I tried out my new Apex III 7.5 today. Winds 10-15 knots. When I pull the bar, the kite stops to fly. When I let go of the bar or push it out, the kite powers up, What is wrong??
Are the line numbers right? Should the lower (brake) lines be connected to the bar end? And the upper power lines should be in the middle? Does not make sense to me, but I guess it should be that way when I connect the numbers right. But why does the depower seem to be working opposite of what it should?

This is how it should be set up:
http://www.coastalwindsports.com/images/DepowerSideView.jpg

You problem also may be that your brake lines that go to the bar tips are to short. Make sure your lines are setup correctly and if it still flys how you describe, add a small leader the same length on each side of the kite on the brake leader. I'd start with about 6-8 inches and go from there.

From the pics I can tell that my lines are correct. It also makes sense that my break lines could be too short, so when I try to power it by pulling the bar, it actually back-stalls. Is it normal that HQ supplies too short lines?
There are 3 knots on the mid-line connection (at the end of the depower system), would it help to shorten the mid-lines instead of lengthening the brake lines?

Depower is a confusing term.

Good news is your kite isn't broken. You just need to rethink your approach. ( forget depower until you are in motion )

Think more about , Front lines + back lines. Speed equals power. Front is gas back is brake.

Front lines, bar out the kite will want to fly forward and fast. Giving a short burst of power as it passes the power zone. It will lose that power and be hard to turn at the edge.
Back line input, bar in slows the forward motion as you pass through the power zone so less temporary power produced . The added back line tension stalls the forward speed but is needed for turning.

So..... 1st off you are flying at the very low end of the kites range. In that wind I trim the kite strap more than 50% . Fly the kite with bar out and fast to create speed and apparent wind = power. As you get to the edge pull in slightly on the bar to slow the kite + add brake input to turn. Once your turn is complete swing it fast through the window on the front lines , brake to turn, repeat.

If the kite is simply sitting at the window edge ( with you standing or in motion ) depower as a term makes more sense . At this point andjusting the AOA has the effect you imagine. Flying on front lines allows your canopy to point straight into the wind and spill it off without interfering with the surface. If you shorten thr back lines the kite's AOA is now angled into the wind. This creates a power boost + changes where the kite will sit in the windows edge.

Depower kites act different when in motion , as they are designed and when flying static. Also when they enter their sweet spot they start do do more of the flying. Flying in too low of wind means YOU must be creating the apparent wind.

I hope that explains things a bit better ? Nothing like trying and trying again to get it right !

Angus does a great job of making this clear at www.coastalwindsports.com. Read through his tutorial. It says everything I would like to.

The kite is working properly. The winds you were flying are on the light side for that kite ... also were you flying static?

pull the trim strap in and fly the kite fast.

The "idea" of pull the bar in and get more power only works when your in motion on a buggy, board, etc AND in the mid to upper wind range of the kite.

When you pull in the bar the kite changes its angle to scoop more wind. As long as there is enough wind you will get more power. If there is not enough wind then your kite will stall as you describe

Yup, what Dakitez and Blade said.

As far as the lines go. I always check even a new set of lines. I have learned never to trust a new set. I have had new sets that were 6" out, stretched 12"or stretch unequally on me after only a few sessions. So, I check any new or used set of lines and pre-stretch them. I will check them again after the first real powered up session and periodically during the season if I notice that my trim is no longer working like it should.

Classic post and very common for the first time de-power flyer. A perfect "WTF"moment well explained by Ken and Dino.

Shortening the front lines is the same as lengthening the back lines but those knots on the center (front) line attachments are the easiest way to trim the kite.

Your avatar photo shows you on skis and your location in Norway suggests the same (duh!) so get on those skis and get the kite in motion and you will find that everything works as claimed. Let us know how it works out!

I remember the first time Angus explained this to me. I'll never forget the word "backasswards". It all makes sense when you get moving. Here is a video of me using a Phantom II depower kite in the buggy. Just watch what I'm doing with the bar and how pulling it in while moving or about to move, makes me go faster. There is always a balance point of just enough bar pull to maximize the power and speed without choking the kite. It's easiest to notice that I let the bar all the way out when it was time to slow down. The kite still had some pull, but it was much less and I was able to turn into the wind to kill my speed.

The 3 knots on the front line; should I try to connect to the knots closest to the bar?

It is a question of trim. In winds that are light for that kite, try moving the front lines up the knots closer to the bar to speed up the kite a bit. Then get the kite in to motion on your skis and see how it behaves. Your center trim strap will give you all the adjustment you need and your position on the three knots adjusts that range up or down a bit.

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Originally posted by r-ling The 3 knots on the front line; should I try to connect to the knots closest to the bar?

If you move to the closest knot to the bar in lighter winds chances are the brake lines will be so slack you will have a very difficult time turning the kite. The middle knot is the "sweet spot" for me in most conditions.

DAKITEZ I love the analogy of the kite scooping more wind for power , scoop too much and it cant pull the flyer or itself thru the air.

Hey Beamer, was that 54mph? Nice! I like it near the end, kite, road, kite, road

R-ling, listen to all of those guys. I have an Apex III 10m and I am learning also and had the same problem. You can also mess with the trim strap while you are practicing and see what it does for you as well. I put a cheesy video of me and my friend learning on my kite and you will see how it back stalls and I tell him to let out the bar http://vimeo.com/57469436 .

It was 53.8 but I rounded up with the hand signals. Fun stuff for sure.

Another way to think of it is like a manual transimission. When you pull the bar in, your are upshifting, you can't put a car in 5th gear when you are going 10mph, it will stall. To get power at a low speed, you need to use a lower gear (sheet out). Every gear has a power band (range of speed at which the gear generates the most power). Same with a control bar, you have a range of speed in which the kite has most power when the bar is in a certain position.

The kite is different than a car since it can be at different speeds while you are riding along maintaining speed, like when you are sining the kite (moving in a sine). Dip the kite, sheet in to get power, kite going up, sheet out to get power.

This is a fascinating discussion. I almost passed it up because I don't have an Apex, but I'm glad I read it. It will definitely help me in my kiting endeavors.

Well, I will keep it alive by commenting on my Apex III 10M I flew again yesterday, in below 0 temps

Long story short I used the trim strap to increase(?) the AoA, pulled it in (which is depower I guess because you are actually removing the slack in the brake lines because you are pulling in the power lines). Because of this I thought the kite was flying with something wrong in the bridle because it looked like the brakes were constantly under tension. Well, duh!:dunno: Of course they were under tension, because I pulled in the trim strap. When I started flying it with some de-power bar applied it started flying how I remember it flying without the trim strap pulled in.

I didn't keep it short but I wanted to point out my stupidity and what I learned.

If you fly with the trim strap all of the way out it will start flying best with the bar all of the way out.*
When you trim in, don't forget to bring in the bar the same amount or you will be flying with the parking brake on

Oh, and if you fly on a frozen lake with no snow, get an ice screw! Crap is that annoying when you are trying to figure out a tangle and everything is sliding around

*I'm quite a noob so there are caveats to all of this and I am aware of that.

That doesn't sound right to me.

Assuming proper bar/ line setup...

Shortening the trimstrap... shortens the front lines... lengthens (slackens) the back lines... depowers the kite.
Lengthening the trimstrap...lengthens the front lines... shortens (tightens) your back lines... powers the kite.

Use it to adjust the overall power in the kite for any given wind speed and in order to keep the bar in roughly the same area on the depower rope (the sweetspot) for that wind speed while riding.

While riding... sheeting out the bar to depower the kite on the fly in the gusts... sheet in the bar to power up the kite on the fly in the lulls.

In marginal conditions... sheeting out with the bar on the fly can reduce stalling... shortening the trimstrap can reduce stalling... tugging on the front lines can reduce stalling. All of these are basically doing the same thing... shortening the front lines and lengthening the back lines.

Hmm, okay, I hear you and that makes sense. I was thinking more like a teeter-totter but it sounds like the trailing lines are only there to steer and change the shape of the trailing edge of the kite. In theory could it fly without the brake lines? I know, no steering, etc. but I just want to know if the bridle attached to the leading edge lines will hold the shape and let it fly.

I find what you said interesting because the trailing edge of my kite seemed to be pulled in more than usual and it seemed to fly better when I had an equal amount of de-power in the bar. I wonder if I did indeed have a bridle problem. I will have to mess with it more and do some testing next time I am out.

Thanks.

I always trim my kites to the current wind by adjusting it so the kite has a touch of backstall while flying static with the bar all the way in. This means that at speed, the kite will be slightly more powered due to wind pressure on the backlines. If the wind increases, I shorten my front line trim just a bit to add some slack to the back lines and some depower range.

If you have your centre lines connected to the front of the kite . Outside lines to back and all lines are equal length ( may want to check them ) then it should go like this.

Shorten the frront lines by tightening the trim strap, or pushing the bar out or both. With strap tight and bar out you should have a bit of slack on your back lines and trouble turning. Most kites should fly on nothing but front line input. Turning is the issue.

Opening the strap or pulling in the bar should make your back lines less loose and help with turning. Too much and the kite will stall out.

I launch with about 80% trimmed in. If I can pull the bar in and not stall then I open it a bit . I tend to ride with the trim strap about 50 / 60% but everybody who shares with me seems to open the strap almost full.

I am not certian if the Apexx shape shifts as well as tilt AOA? With Flysurfer shortening the strap or pulling the bar bring the wing tips in and changes the projected area as well as AOA.

I find depower a confusing term and prefer to think Front lines and Brakes.

Thanks for the tips everyone! I like the idea of trimming in all of the way and then backing it off a bit so I have some room to trim after flying a bit. All excellent things to remember when I go out next to figure out how to fly it better.

I haven't examined the bridle enough to know where they are all connected to see if the shape changes with the trim strap.

Finally got a decent tryout with the Apex III (7.5) in good wind (up to 20 knots), it was almost too much to handle. I have now the middle lines connectet to the 2nd knot. Works best. I tried the inner knots, but then the kite was very difficult to turn, so I moved it out to the 2nd again. But still the kite gives a pretty hard pull with the bar all the way out. But when crusing down the lake, this is kind'a neat, relaxes the arms for a while. all in all, this is a great kite

Great discussion. I'm taking lots of copious notes on this one!

I guess if we want to keep it going, something else I have found is the depower-stopper ball. When I was out on the ice I had my sheeting strap all of the way out so when my bar was all of the way out the kite flew great. It is also easy to "park-and-ride" like this because you can use one hand on the middle of the bar to keep the kite flying straight. No pulling, you can keep your torso facing forward, etc.. However, when I sheeted in 50% I couldn't get the kite to fly as well unless I pulled the bar in, which made it hard to fly one-handed. That is also when I figured out that when you sheet-in you also need to bring the bar in or there may be constant brakes being applied (I still haven't confirmed this. Someone said that the brakes should be MORE slack because you are bring the kite closer to you. But that is for a different post). Well, that is when I figured out that I should move the stopper ball down so I can have the depower bar at the right spot and park-and-ride again.

I have also found out that in gusty winds it can be a PITA to solo set up the kite. I am sure this can be true with all foils, as the bridle likes to wrap the wing tip(s). Then, when you try to launch it is a mess. I use an ice screw with the brakes applied but the shifting wind can bounce it around and wrap itself up. I think next time I need to pile snow on it once I confirm everything looks good.

Another flying tip I have found is that for a really tight turn just reach up and pull the brake line corresponding to the direction you want to turn

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. That is also when I figured out that when you sheet-in you also need to bring the bar in or there may be constant brakes being applied

The more you sheet in, the LESS tension on the rear lines (not really brakes - the whole angle of attack of the kite changes).

I like to ride with the bar about half way - so, I sheet in (or out) till I get the bar where I want it. When I say 'sheet in' , I'm pulling the trim strap in. With the bar half way - which is easier to reach and I can still ride single handed - allows me to let the bar out if I cop a gust or pull the bar in if I want a little more ooomph.

When I turn, I pull the bar fully in as I turn then let the bar out again as soon as the kite is going straight.

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(I still haven't confirmed this. Someone said that the brakes should be MORE slack because you are bring the kite closer to you. But that is for a different post)

I had this argument with myself because of an earlier post by zero gee saying the same this as you did. Here is where I am confused; say you are fully trimmed out and your bar is also sheeted out. Now, for arguments sake let's say all 4 lines have the same tension on them in that configuration. So if you trim in, you are pulling the leading edge lines toward you correct? This, in turn, creates a greater AOA right? If your lines are like a triangle emanating from you, the kiter, and the angles all need to =180, when you pull the top line toward you to increase the angle, the bottom line needs to move away to keep the same total angle, right? So the only thing I can imagine that is happening is that the mixing pulleys on the bridle bring the leading edge toward you while releasing the middle/rear bridle to increase the AOA.

If that is what is happening it makes sense.

I need to stare at my kite while flying static to see if I can tell what is happening to the lines when I play with the trim strap.

Thanks in advance for any clarity.

Futahaguro here's a simple video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj2OjHokvUA&noredirect=1 discard every thing you got in your head right now and start over trying to understand whats going on.

next time your on the interstate roll your winda down and put your hand out............lay your hand flat allowing air to pass equally owner the top and bottom of your hand..............this is bar out.........now raise your fingertips......feel the air slow down put create power and lift............this equals bar in.....

remember this as your flying...........

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Originally posted by tridude next time your on the interstate roll your winda down and put your hand out............lay your hand flat allowing air to pass equally owner the top and bottom of your hand..............this is bar out.........now raise your fingertips......feel the air slow down put create power and lift............this equals bar in..... remember this as your flying...........

I use the same explanation .. it hits it spot on! One thing I would add to this is .. when you stop the car and point your fingers up .. nothing happens. This simulates pulling in the bar with light wind. Kite will stall