I have talked with many who love the pl arcs but i never hear about people that dont like them.
I might get a scorpion, I am still thinking on it.
I just want to know if there are any downsides when comared to a fully bridled foil.

Things I already know aboput arcs:
good:
-absorb gusts well
-auto zenith
-no bridle tangles

bad:
-collapse/bowtie(but this happens with many other kitres too)
-difficult to launch (ive heard some are more difficult than others)
-not great for low wind


I feel like there is a bad side or something that most arc owners dont tell people. This may just be me. I just want to hear both sides.

Arcs have been some of my favorite kites. Usually once you are launched, they fly till you land them. Launching difficulties usually arise from improper inflation and shifty winds at launch. They will be less dependable if you are flying in too light winds. You will get bowties and inverts if you are rolling them around on the ground.

So no big secret negatives. I expect to set my goal of breaking 70 mph with an arc. Good winds forecast for Friday so we'll see.

I fly a ozone access and frenzy and just picked up a 16m venom. I have limited time to fly so longer set up means the venom may stay on the bag and ozones get used. Probably only extra 5 minutes on setup and pack up though... auto zenith is pretty cool for a new arc user.... just my 2 cents...

i never liked the scorpion and sold mine pretty soon after buying it but some people loved themso it might have just been me

hey carl why didnt you like the scorpion.

wicked awesome gust munching ability. you can take a big kite out in big winds and feel relativly comfortable

Okay I may re-hash some things others have said but here are a few things:
- overall arcs work best in the moderate to high end of their wind range - especially good on the high end. On low end they are a lot of work and at the point when you need to user a blower to inflate and then really work the bar a lot there are other kites that are just quicker to set up and deliver more power. So if you get one as a light wind kite you may not like it. Personally I used to work my big arcs in light wind but eventually was getting carpel tunnel from working the bar so much that other kites just give steadier power at the very bottom end of the range.
- Setting up in really high gusty winds you need to get your set up routine down to an art - work the angles to minimize the bridles flapping around a lot and twisting before launch. Winter seems to be the hardest with intense gusts plus the kite sliding left and right and easier for lines to get a little tangle just before launch. But if you know what you are doing those little tangles are rare.
- there are any number of things that can happen on a launch that will cause a bad launch but those things generally happen because of a rushed set up or on a day that has extreme conditions when every type of kite can have a problem.
- slamming an arc down hard can blow out cells or bend a rod
- when a kite comes down because of light wind or swirly gusts they can be difficult to relaunch unless you practice. But with practice it will be very rare that they come down.
- out on ice by yourself is the most difficult to re-set for launch if needed - but any kite that get's into that bad of a situation is a pain to kick off your gear and re-set
- when self landing if you go to safety, it means re-setting the lines and making sure all is good to go before a relaunch - a little more time needed. Having a friend catch the kite to avoid letting the bar go is quickest way to manage for easy relaunch.
- some Scorpions were more prone to listless launch and most became better after some flying time and stretching the kites. I still have my 10 and 16 and the smaller kites 10s and 13s seemed to be the most finicky but now the 10 launches easy and I use it many times as my desert buggy kite.
- the Charger1 was a lot more sensitive to steering and for small sizes in a buggy it was was too twitchy unless you do a number of adjustments to tone it down.

There are many plusses
- with a bit of time on the kites all idiosyncrasies of launching and handling can be 95-99% avoided and dealt with easily
- there is a huge range of power that allows us to often rig and use one kite all day even when the wind ramps up or direction changes a bit where with the fixed bridle kites we may have had to re-rig sizes several times a day. There isn't as much intense pressure on your body riding powered and you don't need to take as many breaks so the kite stays in the air from launch to end of the day.
- I can use the same arc in the buggy, in winter and on water but size and power have different considerations for which arc would be best.
- traveling south I can take several arcs to cover a broad range packed up tightly in less space than taking my LEIs and I can be self sufficient on a beach launching and landing

.....probably some more things I'll think of - anything can have problems depending on your take. Having used fixed bridle for so many years I often curse them now in the winter when they just don't handle our crap gusty winds as easily - but I still use all types of kites it's just a matter of knowing what kite will work that day. All of them can be the best kite in the world one day and give you nothing but headaches a different day.

PS- if you do get a Scorpion 13 set it up on a long throw bar.

if i do get a scorpion i think it will be a 13 or 16. i dont know yet

I am looking for a landboard kite. my wind is 7mph and up. I am not restricting the kite i want to any kite but i do want to try some arcs, especially the scorpions and venoms, but I also want to try the twister and and the manta

my 2 cents-
good- huge wind range and especially good at the high end of the range
bad- not that great for low winds, as everyone has mentioned they are a lot of work in low winds and need larger area to build apperant wind
good- super stable great for learning the other side of powered movement- ie board, skis, etc.
bad- have to learn the launch and landing but once you have it ti is easy, because of the launching landing i will seldom put my kite down for a break so kite stays up all day makes taking a leak a little tricky:shocked2:
good- excellent gust munchers
bad- do not do well on the "reverse"gusts or lulls if the kite is not already moving will tend to "fall" out which can result in the twist or invert- again once familiar with handling not a big deal but annoying

Overall i like flying my arcs over any other kites- i just feel safer under an arc then under foils- big means slow and you can definetly feel the bar pressure as to where the kites is in flight. I think the good flight qualities of the arcs is also the downside of the arcs. what helps them with gusts and stability is the very nature of their inefficiencies old c kite design
Scott

i dont try to fly my arcs below 10 mph unless it is a very clean wind (seabreeze) also fyi i have found that in 10-15 mph i will tend to use my 13m and then get real excited when it gets close to 20 mph and then the 19m goes up. I can whip the smaller kite around more generating more power and then when the wind is high enough i just want a big sail for softer landings and float

I'll throw my thoughts in. Along with everything previously mentioned,
I keep my spars in the kites and also I leave the bar and lines attached as well. So I can have my arcs in the air in ridiculously short amount of time. I LOVE that. But that requires a touch of thought on pack down.
One note about the depower range, it is Huge like everyone says, but it's not "on/off". It's a "linear" depower feel. I know this sounds confusing, but when you move the bar out, it progressively depowers. Not like most LEI's that will be more instantaneous depower. Not a problem, just a note.
One super great aspect that is not spoken about is "unhooked" performance. I mostly wave ride, and have unknowingly found That arcs are insane for unhooked wave ridding. It's because of their stability and auto zenith. When you unhook, They just sit there so well behaved. I'm not much of a "freestyle" type of rider, but it's even got me unhooking and doing rolls with twin tips. It's a super fun new aspect to my ridding. Along with the stability, if you mess up while your unhooked and let go of the bar, the kite just auto zeniths.
BUT, I HATE relaunch if it does go down. I guess you figure it out, but I can't seem to!
One more down side (it might just be me) but I can't jump as high with my arcs as I can with either my flysurfer's or LEI's. I kinda think you need to fully be on the upper end of arcs to really get them to launch.
Oh, one more down side, they suck in rain. If they get heavy from the rain, the fly horrible.
But all in all, they are great kites!

Brand new arc user here, having flown my 18m Guerilla a grand total of 3 times. Here are the bad things from my perspective:

1) Good for gusts, bad for direction-changey wind - on setup Saturday the kite was flopping 20˚ to either side and it was nearly impossible to keep the lines on top of the kite, which is critical. Once in the air the direction changes would power up my kite without warning, but that would happen with any kite (and I was learning how to fly it, so I was all over the place, obviously).

2) Requires methodical setup - All depowers do, IMO, but you basically just can't launch unless you do it right. Carl has a killer post about how to do it right here (thanks, carltb):



3) Inflating sucks. I now bring a leafblower, but others have better, lighter solutions. Without an inflated kite, you might as well be this guy:


4) Deflating and packing up is sort of challenging. I'm sure you get better at it, but the first 3 times I felt like I was wrestling a waterbed.

5) Tangles turn ugly quick -- I noticed that it's not hard to get a line wrapped around on the wrong side of a bowtie, invert or spar, which can keep some power when it shouldn't be there. I'm pretty sure the newer models (mine's a 2003) have fixed a lot of the issues I have with mine (ball stoppers, lighter safety leader, etc..)

6) Older stuff seems to almost require mods. Pages and pages of arc control bar (and little kite) mods all over the place. I think that's partly because they're fun to mess with but also because you can get better performance out of the kite by going away from the stock setup.

So that's my first impression, hope it helps.

Oh, and I was talking to Van about LEI vs. Arcs and we were discussing the tendency of LEI's to "pop" on loose lines when you get a lull or direction change (which can obviously send you for a Superman). How does the Arc do with big lulls and "pops?" I have yet to experience the pleasure of being supermanned by the Arc.

Oh yeah, and I had one hell of a time reverse launching the Guerilla on a nose-down crash. Could be a tuning issue, but with the kite fully depowered on the trim strap I must've grabbed 3 feet of rear line and it never did want to reverse launch. Probably just user error but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Reverse launch is the same scenario as a stall. You have to be fully powered to do either. You crippled your reverse launch with so much front line taken in.

Arcs are about the only thing I can fly here. We have extremely gusty wind.My fb luffs half ofthe time after a jump and about every 5 minutes or so of just general flying it luffs. My arc rarely luffs and I can barely feel the gusts.My last session was 1 1/2 hours and the kite luffed once and I was able to recover before it hit the ground.

F-arcs are low wind machines. Feyd got to 40mph in sub 10mph winds with a 1600 f-arc. They can beat a flysurfer speed 3 on an upwind run and have more float and glide than a speed 3, and they came out over 10 years ago.:o

Arc tech varies widely. I like my Scorps, but the P2 is so smooth it makes the Scorpion seem harsh by comparison. Phantoms and P2s will inflate at ground level in stall. My P2 15m cheerfully flies very under-inflated. The Scorpion is a beast if it's under-inflated.

While the depower is huge on these kites understand that it has limits. If you have too much depower in your bar you can depower the kite so far you loose steering control. The steering lines droop dramatically and do nearly nothing when you pull on them. You might be able to use this to get home in a pinch flying the kite as a single line, but you would never want to fly the kite with this much depower.

Arcs are not good low wind machines. I have had some success doing this, but you need very low rolling resistance and a lot of room ( think beach at low tide or dry lake), and enough skill to ride the apparent wind. Arcs are heavy.

That said, I love my Arcs and plan to buy more. :-)

Philip

I have to wonder why the Scorpian ?

I didn't get a lot of time on the Scorp' but it didn't draw me back to arcs. It was the 1st bridled arc and had a habit of spanking you if you made a mistake. The Synergy is much more refined ( read forgiving ) and was the arc that brought me back. It's not right to judge all arcs on the Scorpian. IMHO.

When I 1st tried arcs it was the Farc. Too fast and my skills were short. Then my 13 and 18 Guerillas were too slow. I moved to Flysurfers. When I tried the Synergy I was back in love and it flew just right, for ME .

Whenever I think about turning from arcs again it is due to the ground handling issues / time. + to a lesser degree it's lack of very low wind performance. I have other kites I use to avoid the agro of the arc but when my 15 is flying it's the only kite I would choose.

You'd have to do a search on "Sofaking" if you want to research all the negatives! :P

er... sorry, I meant that the other way I think I did it the right direction (front lines == longer), but I probably had it tuned too poorly.

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob Reverse launch is the same scenario as a stall. You have to be fully powered to do either. You crippled your reverse launch with so much front line taken in.

Arcs don't reverse launch well.

I move to the edge and try to relaunch that way. Like an LEI.

Arcs don't relaunch well from the water if the kite is damp. It folds in half, and the wingtips want to stick together. When it's dry, it will relaunch almost on its own. Mine was damp from the air being damp and gave me a hard time relaunching two days ago.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner Arcs don't reverse launch well. I move to the edge and try to relaunch that way. Like an LEI.

Yeah, I guess it really is more of a roll on its side and launch.

As far as water relaunch, that has more to do with how well powered the kite is than whether it is wet or not. Add wet and underpowered and you could have trouble getting off the water.

The whole "reverse launch" threw me. Modern Arcs don't reverse launch at all so I'm guessing we're talking relaunch from a LE down position which entails getting the kite to roll over.

The other option is as Bladerunner described.

Proletariat if you ride in gusty shifty winds you will find the standard PL recommended launch procedure is at best frustrating and at worst useless. Clamshell to hot launch is the easiest, most effective launch method IMO.

Markite summed Arcs up nicely.

Man this thread really has me thinking about the Phantoms in the closet......I'd somehow nearly forgotten about the gust munching and now thinking back and comparing I recall loads of "#@%$#!e! hang on!" moments flying the Psycho 13 - moments that I may not have experienced with an Arc on the same day......it's just the setup that gets me. Sure I could leave spars and bars all in place but there's still the textbook launch with little room for error compared to flopping a bridled foil out, shaking some lines and tugging till it inflates.

If it wasn't such a pain in the arse trudging back and forth through snow to set kites and lines the conversation might be moot for me.

Quote:

Originally posted by macboy Man this thread really has me thinking about the Phantoms in the closet......I'd somehow nearly forgotten about the gust munching and now thinking back and comparing I recall loads of "#@%$#!e! hang on!" moments flying the Psycho 13 - moments that I may not have experienced with an Arc on the same day......it's just the setup that gets me. Sure I could leave spars and bars all in place but there's still the textbook launch with little room for error compared to flopping a bridled foil out, shaking some lines and tugging till it inflates. If it wasn't such a pain in the arse trudging back and forth through snow to set kites and lines the conversation might be moot for me.

That sounds horrible. I don't want to see you trudging back and forth either. I think you should sell your small Phantoms to me. :-)

I want to help you, brother.

Philip

So Feyd, thanks for the advice. I could see how that technique would be better than walking the lines 100 times, but I have a quick question:

From clamshell to hot launch, seems like I should be pulling on the bottom edge front line to roll the top edge up and catch wind, right?

Also, the pain of the Guerilla 18m is that there is NO way you could leave the spars in and roll up and still fit in a bag. It's like 4 feet wide at least. I have to fold it in half then roll it to even fit it in a hockey bag.

All my arcs from Phantom forward could be stored in the bag with spars. Were Guerrillas not equipped with the same expandable bag?

The original Guerillas had that fantastic Rocket Launcher bag. I loved it so much I held onto it through one kite sale but let it go through the next. I loved that bag. Not sure about the GII bags.

I don't know why everyone's hating on arc's low ends... granted, I don't have enough money to fly a FS S3 or the like, but often times I'm the only one on the water with my 19m syn. I'm 175lbs and ride a 145 twin tip. I'm comfortable on water w/ it in about 10 knots.