Looking into getting a new snowkite. The area I live in is northern Indiana/ Lower Michigan. The type of snow we get is mainly lake effect light powder. Snow here is very sporadic. We can go weeks without any snow or will get 12 inches + of powder dump in one night. In recent years, snow has not been sticking around for long and melts quickly. So mainly I would be snowkiting in fresh somewhat deep light powder or melting snow. Wind speeds vary. I mainly will be snowkiting on empty soccer and corn fields or frozen lakes.

I am an intermediate snowkiter but will also be looking to use this kite to get some beginner friends into the sport. I am a very skilled snowboarder.

My main question is what type and size of Kite should I get so that I can maximize the conditions and get into doing some lift for tricks and getting good speed?

I have been looking at some depower HQ's and Peter Lynn's sizes varying from 4m to 7.5m. Would a 4m be able to handle rather deep fresh powder and would a 7.5 be too much to handle for an beginner/intermediate snowkiter?

Thank you for any advice you have. I am the only person I know in this area who does the sport so I can't really ask anyone around here.

Ok
So first to understand you... You get snow and wind... Then it melts fast , so you need a quick to set up kite.?
You also want a kite that can perhaps be used to help teach friends.... Who are beginners.
And re: your choice in size/ type of kite.... 4-7.5 m

I might say don't try to get one kite for you and your friends, just get one good kite for you and your needs.
In heavy snow or deep snow 12 inches or more... More kite is better. So say you would go out on frozen Icy crust with a 7.5 m kite..... Then it dumps?! You'd be underpowered on that 7.5 and be wishing you had a 10m.

With all the lessons I have taught, most students that buy a kite from/through me are getting a 2.5 - 3.5m kite ( a trainer ).

Then they usually get a 5-6m kite ( de powerable) then a 10 m foil. Typically students are finding open celled foils, like the apex, Montana, Access, frenzy, or Ikon brand Patrol ( very popular w/ students)!
Lei kites are numerous in brand and cheap on eBay but if you are sure time is of the essence.... A foil ( closed cell foil will be very fast to set up In cold conditions) where an tube kite ( needing a pump) can be a little slower to rig, and closed cell foils are at times in light winds hard to inflate without becoming a leaf blower expert.

As a beginner/ intermediate rider...be thinking safety first... So it's most likely better to lean on the smaller side of the kite size you choose... But consider the use of short lines as well...

A 10m kite with typical 25-27m line set is going to be par for power... Where a 10m kite with a 10 m set of lines can allow a 10 m kite to feel like a 7.5m kite or less. Trick here is to be sure that the safety system works! Test this on a light wind day.
Plus buying short lines and it making them short can be a little tricky...

A good place for you to get some more info would be the local weather channel web site and see if there is a back log of wind data... ( try NOAA) find out the mean average if wind speedsin your area... Get the best kite for that wind speed.

Relative wind to skill equation goes potentially like this:
4m - 30mph winds
6m - 25-30 mph
8m - 20-25mph
10m - 15-25mph
12m - 15-20mph

So on and do forth. But realize this equation is a scale based on skill of the kiter, wind and ground conditions. Also as a rider, whether being under or overpowered and what is desired,....
Hope that this helps.

Crab

Crab's advice is good but his wind ranges are greatly dependant on kite aspect ratio, rider skill, comfort holding power and personal body weight. They are also based on depower foil size so don't go buying a fixed bridle kite based on that recommendation.

How much do you weigh?

Thanks for the advice. Setup time isn't an issue. When i stated snow doesnt stick around long i meant that itll dump 12+ inches of light powder in a few days then a few days or a week later its in the 40s and melting away. Last year we never had snow on the ground for more than a week at a time but still got 60+ in. all season. All suited up I'm around 180 lbs. I think 10m might be a little more size than I want with my skill level. I am a very seasoned snowboarder but my kiting skills are limited to smaller 4m kites. I really only have the dough to get one kite too.

Thanks

You are really stuck between rocks and hard places. Large kites are scary to newbies, but need less wind and make more power to accommodate your developing skills. Small kites make less power, turn faster than you might be able to control, need to be flown in higher (usually more gusty and unpredictable) winds, and might not be enough to move you around.

You might be better off to get a trainer kite to ramp up your kiting skills then step up one notch at a time. 1 kite just never does it all well. But 1 trainer kite can expand your abilities and what you think you can handle.

Very good deal.
And a good size for you

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=24067

I started last year and started on a Montana 6 9.5 meter. A little big for a beginner but i started slow and went on low wind days, saved myself from buying a beginner kite. i went about ten times last year on a frozen lake and i pick up the sport pretty good, watching how to snowkite volume 1 helped alot. I'm also a regular down hill skiier and play hockey which all helps.

First post - hi!

Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd just add on here, since my questions are similar. I've got to get on my local lake (walking distance) to ski it this year. I'm an experienced telemark and alpine skier, have sailed extensively, flew 2 string trick kites as a kid, but have 0 experience with this kind of thing.

I found power kites direct dot com, and the Ozone flow traction (5m) kite for $200.
[Link with review: http://www.powerkitesdirect.com/ozone-flow-traction-kite/]

Obviously I will speak with them about details like what's included, what else I'd need, and what my final price is, but I'm skeptical about anything they'd tell me about choice of kite for the obvious reasons.

From my own reading I'm thinking I could start on a 5M, but I don't really understand this whole "de-power" thing. Is it just a safety mechanism to avoid kitemares, or does it mean I could ski along while using less than the kite's full potential? (Kinda like reefing your main sail?) If so, starting on a larger kite could make sense ...

I weigh almost 200#, but this particular lake rarely has deep snow. Usually it's so wind affected that the snowmobilers stay away, cause it's just too rough and choppy for them. Which means it'd be 1000x less bone jarring than my favorite ski hill, Mount Bohemia (if any of you are familiar)

So, usually hard / icy = FAST snow, lots of natural jumps / kickers / obstacles to keep things interesting, need enough power to propel me up (and through) said obstacles, but nothing capable of gouging up solid ski bases too badly.

What do I need? I'm seriously hoping to avoid the need to start on a trainer, and being able to figure this out even if it means first time out is in winds too light to really go anywhere. Winter wind here is anywhere from 0 - 30 knots, and a windy day is more likely to be gusty and variable than steady.

Also, I really like the idea of a harness around the waist/trunk, since I usually ski for over 6 hours and hanging on for dear life doesn't seem like any fun. Recommendations? I'm hoping one harness would be usable with any and every kite?

HEY! Welcome!

I know that powerkites direct states somewhere that 5m is the best all rounder in regards to size. IMO that is WAY off for most snowkite situations unless the winds are nukin or you're on boiler plate ice. Even then in your size a 7m is much much more useful. I'm the same size and I run 15m Peter Lynn Phantom 2 which is roughly the same as a 9m bridled foil. My next fav is the 12m which is about a 7m bridled foil and she has enough depower to still be fun on fast ice in 40mph winds. (in fact thats where the most fun is IMO)

Depower is exactly what it sounds like, a kite that can dump power if needed. A modern depow kite can cover the wind range of several fixed bridle kites. A 7m will be slightly less powerful than a 7m fixed bridle but it can depower down to about the equivelent of a 3.5-4m fixed bridle. (roughly depending on makes and models)


Depowers generally have primary and secondary safety systems. They also rely on the rider having either a waist or seat harness. Seat and waist harness systems work with all depows, some better than others. I ride similar conditions to what you've described and I like speed so a seat harness serves me best. It puts the tow point low (allows me to handle more kite load), keeps the bar within reach even with a long depowerer throw/range, protects me in crashes and keeps me warm. I've been riding Dakine Fusions for years and literally thousands of miles on the ice and they have never failed me.

Waist harness is prefered for it's lack of restriction, high tow point and comfort (when it fits right).

Our winds always double in regards to gust factor. If it's blowing 12kts it's gusting to 24kts+. GReat for haulin the mail across fast ice, sucky for jumping over boiler plate. Where Do you ride? Sounds like NEw ENgland? Wait Mt. Bohemia? Are you in Michigan? Some friends told me about some killer mountain biking over in that area, and further over in some place called Copper Cove. Trek bikes dumped some $$ in to help make some sweet trails.

Sorry off topic.

Thanks for the help everyone. I've finally made an offer on an awesome kite at a great price. Really pleased about it.

Razeontherock, seeing as how I was in a similar boat as you not too long ago (I snowboard and have some fixed bridle experience on 4 and 5 meters though) i might be able to help you a bit. I spent a lot of time researching the sport and gathering info on kites, (probably 30 to 40 hr, and 20 hrs negotiating with people). I'm nowhere near as qualified to give you advice on kites like many people like Feyd on here but I did find some things that might help you. First off check the for sale thread on here, there's a lot of good deals. There are several people who contacted me offering a specific sweet kite at a good price that you could consider. Check out the kite specs here http://www.powerkites.de/index.php?option=com_kite&view=... . But that's just one kite to consider.

I'd also watch the How To Snowkite Volume 1 DVD since that'll help you as we'll. you could torrent it or buy off amazon. It'll help you understand the differences in kites and depower better, though it doesn't really talk about choosing the size of the kite. But it's a great watch for any beginner.

I read this article which helped but many people may not agree on. http://snowkiting.com/component/content/article/53-buy-equip...

And this one
http://www.kiteworldmag.com/snowkite-guides/snowkite-guide-1...


Also if you find a kite that interests you, you can google search or search in this forum for reviews and specs of it to give you a better understanding of it and what its good for. Check out the manufacturers website and you can find everything from general info on the kite to its manual. You can even search the exact kite in YouTube and probably find some videos of people actually flying it which will give you a little better idea of what it acts like. For example search "apex 3 7.5 m"

I know its tough getting into the sport and progressing with all the subtle differences in kites and equipment that make all the difference, especially when you dont know anyone personally who does the sport And can give you solid advice, but its all about doing the right reseach on everything. The time you put into making a smart decision is the product you'll get out, and youll get a solid kite setup and Wont hurt yourself.

It's totally possible to skip the trainer kite phase and jump into a larger kite because that's exactly what I and many others have done, but you have to be smart and not push yourself too early and do your research so you don't hurt yourself. I took a lot of precautions the first time I flew a kite, a 4m fixed bridle, and it paid off.

Like I said I am nowhere near as qualified as most people on here to give advice and my knowledge and experience in the sport is limited so take whatever i say with a grain of salt. I just thought I would tell you a few things I did to get into the sport smartly and safely. Good luck in your hunt.

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd fun on fast ice in 40mph winds. (in fact thats where the most fun is IMO)

Crazy people unite! :wee:

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd a seat harness serves me best. It puts the tow point low (allows me to handle more kite load), keeps the bar within reach even with a long depowerer throw/range

I'm soaking all this in like a sponge and thank you for a wealth of info it could take me a long time and tons of $ to learn the hard way, but let me make sure I get this part right:

if I go with a waist harness, I'll effectively have a smaller amount of de-power available simply due to how far I can reach? Obviously I can reach farther from my seat than I can from my waist, and this will ultimately limit this factor?

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd Dakine Fusions for years and literally thousands of miles on the ice and they have never failed me.

I noticed a Dakine for sale new and have had nothing but great experiences with their stuff skiing downhill. Seems to me that the harness is NOT the piece of gear to cheap out on!

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd Waist harness is prefered for it's lack of restriction, high tow point and comfort (when it fits right).

The real question (to me) is, how much does the seat harness get in the way of actually skiing? Do you ski bondage? (Fixed heel, alpine boots and bindings?) I do that and will certainly do that first, but telemark is much more athletic and actually more stable when things are tough. You raise the point that I actually have no idea if a seat harness would get in the way of that, or not ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd Where Do you ride? Sounds like NEw ENgland? Wait Mt. Bohemia? Are you in Michigan? Some friends told me about some killer mountain biking over in that area, and further over in some place called Copper Cove. Trek bikes dumped some $$ in to help make some sweet trails. Sorry off topic.

No problem. Trek actually has their HQ very near where I am, in Southeastern Wisconsin. 400 miles from Mt Bohemia, which is indeed my favorite place to ski. I also know the bike guides there - because they used to be the ski patrol. Won't have time to make that trek this year, which is why I say I NEED to ski my local lake, which is pretty big!

I grew up east coast, but never set foot in Maine, and never saw the Presidentials. If I learn this kiting stuff I just may have to correct that mistake :tumble:

I also saw the uber-steep part of the local ski hill from a great angle today, and concocted a way to word a liability waiver so that maybe the owner of it might let me ski that when conditions warrant. (It's off-limits) Skinning uphill is an advantage of telemark, but why not kite up? I would probably increase my vertical tenfold on the day, and MAN would I generate some interest for his locale!!

Thanks for all your help, and even before posting I noticed you have "a few" things for sale. Feel free to PM me what you've got that you think would fit the bill,

Ray

I think that you both can use a 3m Fixed Bridle 1st ? You need to figure out the ropes on a kite like this to speed up the transition into a good depower. It is the kite you will use to teach friends + to handle strong winds as you build your quiver. With the 3m FB a harness is not required. I got my 1st runs on snow with a 3m trainer . They do serve up power .

everyone needs a 3m kite or 2......its not a trainer. it's such an important piece of equipment..... i cant get enough of them.

Agree on the 3m. You'll always have a need for one. With the lack of snow on the lake last year but plenty of black ice, hockey skates and the 3 meter were the recipe for great fun!! When the winds were up you could really haul butt. A larger kite would not have been as fun. Park and ride with a 3 meter on ice is sweet.

I'm with these guys, a 3m is a handy thing to have. First as mentioned before, it sharpens your handling skills which is critical. Sharpening your skills on a kite that is has a high potential of beating the hell out of you (at best) is just not the smartest thing to do.

I started on a 3m fb, got my handling down and moved up. Still have a 3m and I was actually out on it the other day in 30mph winds on my Coyotes because I had to get my damn kite fix. ANd you know what? It was freaking AWESOME. Once you have the trainer you learn on it and then it gets positioned as the "stupid high winds" kite. They never lose thier usefulness.

I read both those articles a while back. The first one is pretty good and describes a way to get into snowkiting on the cheap but if you plan to do a lot of riding, and in Wisco there can be a lot of riding, that set up is gonna get old quick. If I'm gonna burn 80 to 100 miles in a day I'm not doing it in some makeshift set up if I can help it.

The second article is okay but lacks a lot of vital detail IMO. It's a nice mix of snowkite info and style content but not really that detailed in regards to a broader spectrum of pedestrian easy access prime location snowkite expirience. Nothing about that article tells you anything about how to deal with a boney frozen lake for example.


You can only learn so much from the internet. A dialog with people who have real world expirience is the best way to get checked out on this stuff. A lesson is a good idea but that isn't always feasible do to location.

If you can only swing one kite I always recommend a 7-8m (depending on manufacturer.) And a decent harness and you'll be set for most situations.

The thing with kites is in any given size you can squeeze or supress power levels simply by adjusting line lengths. Longer lines=more power and better low end, short lines= less power, better top end. Take for example the 7m. You double back the lines and you've really cut the power down if the wind turns nasty on ya. On the other hand if the winds die out a bit you can add extensions to get a little more juice out of the wing.

Both tricks involve some loss in flight quality but can make the difference between flyin and the walk of shame.

Oh, and in answer to your question about the harnesses. A harness won't improve or affect the amount of depower the kite system has built into it. But the excessive reach that some kiters expirience with a waist harness can. It may have a ton of depow but the full range may be beyond your fingertips. Sorry for any confusion there.

I have no problem riding in the seat harness with skis. In either tele or alpine gear it works great. Some people complain that the seat harness feels restrictive and they can't ride in it but those same people are usually in waist harnesses when not on snow.

I can't ride for beans in a waist harness. But I'm not used to it and haven't spent enough time getting used to it so the problem isn't as much the harness as it is my willingness to get used to it. But if you look at any aspects of kite power where people are going for speed and they are in seat harnesses. Except maybe the buggy guys.


So there you are. I used to live in southeaster WIsco, further south than you down in Wilmot. Learned to ski on Wilmot mountain no less. Never thought I'd grown up to spend all my time siing attached to a kite. You have a ton of lakes to choose from and you aren' too far a drive from Mille Lacs where they have the Mille Lacs snowkite crossing. Great time even if you aren't into the race thing. I love the midwest.

Man, what a great intro to a great forum! I appreciate all the helpful advice here. What I find is that most often winter winds are 5 - 15 mph, with the time of day I'm most likely to be out being at the low end of that wind window. Less frequently, the forecast calls for winds of 10 - 20.

I'm thinking a 10m with de-power would be fine for all that, with my first trip out aiming for such a light day I may not even put my skis on, but just fly it like a trainer, and if it seems do-able, go ahead and start trying to ski upwind.

Usually if the winds go above 20 at all, it's 20- 30 and then on a 10m I'd be grounded. I'm thinking I can afford to be a snow snob, and get plenty of time on the lake with winds at 20 or less. Those 20 - 30 mph days are COLD, and as others have pointed out, falling hurts more than it used to. At age 48, it takes far longer for me to heal, too. (Of course I can hope to really take to this sport, and develop a quiver over time)

So in this wind category, with body weight close to #200 plus heavy ski boots and skis, hydration pack storing extra layers and some grub, helmet ... surely over 20# of gear, blasting through bumps and crud (not smooth fast ice) will wind of less than 20 have the potential to beat the hell out of me on a 10m? I should also mention that out in the open on the lake, even with the kite a ways up, I don't expect to find wind any higher than the forecast. More like, I'll be able to get out of any wind shadow, and get the full amount predicted which they've been pretty good about (even though they have no clue if it's going to rain or not)

As far as safety goes, letting the kite stall completely (chicken loop?) seems a no-brainer. I'm under the impression that the kite will then not be able to fly? The most it could do is flop around and get tangled? (And falling on skis is WAY different than being attached to a board, with no release! I know a lot of boarders with a broken tailbone)

Hehehe yup it's a good forum. As a general rule I don't like being on forums but the people here are pretty great. Egos are pretty much checked at the door I think and that makes a huge difference. Most are eager to help and there's a lot of knowledge base to draw from. And at 48 you're in the middle of the age spectrum here.

Anywho, cutting loose the chicken loop on kites like Apexs and Frenzies or Montanas is the secondary safety. The primary is usually called the "hat". It's red and shaped, well, like a HAT. Some are pull to release some are push but most do the same thing, slacken the front lines to the point where the kite falls out of the sky. All the load goes to the back lines.

Some claim this completely depowers the kite but my expirience has been that in some high winds the kite can pull enough to keep you in trouble. When the "hat" isn't enough then you go to the Chicken Loop and let the kite go. At your weight a 10m can be a ton of fun. But when you have winds that double in a gust she can be a ton of work too.

Chris, all the buggy guys wear seat harnesses. Nothing like a high towpoint to help the kite drag you out of your seat! :o

Depower is a relative term. When you depower the kite using trim you change the Angle Of Attack spilling wind. You go about this in a few ways. Pulling in the bar , tightening your trim strap or both. Even with bar and trim strap in you will experience some lift depending on the size of kite. There is no such thing as total depower.

Going to safety is a different thing. Like Feyd says you usually deploy a red top hat type knob or ball. Kites go to safety a few ways. Some foils drop to 2 back lines and your kite will back down to the ground. Others use a seperate 5th line through the bar to a seperate bridle up the middle of the foil. The bar runs up the 5th line that remains attached to your leash and the kite tacos back on the centre bridle. Another method also allows the bar to run up a line but in this case your leash is attached to one of the 4 lines and the kite flags away.

Most kites have 1 final safety release. Usually another ball on the safety leash. Deploy this last release and you will be completely detached from your kite.

A couple of very good sites to visit are www.coastalwindsports.com for the tutorials and www.kitesurfingschool.org.

10m is a good over all size for the winds you describe but starting with a 3m fixed bridle will honestly speed things up + make them a lot safer. Having a 3m in the bag allows you to work out the ropes. It will serve you when the 10m is too much + be the tool for introducing friends to the sport. YES a 10m depower can cause you a ton of hurt in winds just over 10mph . In many , many ways.

Most companies make a combination seat / waist harness. I like my Mystic and use it full seat.

This is a great forum with a large number of well over 40. Folks on here really want to help you out. It is what Bob started the site for. He is paying it forward with the site and we all like to do the same !

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd most do the same thing, slacken the front lines to the point where the kite falls out of the sky. All the load goes to the back lines. Some claim this completely depowers the kite but my expirience has been that in some high winds the kite can pull enough to keep you in trouble. When the "hat" isn't enough then you go to the Chicken Loop and let the kite go.

:o

I don't like either one of those scenarios! [Cue Yosemite Sam: when I say whoa, I mean WHOA!! Stupid dragon]

And here I thought the secondary safety would just further drop the kite out of the sky, not let go of it completely. Looking through some manuals, I get the idea that some of these chicken loops could, potentially, come undone by accident. Gawd I hope I'm wrong about that!!

Of the ways to go to safety that Bladerunner just delineated, are there any that are more reliable than others? Isn't there some way to incorporate more than one in the same kite, building in some redundancy? (Like drop the front edge, and then for step two make both tips collapse, in to the middle?)

raze, not sure where you are in WI but I'm in Green Bay and "Thanson2001ok" is in Appleton. We both fly depowers and ski the lakes in the winter so perhaps we all could meet up this winter for some fly time. I'm not exactly an expert kiter but would be willing to show you what I know and your free to try any of my equipment. Lake winnebago has the "Sturgeon Stampede" kite gathering every year near Fondulac that draws many kiters from around the state. I mainly fly Green Bay when ice is good and Shawano lake. Sometimes I venture to Winnebago for a change of pace. Soon as ice sets up I'll be out there.

Rob.

5th line and a few types of single line flag hook directly to your harness with a safety leash.

You can add a leash to most leashless systems. In some cases that is refered to as a suicide leash set up since the leash remains attached to the CL and you are really just depowering the kite and letting go.

Most modern safety systems are reliable. I have never had to go to my secondary release and detach from the kite completely.

Of all the systems I am most fond of 5th line.

IT's only in really bad condtions that kite that release to the back lines still pose an threat. And Like BR said soem flag out on a 5th line or like Arcs and Some LEI and Now more and nore bridled fooil flag out on a single fly line attached to a leash.

I've only had to cut a kite loose 2x and both thimes once I was detached she just layed there after blowing a couple feet.

Wait, Buggy guys wear seat harness's? Like Fusions or something a little more svelt. I've seen some buggy guys in pick with harnesses like the Ozone and with waist harness's (mostly picks of people getting ejected.) But I don't think I've ever seen a buggy guy in a regular kitesurf harness. :dunno:

Quote:

Originally posted by CheddarheadLake winnebago has the "Sturgeon Stampede" kite gathering every year near Fondulac that draws many kiters from around the state. I mainly fly Green Bay when ice is good and Shawano lake.

HA! I've driven right past both, many times, every year since '05, to go skiing. (Bohemia)

Quote:

Originally posted by Feyd Wait, Buggy guys wear seat harness's? Like Fusions or something a little more svelt. I've seen some buggy guys in pick with harnesses like the Ozone and with waist harness's (mostly picks of people getting ejected.) But I don't think I've ever seen a buggy guy in a regular kitesurf harness. :dunno:

Buggiers wear all sorts of harnesses, but very rarely waist harnesses. Rock climbing, tree climbing, snowkite, or specific buggy harnesses, as long as it stays low and is comfortable sitting in a tight seat and getting pulled into the side rails.

Kite surfing seat harnesses are often too stiff when sitting, and as Bobby says, waist harnesses have the towpoint too high and would be very uncomfortable and dangerous.

Ahhh IC. Explains the ejections.