hard way that the leash that came with the kite is not considered part of the RTF package ?

I have bought 2 harnesses and neither came with a leash? It has come with new bar only purchases. I think the bar and leash are all part of the same safety system?

I like each kite to have it's own leash ( but don't have them all now ) . This way if I loan my gear I am safe.

When I sell RTF it means Ready to Fly .... safely ? With a leash.

I think my lesson was that not everybody sees it that way. Best to specify what you expect to recieve and then get pictures ahead.

I guess I missed something, what does the R stand for? The T? And the F?
Ready To Fly, right? Which means pull it out of the bag and fly.
PKD sold the Buster, and the Brooza, as RTF. (The Century and Combat is still sold, K/O.) Kite, lines and handles are all connected and all you had to do was pull the kite out and unwind the lines and give it a shake, off you go. With the New Buster Soulfly, they put the kite in the bag with a set of handles, lines, KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, ground stakes, sand bags, manual, stickers, etc and you put it together and called it RTF. Hey, Thats not Ready To Fly. So the new Buster Soulfly Pro will have all the parts connected and RTF. OOOPS:shocked2:

Bwa-hahaha bigkid - you want them to throw in some wind for you too? :D I like making a pile of new parts, then slowly putting them together... doesn't happen often

Seems "leash included" is a bit of a crap-shoot. I will specifically specify what's going in the box from now on

Read The Fine-Print?

I've been disappointed in the past receiving leashless things. Now I've got a bunch of gear swapped over to the Megatron so leashes aren't as critical to me.

I make sure I specify what's included as opposed to saying RTF. Kite, bar, lines, bag, leash etc.

Kite, Bar, Lines, Bag. Leash is not something I expect.

Kite, bar, lines, and a bag.

Leash, if it came with the kite, I think should be included. I realize that to most others, though it doesn't mean that.

If you include:

• decent (not stock) photos of the gear
  
• an enumerated text list of whats included
  
• description of condition of each of the items

it would seem that a lot of ambiguity and potential for animosity would be left at the door.

There's a lot of difference between a not including a sticker package and a leash or a pump. It might be fine if the buyer already had a depower or LEI, but not if it's their first.

If the kite bought new, included a leash or pump, it's wrong to expect the buyer to assume it's not going to be included during a resale.

In either case, posting a clear and concise sale ad isn't rocket science and doesn't seem like an unreasonable burden for the seller.

If you're worried about being disappointed, just ask.

ATB,
Sam

but what does R T F stand for? right turn fhead? right through forever? ready to fight? or ready to ??

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid but what does R T F stand for? right turn fhead? right through forever? ready to fight? or ready to ??

Ready-To-Fly.... but it's a moot point.

If a manufacturer sold a new kite listing it only as "RTF" without details, that would be hunted with pitchforks and torches.

So why not have the same expectations for re-stale?

ATB,
Sam

I dabble in RC heli's a bit more than I should, and RTF is a bit different here.
It means the heli, plane, car, truck, what ever is only lacking fuel. It is in need of nothing more than to be taken out of the box and fueled and off you go.(but you do have to pair the transmitter)
If it says "complete", then you have to assemble all the parts. Now you are RTF.

I have to admit when I buy a kite, I ask if it is RTF and then proceed to ask more questions until I find out what it doesn't have and then remark that RTF is ready to fly. I sell kites with the list of ingredients to eliminate the guess work, but they still ask.

I do know that the 1st time this happened to me I was totally bummed out to find the leash that I knew came with the kite wasn't their. It really brought a cloud over the whole purchase. I was then stuck selling a kite and 1 leash short. I had to buy one so I could sell guilt free.

Like I mentioned if I sell a kite I make sure the safety is 100% functional so the buyer truly is " Ready To Fly " . AND crash!

Kites without leash should be labelled NS - NO SAFETY !

I know I see the world different but wonder why anybody would think the leash isn't a part of the bar / bar safety system it came with? Why wouldn't it stay with the bar it came with?

With this logic RTF doesn't include a bag? I can see no bag , you don't NEED it to fly but a kite without a leash is a weapon! I would have much prefered if the kites I bought that didn't come with a leash but did include a bag had a leash and no bag!

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner I know I see the world different but wonder why anybody would think the leash isn't a part of the bar / bar safety system it came with? Why wouldn't it stay with the bar it came with?

If it came with a leash, I think you have a point, but not all kites come with leashes (even if they need them for a fifth line safety) and therefore, if one is selling a kite that didn't come with a leash, I don't think they should feel the need to throw the leash in (even if required to fly it safely).

How many PL kites are sold kite only? I would say the majority of the ones on this site. All PLs need a bar and lines to be flown but rare is the case you see those come complete and they get bought up fast enough.

If the kite is accurately described and the buyer doesn't like the terms, let them walk away or negotitate. Used cars don't come with a full tank of gas and new tires and brakes but you need all that to drive it. A kite can be flown without a leash so I would say its RTF, it just may not be as "complete" a package as one would hope.

I am talking bars and you are talking kites. PL bars come with a leash and so do every other bar that requires one for it's safety when new.

I guess I am lost on why that leash wouldn't stay with that bar ?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner I am talking bars and you are talking kites. I guess I am lost on why that leash wouldn't stay with that bar ?

I am talking RTF and using a bar as an example. If a kite needs a bar to be flown and the majority of PL fliers seem to keep one bar and rotate it between their kites (assume that's what they do since they never seem to sell their kites with a bar), then why can't one do that with a leash?

Gins require a leash to operate their fifth line safety and come RTF yet none of their 5th line enabled kites come with leashes.

Ozones can benefit from a leash but don't (or at least didn't) originally come with leashes.

I think the same can be said for HQ but don't know for sure.

I keep my leash on my harness at all times (when kiting or storing) so its easy for me to switch from kite to kite and not worry / wonder if the kite I'm pulling out has a leash on its bar. That's just what works for me.

Whenever buying I think the more questions asked and details / pics provided the better as we can clearly see that something as simple as RTF obviously is not as simple and clear as it seems. RTF means different things to different people based on their practices and their current inventory of gear and how their kites were delivered to them.

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc Ozones can benefit from a leash but don't (or at least didn't) originally come with leashes.

Pretty sure the last two Ozone depowers I bought came with leashes.

ATB,
Sam

Quote:

Originally posted by indigo_wolf Quote: Originally posted by B-Roc Ozones can benefit from a leash but don't (or at least didn't) originally come with leashes. Pretty sure the last two Ozone depowers I bought came with leashes. ATB, Sam

Don't doubt it. I haven't bought an ozone in a long time but the early models didn't come with them and truth be told, they can be messy on a top hat to rear line safety system but helpful if the kite gets away from you. So would it be considered RTF if it didn't come with a leash and was sold without a leash but you, as a buyer, would prefer that extra, not originally included, safety leash? In my mind it would. Heck, original ozone kites didn't come with a donkey dick on their chicken loop. That is arguably more important than a safety leash if the kite utilizes a top hat safety. Should those be sold as RTF only if the seperate donkey dick that you afixed to your spreader bar is included?

The point is I think it really depends on what each buyer recieved and considers to be "included" in the stock package that they resell. RTF to me means "this is what came with the kite" and not "this is everything that I added to the package to bring the kite and or its safety system up to my (or in the case of a sale "the buyers") preferred standards.

I don't think anyone here is out to screw anyone but caveat emptor should always be the rule when buying used and unseen. One should neither assume that leashes, for example, come with all kites or that they'll be included in the sale of every used depower - much like killers aren't included in the sale of every FB.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner I am talking bars and you are talking kites. PL bars come with a leash and so do every other bar that requires one for it's safety when new. I guess I am lost on why that leash wouldn't stay with that bar ?

My guess is they get a whole lot more abuse and look ratty sooner. There'd be no point in including my Cabrinha leash when/if I sell the XB16 - it's trashed. But I simply don't have any other Cab leashes that I can spare...

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf Quote: Originally posted by B-Roc Ozones can benefit from a leash but don't (or at least didn't) originally come with leashes. Pretty sure the last two Ozone depowers I bought came with leashes. ATB, Sam Don't doubt it. I haven't bought an ozone in a long time but the early models didn't come with them and truth be told, they can be messy on a top hat to rear line safety system but helpful if the kite gets away from you. So would it be considered RTF if it didn't come with a leash and was sold without a leash but you, as a buyer, would prefer that extra, not originally included, safety leash? In my mind it would. Heck, original ozone kites didn't come with a donkey dick on their chicken loop. That is arguably more important than a safety leash if the kite utilizes a top hat safety. Should those be sold as RTF only if the seperate donkey dick that you afixed to your spreader bar is included? The point is I think it really depends on what each buyer recieved and considers to be "included" in the stock package that they resell. RTF to me means "this is what came with the kite" and not "this is everything that I added to the package to bring the kite and or its safety system up to my (or in the case of a sale "the buyers") preferred standards. I don't think anyone here is out to screw anyone but caveat emptor should always be the rule when buying used and unseen. One should neither assume that leashes, for example, come with all kites or that they'll be included in the sale of every used depower - much like killers aren't included in the sale of every FB.

The point of my original post was that I think it would be better to get away from the whole RTF "nomenclature" and just list what you are including with the sale. The more detail the better.

ATB,
Sam

little late to the post....I assume no leash.
I know leashes come with new kites, but i almost consider the leash a part of the harness.
haven't bought tons of kites, but the 4 I've bought didn't come with one. I've also sold 2 without a leash. I assumed the first one did, asked the seller why when it didn't come and then he sent me one after.

As a general rule I sell my kites RTF with what they came with from the factory. If I have a bar and have to buy a leash to go with it I will not include that lease with the sale. But if the bar came with a leash from the factory then I will sell it with the leash usually unless the leash is junk then I let the buyre know no leash is included. Most buyers have thier own leashes so its never been a problem.

I would not consider a harness as part of a RTF package.

And I like the "RTF". Maybe there should be levels of RTF. RTF=kite, bar and lines. RTF2=kite, bar and lines AND LEASH. RTF3=Kite,bar, lines, leash AND HARNESS. RTF4= Kite, Bar, Leash, Harness and SKIS (or buggy or whatever blows your skirt up)

But that would be too complex. How about "for sale, powerkite RTF4,KBLHS $3999" Ha super simple.