I want to share some concerns about the Bigfoot. My buggy partner has had many parts on his BigFoot break -- side rails and head portion of the down tube. He wrote Peter Lynn and received a reply that acknowledged that parts of the buggy were under designed. Today I was several miles up the beach on some small, soft bumps when my down tube broke at or next to the weld. Not long before I was moving down the beach in excess of 20 mph. If the down tube had broken during the trip down the beach and stuck in the sand, the wreck would have been most unpleasant. I got home by making my broken buggy into a tandem with my friends BigFoot. Bottom line is that I am only 150 pounds doing reasonable stuff with the buggy and it structurally fails. So I buy a new down tube and still have a buggy I can't trust to stay in one piece. Under designed? I think it is.

I will give you the answer I got when I asked a similar question about the XR+ on Racekites: why do you think they call them Peter Thin?

I am surprised that the company admitted they were underdesigned. Shows they are not from North America. I guess if someone gets really badly hurt PL will go the way Synchros bicycle parts.
S

This was on the Peter Lynn Website next to a picture of a Bigfoot jumping several feet off the ground in what looked like dunes.


"Bugging not only became possible on soft sand; the creature does not stop for anything .
Rolling over soft dunes, tricks like wheelies, slides, reverses and 360's are all possible."

Sorry to hear your bug is broke, and glad to hear your OK. I have bent the down tube, but never broke in half.

As I tell customers when they ask about buggies, These (PL, Flexi, etc) are the beginner/ entry level bugs and these (MG, Apexx, etc) are the next step up.
Dont buy a 1/2 ton PU if your going to haul 10 yards of rock, that why they make dump trucks.
Libre, Apexx, MG, make small buggies that will out perform and out last the PL's. Simple cruising up and down the beach or from one end of the lake bed to the other is fine and that is what the PL bugs are for. If you want more or demand more, it will cost you.

Quote:

Originally posted by southpadreburt This was on the Peter Lynn Website next to a picture of a Bigfoot jumping several feet off the ground in what looked like dunes. "Bugging not only became possible on soft sand; the creature does not stop for anything . Rolling over soft dunes, tricks like wheelies, slides, reverses and 360's are all possible."

In a TV commercial here in Seattle, they show a 19 year old, long legged, high healed blond in a bikini opening up the door of a Lamborghini, and she says she will help you get into your new car.
Nobody knows who the heck she is at the dealership, and they are tired of telling the public, she doesn't work here.
Then again, that one girl met here french model boyfriend on the internet......

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid (MG, Apexx, etc) are the next step up.

Don't forget the indestructible Texas made buggies :D

I know Jeff was just oversimplifying but I would put VTT and libre in that mid category with Apexx, and MG among others at the top level.
Who sells those Libres now anyway?:wee:

Many years ago, Peter Lynn was the only real choice on the market. As a condition of this I had a personal relationship with the aluminum boat builder outside of Forest Grove. I was in there so many times that they knew be by first name, even teased me. "Oh... back again I see..."

The reality of owning a Peter Lynn Buggy is that they break. And the more you ride them, the more they break. They were designed to be easy to break down with limited tools and then light weight enough to pack in luggage for a plane trip. Keep in Mind that the concept for this buggy came from an Island Country. Stands to reason.

I bought the first Libre buggy to hit the US. I have owned at least 5 Libre buggies since, I have never had one repaired!

End of story...

So if I wanted to salvage the bigfoot tires and move to a better buggy that was able to do the things the bigfoot is designed for what would it be? Beach, dunes and flats are all in the mix. Seems like most of the more expensive types are very heavy and do not pull apart for storage. Since I buggy often I might have out grown my fragile Bigfoot. Is there a buggy I can put the Bigfoot wheels on and have structural integrity?

Sorry Van, I had a moment there.
Bobby, which Libre are you talking about? Of course you are talking from experience right?
Lets see..... MG, I had 2 of them. Apexx, still got that one. Sysmic, this one will be gone by SOBB. Libre, got a hardcore, had a V-Max, Sprinter, and the Magestic (should have kept the Magestic).
Ivanpah, had one and got another with lots of alterations. PL bigfoot, sold it. PL XR, sold that. Had the VTT buggy for a bit, and the kitetrike, gave that away.

And I did forget the PTW buggy which is also a step up.

Sorry Bobby, but the Apexx I have was broke and fixed and broke and fixed again. The 2 MG's I had, one was in a real bad wreck and only needed a little straitening, in my opinion, the MG is. And yours, isn't. :P

Quote:

Originally posted by southpadreburt So if I wanted to salvage the bigfoot tires and move to a better buggy that was able to do the things the bigfoot is designed for what would it be? Beach, dunes and flats are all in the mix. Seems like most of the more expensive types are very heavy and do not pull apart for storage. Since I buggy often I might have out grown my fragile Bigfoot. Is there a buggy I can put the Bigfoot wheels on and have structural integrity?

My recommendation for riding the terrains that you describe is a Libre, be it the hardcore, full race or vmax. There are others that will work for ya too. I ride the same conditions that you are talking about and I am quite pleased with my buggy. I may also add that front suspension works great in bumpy situations.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid The 2 MG's I had, one was in a real bad wreck and only needed a little straitening, in my opinion, the MG is. And yours, isn't. :P

And which one was that??

So having just purchased a downtube, fork and bigfoot wheels for my flexifoil so I don't have to stand around and watch others during high tide.....How much do I need to worry about this? This was a big debate for me...Purchase this or save and get one of Van's. My flexifoil seems like it's built like a brick sh*thouse...Just don't want/need to get hurt cause I'm just starting to act crazy on the bug and speed is something I'm looking forward to in Wildwood. Also some power sliding...Should I immediately go out and have someone beef up the welding joints?

Quote:

Is there a buggy I can put the Bigfoot wheels on and have structural integrity?

I've had a Libre Vmax for a few years now and done a heap of km's in it over varying terrain and not had one problem with it. The rear axle takes 20mm bolts - you may have to swap over your bearings if they're for 12mm or 15mm....

My first buggy was Big Mike's Frankenbuggy, which is a rear axle from a PL Bigfoot with a VTT rail kit, and a PL Comp XR front end. What you might consider is getting a VTT rail kit and seeing if Van will make you a front end (downtube and front fork) to go with it since you're lacking confidence in PL buggy parts.

Van (VTT) has great buggy stuff and is super awesome to work with. He has helped me out with my last 2 big buggy related purchases/projects.

I'm pretty confident that your Bigfoot rear axle is not going to break too easily and you could probably work out a pretty decent bug by just replacing all the other parts with VTT stuff, not to mention probably saving a good amount by not purchasing a completely new buggy.

And btw the Bigfoot back axle has 20mm bolts for sure.

Hi Burt sorry for you'r loss.
There are so many options, I guess you're budget will dictate the path.
If you have not demoed or seen up close the buggy's mentioned.
Attending Ivanpah (NABX) would help I'm sure most if not all the rated
buggys will be on the lake bed, some times you just have to sit and take spin
to know it's right for you. There will be a wealth of knowledge and gear.
Side note Bob and I will be at SPI starting 4/19 your welcome to run my big foot thru
the dunes.

Quote:

Originally posted by southpadreburt So if I wanted to salvage the bigfoot tires and move to a better buggy that was able to do the things the bigfoot is designed for what would it be? Beach, dunes and flats are all in the mix. Seems like most of the more expensive types are very heavy and do not pull apart for storage. Since I buggy often I might have out grown my fragile Bigfoot. Is there a buggy I can put the Bigfoot wheels on and have structural integrity?

Van has several different models for varying riding styles all of which can be run with big foots. As to deconstruction, I break a Stinger down to front wheel & fork, seat & rails, axle, and rear wheels in less than 10 min every day and carry it with all of the rest of my equipment in a Mini.

Big kid is wrong when he puts Flexifoil in the same category with Peter Lynn. I have owned both and Flexfoil is way more solid. There is not a weld on my flexi that was not there when Wolfwolfee originallly bought it.
A friend, ex boss, was a bike designer at Rockie Mountain Bicycles, I showed him my PL fork after it broke. He said if that happened to a bike fork, their insurance company would have insisted it be recalled.
The Peter Lynn web site sums it up nicely: "Peter Lynn built for life." "Guarantied for six months."
S

For my first buggy and so far most liked is the libre vmax. I have tried others but they are so heavy and large they are not worth lugging around. My vmax weighs around 50ish pounds and I have gone almost 40 mph in it. I'm hopeing for that 62 mph mark. It takes bumps well and isn't going to break the bank like the hardcore majestic MG and other brands. I know they are good brands guys but lets face it they are expensive.

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Big kid is wrong when he puts Flexifoil in the same category with Peter Lynn. S

You may be right, I will have to look a bit deeper into the Flexi to be sure.
I based my opinion on 2 customers that wanted to trade then in for something better. One had a rear axle that needed an extra wheel in the middle to support the bend, the other needed to be rewelded completely due to all the cracks. They didnt seem to be the type of extreme buggiers that would beat up a good buggy, who knows, they may have put a Flexi seat on a PL for all I know. Those 2 trade in were not left in my hands, they both got new Libre buggies and took the non-trade ins with them.

I have to suspect that the PL Bigfoot in question is an early model with thinner wall and smaller diameter tubing. PL was cursed for being first. Look at the pictures of buggies in the early 90's and they appear to be made of beach chairs and bicycle parts. Kites then were slugs like sputniks with a L/D of 3 or 4 and could not pull like modern kites. Not sure they envisioned speeds over 80 mph or guys like the Flexifoil team jumping off ramps.

Modern Bigfoots are built with the same gauge and diameter tubing as the XR+ (and parts are interchangeable) and they are tough as well as being among the most portable. Sure my Ivanpah is tougher but it can also be used as an effin' ship anchor and is just about as portable. On the beach in PL buggies I have hit tidal rivlets (trenches) at speeds enough to forcefully eject my 200+ lb body a good distance and never suffered a crack or failure. And the back axle comes off in thirty seconds with no tools. Such an elegant design.

I have found some cracked welds in the PL headstocks in both brand new and used parts that had been ridden hard in rough fields but these were QC issues and not design issues and were always taken care of by PL including shipping from Europe without hesitation.

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid Sorry Van, I had a moment there. Bobby, which Libre are you talking about? Of course you are talking from experience right? Lets see..... MG, I had 2 of them. Apexx, still got that one. Sysmic, this one will be gone by SOBB. Libre, got a hardcore, had a V-Max, Sprinter, and the Magestic (should have kept the Magestic). Ivanpah, had one and got another with lots of alterations. PL bigfoot, sold it. PL XR, sold that. Had the VTT buggy for a bit, and the kitetrike, gave that away. And I did forget the PTW buggy which is also a step up. Sorry Bobby, but the Apexx I have was broke and fixed and broke and fixed again. The 2 MG's I had, one was in a real bad wreck and only needed a little straitening, in my opinion, the MG is. And yours, isn't. :P

Jeff I gave you an out but you kicked the veer hard so I'll respond. I'm not sure what experience you refer to, needing to remember names of buggies but I've owned PL, Flexi, Ivanpah and now own a lIbre as well. I'm not sure anyone would argue that Libre is nice enough to be called "mid-grade". But you are the distributor now so who am I to correct you?

I know some have had issues with the back axle wheel attachment on Apexx buggies but I have almost 1500 miles on mine with no metal work whatsoever. And trust me, there are lots of 60+ mph runs and sliding sideways on Ivanpah mixed in there on disc wheels. Not to mention it broke the speed record with Fast Arie in the seat. The only issue I think It's ever had is a broken axle bolt before I got it. It was loose at the time.

The Rear Axle wheel attachment point is the only weak point in the Apexx buggies. Other than that, they are some of the best designed buggies on the market. I would be very happy to own one. IMO, they are far superior to the Libre buggies in ride, build quality and performance. This is no way a bash against Libre, those too are very nice buggies and are a huge step up from the introductory buggies such as the PL and Flexi bugs.

That being said, I have a Comp XR+ buggy that has been in my arsenal for over 6 years with hard riding on Ivanpah and many other lake beds around are area, as well as many runs and lessons at our local park. This buggy has been flipped, tossed, banged beat and even used as a mock-up for some of the prototype accessories that I have built. It is still in top shape with no weld or structural issues. For a buggy that costs half as much as a Libre and about 1/5 the cost of an Apexx, I feel it is still the best bang for the buck and will last well beyond your investment dollars.

About a year ago, PL did have a shipment of downtubes that had some structural issues. To my knowledge, all of these were replaced free of charge by PL. The issue was some small miniscule cracks that were around the top and bottom bearing race areas where the front fork bolted onto. If this was the issue you had with your BF or Comp XR+ buggy, contact the dealer you purchased it from and they should be able to get you a replacement.

Yes, the PL buggies are not built to the same standards and construction as the Libre, Ivanpah, Apexx or most of the high dollar race buggies, but they are still built very well for the price, are super easy to transport and should you ever need, easy to repair and get replacement parts for.

I have owned several PL Buggies and have never regretted owning / purchasing any of them.

I have really enjoyed my Bigfoot on frequent trips to the beach and dunes. The light weight and easy removal of the axel make this bug very user friendly for storage and transportation. When rolled over or stuck in the dunes with deep blow sand the buggy can be easily managed. We only use the "flat" to get to the 3D terrain. This is not to say that there is any thing wrong with "flat" but the Bigfoot is marketed as a all terrain buggy. The price for the Bigfoot is very reasonable but I would pay a little more for stronger components. Fixing a structural failure is easy(after a long walk) but the accident it may cause at speed is my concern. It's a great buggy at a reasonable price but may not be built to deliver what it is marketed for. I have two Bigfoot buggies and my buggy partners ride the same.

If any of you havent figured it out yet, just because Im a distributor or dealer or an average joe consumer, means nothing when it comes to making the right choice for YOU. I have told a lot of people to by a PL or Apexx or any other buggy, kite, board, or what ever. I am not going to shove one brand over another down anyones throat.
Each buggy has its place and is able to do different things that others can or can not do. How many buggies have been bought and sold because they are not what the customer wanted? For what ever reason they are either a great buggy or a piece of crap. They are high end or mid grade. When you say Apexx which one are you talking about? When you say Libre, which one are you talking about? I know for a fact that there is only a hand full of guys in the USA that have rode the Libre Magestic, which is high end, mid grade, or what?
Each to there own. I just made a general statement and put the buggies in 2 groups, in all respect to each company that makes the bugs, there should be at least 6 categories that they can fall into.

I can pick apart any buggy, and talk up any buggy. That means nothing, I have broke the best of them and the worst of them have been great bugs. If you are hard on a buggy, in time they will all show signs of neglect. In the end, it comes down to how much you want to spend and what makes you happy.


And for what its worth, I think the PTW Hero is by far the top buggy compared to any of the others. The quality of build, the pride in the finish, the reason for the build, and what it represented for the builder. To me that's a high end buggy, everything else is just a buggy.

Well put Jeff,

We have not had any issues with the PL Bigfoot as of yet. I do not personally ride one, but the ones we have sold have not had any issues that we were made aware of. It is a great buggy for the price. I still think of them as a more Entry type ride, just like the XR, just has bigger tires so that it goes over sand a little better.

Could you show us some pics of your buggy as well as the parts that broke? I am interested in seeing just where it broke, etc.

For the record, big buggies can be broken down and stuffed into a four door car with no problem. I have an MG Croozer and I break it down into the axle, fork w/downtube attached, two back bigfoot wheels and the seat/side rail assembly and stuff it into the trunk/backseat of my Saturn. I can put it together and break it down in 10-15 minutes, tops.

Now that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to be able to transport it fully assembled or that I like doing it but it can be and is done by me quite often.

I contacted the Peter Lynn Himself website with this:

I have had a blast with the bigfoot buggy for four years. What I would like to tell you is that there is basic flaw with the downtube

headset and cracking. I bought four of them and have had them repaired by a welder many times. The metal in the bearing cup is too

thin. Once a hairline crack starts it quickly expands until the headset breaks apart. I now put stainless hose clamps around the upper

and lower cup as a safety measure.

Thank you and sorry for the rant.

and got this reply:

Gidday Brad,
Indeed a problem,- or at least I recognise it as such even though most users never experience it I agree with you in that it's not a

fatigue or welding problem, but rather one of the loading being too great for the material section at that joint. But even if it's a

1% problem, it should be fixed , and the solution, in my view, is sourcing thicker wall downtube material- which we have singularly

failed to manage so far. This is not, and never has been a matter of cost- but of availability. Because it's to some extent a weld

effected zone condition, a fix may be just to stuff a tight fitting sleeve inside the downtube in the effected area- but nothing

suitable is currently available.
In no way is your email a rant- it's a fair and necessary drawing of our attention to a problem that we need to fix and should be able

to.
Thanks for your concern - and for taking the trouble to present it to us.
Please accept my assurance that we will take this seriously and find an answer
Cheers,
Peter


That was September 12, 2012. I bought that PL Bigfoot buggy from Angus in 2009. He was kind enough to replace the first downtube and

smooth out a rough delivery and other problems. I am on my fourth downtube, second fork, have outright broken a siderail and cracked

the bolt-on ends of 2 siderails. My next door neighbor, Pat, is on his second fork. Now Burt has broken his downtube at the kink. That

is one I haven't done yet! Burt is a cautious buggier. His downtube is the only one I've seen with a stamp from china on it. That may

have something to do with it, but I don't know. Right now I am running Bigfoot lights on a flexifoil wide axle and siderails, PL

bigfoot downtube and fork. One of the footpeg tubes is cracked but I have a SS clamp on it. I also put SS clamps around the upper and

lower bearing cups of the headset as a precaution. So far that downtube is good. I have had it since around December of 2012.

I checked my windsurfing\buggy log. I buggied 33 times between Jan 1 and March 30 2013. They are usually at least 2 hour sessions. I

am 6'2" 210 and ugly.

If you would like pictures of a bunch of broken and rewelded and then broken again PL parts, let me know.

Top smooth edge did not separate until the front tire and fork were removed to make a tandem. Note the break was not on a weld on the bottom surface of the downtube.