I've been looking for lowest wind flown data on NPW's with no luck. I'm tired of going out on a 0 gusting 3 day, pulling out everything just to pack it all up an hour later with maybe 5 minutes of flight time and and going home frustrated.

I need a "go-to" low wind kite, and I was thinking the NPW (maybe 5m) would do the trick. The blade is too massive to turn in low wind < 5mph. Do you folks *cough*Kitebuilder, Cerebite *cough* have any suggestions on best low wind NPW size? Cerebite, Sunday's wind is exactly what I'm talking about.

Thanks in advance!

...you go out when it's 0-3? Hell, that doesn't even get my wind-chimes going, much less a kite!

eager to see the results!

5m is tooooo small @ 3mph.


For Buggy....?

I fly my 15 meter npw9 in 5 mph winds and below on the beach with smooth winds.

Susan (npw goddess)

You should have voiced this concern Sunday. I have two NPW you could have tried.

The kites you were flying on Sunday need greater than 7 mph winds.

You saw me struggling to keep up my stacked REVs that need about 3 mph.

I next brought out the 6.5m foil and I could barely keep it up.

I will do a little bragging. I am very good at light winds. I can help you.

So...visit us again. We can stick 30 different kites in your hand and let you try. We all like helping each other.

Man in 8mph winds I use a 6.5 vapor and still have some problems. Granted the vapor isn't an npw but kitemaker4 uses 9+m. In 6mph winds. Maybe a 15m or bigger would do it.

Really long lines! The bottom end for my 5.5m Nasa Star 2 is probably around 8 knots for the buggy. 6 knots for the 7m and 4 - 5 knots for the 10m....that's all on 20m lines. Should be able to add a knot or two to the bottom end with 30m lines.

I seem to remember Jeff saying something about flying his 15m NPW on really, really long lines in zero (or thereabouts!) knots....not sure if that was buggying or not.

sorry you asked me that question on Sunday and then I got distracted and never gave you an answer.

The conditions we had on Sunday [3 -7 mph gusty & shifty, stable/ heavy buggy on grass] were not quite enough for me to try buggying. A steady 5+ and I would have been playing in the buggy.

I think it was after you left but Paul [jeepersjoey] broke out his 6.5m Ozone Method [semi closed cell] which had good power. It had good static pull bordering on enough to buggy [probably would have gotten my XR+ going, maybe Paul's Libre but not the VTT].

If I had been motivated to set up the buggy for these conditions I probably would have gone for either the 9m or 12m NPW9 but it takes a lot of apparent wind to get that large of a unstructured kite "inflated" and moving. I have not tried combining the 12m with 30m lines yet. I have started experimenting with power rings or choke lines after seeing another local basically add 2m of effective area to his kites with them to good effect.

Being very balanced flyers, or brake biased depending on your perspective, and due to their shape the NPWs are very maneuverable and tight turners in skilled hands. contributing to this is their native shape, the 12m is c. 6m x 6m triangle rather than a typical foils 1m x12m oblong.
The NPW9 holds wind better than the NPW5 due to the additional rank of bridling to shape the wing.

As jeepersjoey stated, come on out and fly anything in my quiver [most of it is hard to break :wee: [I have tried :saint:]]

Nice, thank you all for the input. A bit more detail:

I'd love to be able to choose my wind, but I just have to take the opportunities as they arise. I get a bit of time. I go out. Sometimes there's wind. A disturbingly large percentage of the time there's almost none. I have a LOT of experience flying FB foils in low wind situations. I'd be sort of embarrassed to tell you all how many hours I have spent running left (kite to right), then running right (kite to left) because I'm the only thing generating any wind. I'm pretty sure there are some cricket teams, soccer coaches and lacrosse folks that think I'm actually certifiably crazy. On the bright side, I lost a lot of weight from all that running around and never had to enter a gym... but I digress.

Sunday's wind was actually better than many other days I've *flown* and I could've flown at least the Blade, the Beamer or the Bulldog (no alliteration intended), but I try really hard to avoid the me-kiting-while-wife-chases-toddler syndrome. Therefore, I was trying to set SOMETHING up that she could put in the air, make a few turns on and enjoy. We ended up getting my 1.7m 2-line ITW Bulldog (trainer) into the air and she did great, but that kite totally sucks to self-launch, so it's a 2-person kite... period. Add the energetic and line-obsessed toddler and you've got what is commonly referred to in parenting parlance as "a circus." So, like a moron, I optimistically set up two single line kites, two long lines (see below) on the Bulldog, then half set-up the Blade before I was told that she wouldn't fly it (oops). So, while she actually ended up having a great time, I was a bit frazzled by the end of flying / start of nap time.

However, with the right kite, Sunday might have gone like this: Get out of car, see low winds, grab XXXXX kite, unpack XXXXX kite, fly XXXXX kite, smile, hand handles to wife, she flies XXXXX kite, she smiles, we take turns, we smile, we pack up, we go home before nap time. So, if I could make a super low wind NPW, family flying (and maybe even low wind traction stuff for me) gets a whole hell of a lot less frustrating.

Regardless, it sounds like it would really be helpful to take a spin on one of your NPW's. Sunday wasn't the day for it, but maybe when we get together next (Friday?). Unfortunately, now every time we get together there will be plenty of wind, darn it... .

And it also sounds like (eventually) the zero-wind machine I'm looking for would probably be a 10+m NPW9b on 30m+ lines. Does that sound about right? If that's the case, I'm going to start hitting you builders up with questions within the next few weeks.

Some things:
1) John Holgate: I actually tried the super long line thing on Sunday. I attached 2x 20m spectra and 2x25m dyneema and tried to make it work on the ITW Bulldog 1.7m, but something was borked and it was NOT the day to troubleshoot bridle/new ideas (thanks, btw, for taking a look at that, Cerebite.) I will be trying that again when I'm solo...

2) Don't let your inexperienced wife pack your lines unsupervised. We've been over both parapacking and winding numerous times, but when I got to the car and looked in the hockey bag, there are just loops of wadded up 25m lines laying inside all over. Luckily, she totally promised to untangle them (anyone taking bets?)

3) Did you guys see the 93m Phanny thread in Kite Reviews?!@?!... awesome. I love the idea of mega-long lines. That Bulldog on 30m lines makes HUGE loops and flies really fast. It's fun and can pull you on a board if you don't wanna turn . Haven't tried it on anything else. I think the Blade is on 22m and it seems like the *standard* length.

4) Susan (and anyone else who's into building the NPW's), are you familiar with the Teega plans based on the NPW9b? Think there is any benefit to using this modified version? The notes say it's slightly more responsive and has a bit wider window, which he says is better for bigger sizes. Thoughts?

I buggied at NABX a few years ago with a 15m Kitemaker4 kite with 15m lines in 1 to 2mph wind when NO ONE was out on the playa. Longer lines would have made it an awesome day but didnt know it back then. I think it was last year I took a 13m Century out in the calm of the day at NABX with 200' lines and it was all I could do to get back on the ground and land the kite. An 8m would have been enough to bug with.
Fletcht and I buggied at North beach in Washington State a couple of years ago with 1 to 2mph wind, flying 8m and 10m Centuries on 160" and 200" lines. We were doing 15mph up and down the beach for an hour before we took a break to laugh at what we just did.

One thing that will help fly the a 15m NPW in zero to 2mph wind( or any NPW) is to have the kite set up on the handles so you dont have to feather the brakes/power. I use the PKD handles on all my NPWs with the brake cleat. Hook the strop to the harness and pull the brakes in untill the kite flys itself, then back off the brake just a hair. Now you can fly with out using your hands and if you apply just a hair of brakes it is like turning on the turbo, or just tighten up the brakes a hair more and sit back and hang on.

One thing about longer lines that is rather important to remember is the lag time of the kite and there are times the distance from you to the kite is a lot farther than the trees or buildings you are flying over.:o:o:o:o

<rubs chin>
hrm.... verrrry interesting....

Seems like Spectra would be a REALLY good idea at longer lengths, eh?

Are we talking buggying or just static flying? My wind ratings are minimum for enough power to park and ride with my buggy. Static flying you can go down to a couple of knots. Here's a vid of (Herc ?) with the Nasa Star 1 7m in 2-3 knots...

this is the 15m that Kitemaker4 made me. This pic is the kite on 12m lines in 2mph wind. My grandson is 9 years old and is not able to stand his ground, he has to land the kite and drag it back to the truck to start over again.
We buggied on the Cricket field with this kite just after this pic was taken.

I have some of Born-Kites coming, will be interesting to see what all the hoopla is about.

Sweet pic Jeff

Reguarding the teega nasa wing. I have made a few of them and did not like how they flew. They were very twitchy and you could not take your eyes off of them when flying. I like to be able to just park the kite when I buggy and that is why I fly the npw9 nasa wings.

Susan (npw goddess)

You can always start at 32m and work your way down! ;-)

omfg. 32m AND rainbow?!?! Could I ask for anything more? Okay, I actually really hate rainbow kites. Never understood the association between rainbows and kites, but to each their own. Actually, that looks sort of terrifying. It must feel like flying a small house.

That's really helpful. Yes, I'm talking about static flying for the nonce. I'll worry about traction later after I get proper rolling gear. JH, by "park and ride" do you mean able to get the buggy rolling without pushing it like Fred Flintstone? I've never actually piloted a buggy.

And Susan, I will be bugging you with questions once I get details put together. I looked up all the plans you suggested and now I just need to find the time to spec everything out and order the materials but I want to run it by you before I do, if that's okay. I'll skip the Teega for now.

Thanks again for all the help, everyone. I can't wait to see what you think of the Born kite, BigKid. Are you flying it on a bar or handles?

Quote:

Originally posted by Proletariat I can't wait to see what you think of the Born kite, BigKid. Are you flying it on a bar or handles?

Yes.

Quote:

JH, by "park and ride" do you mean able to get the buggy rolling without pushing it like Fred Flintstone? I've never actually piloted a buggy.

I mean that I can generate enough power to 'parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- the kite in the window and let it pull me along. As opposed to having to work the kite vigorously up and down (sineing) to generate enough power to move the buggy.

I usually fly my Nasa Star 2's rigged as a two line kite on a bar with a third 'depower' line in the center. Although pulling the third line folds the nose over and does reduce power but it also slows the kite down and sits it further back in the window - so not really useful in the buggy but quite good to use as a safety or kill the power in the kite.

They fly fine on handles too...

If you want to fly in ultra low wind, even zero wind, and just static, why not fly a stunt kite? There are plenty of stunt kites available that will fly in much lower wind than power kites, there are even kites designed to fly indoors.

Just sayin :dunno:

Thanks to cerebite for letting me fly his 5m and 9m NPW's! I really got a nice sense of how these kites work (still have a lot of practice to put in, though... definitely different than a ram foil). In about 3-5mph, the 5 was really nice, and the 9 pulled harder than I thought it would. I think the sweet spot for me would be a 7m because I could still handle a bit more wind, but could also fly it around in almost nothing.

DemBones, I was thinking about it, but if I'm going to buy/build something, I'd like to have a little added traction versatility. For instance, if the wind picks up and I'm flying my 0 wind kite, but only have 20 minutes left before dinner, maybe I just break out the board and ride a bit using the NPW.

Thanks again for all the tips and help. I'll keep you posted on what I figure out, and bigkid, lemme know what you think of that kite when you get it, please.

NPWs by there very nature fly in very low winds, but you need the size for the power. I have an 11.8m NPW21 (NASA) and a 10m NPW HA for low wind flying.
NASA


NPW HA


If you're thinking of building go for the NPW21 it's a much better kite IMHO to the 9b or 5.
The other thing to consider is adding a UDS (universal depower system) to the bigger kites. I have made and added them to my 8m,11.8m NPW21s and also to my 7m NPW9b. It gives them a wider wind range.

Like the Nasa Nasa.

How well does 'the pirate' go upwind?

Cheers,
the pirate/NPW HA is no better than the other NPWs at upwind, but I am experimenting with adding spars, my 5m NPW21 is fitted with them and seems much better, I have also fitted them to my 8m which also has the UDS fitted but the weather is so bad I haven't had chance to test it yet.

As for the UDS hope this helps:

For the NPWs I added an extra pulley as the power A1-A10 then grouped into 5, with A1/2 being static.

There is also a company who sell them but it will not fit a NPW as it needs four sets of pulleys:
http://www.paraflysurf.ch/UDS.htm

Quote: Originally posted by kitemaker4

Reguarding the teega nasa wing. I have made a few of them and did not like how they flew. They were very twitchy and you could not take your eyes off of them when flying. I like to be able to just park the kite when I buggy and that is why I fly the npw9 nasa wings. Susan (npw goddess)

I was wondering which NPW9 profile is good? I don't want a twitchy one either. Do you use the c bridals or just a & b? Can you provide a link to a good profile? What about the "v-nose" modification like on this site http://freedom2000.free.fr/NPW_NPW9B_plans_eng.html?
Thank, Ben

I just use the a and b bridles. Some others have played around and added the c.

Susan (npw goddess)

BigE's signature got me thinking... Is there any kite that looks dumber from below and more awesome from the side than the npw?

From below, it looks like a walmart pillow, or a cartoon cloud. From the side, however, it looks like a sleek hunting predator coming to eat you, or a lowflying spacecraft hell-bent on laying waste to its enemies.

I'm just sayin...