In light of Jeff's accident and now Josh's, I have been researching and experimenting with different AQR setups. I have tried the two popular wichards and both have hung up at certain angles, one more than the other and also had issues with tangling so I have found this unreliable. but I have come accross this system which looks promising
http://vimeo.com/51314932
http://www.spiritofsky.de/content/de/Splitter-MK-Race.html (no longer available at Spirit of Sky)
http://www.alienbuggy.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=39&a...
http://www.spiritofsky.de/products/de/Zubehoer/-9679-Trapeze...
for anyone interested in the MK Splitter (shown in the first post of this thread) they are no longer available in the shop (spiritofsky.de) however one of the developers Gerd Tschampel of Germany has around 20 units available for private sale, you can contact him at gtsch@gmx.de
I have been using mine for a year now and I am very pleased with it. no tangles or binding. however I haven't been in a situation where I needed the auto release yet, but I am confident it will do what it is designed to do.

That looks pretty cool. Is it tethered to a magnet with a metal plate on the seat? Couldn't read the german text but it looked like it did.

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Originally posted by pokitetrash That looks pretty cool. Is it tethered to a magnet with a metal plate on the seat? Couldn't read the german text but it looked like it did.

Got the impression that the "magnet" portion as a quirky Google translation. Thought the system was tethered similar to:

Auto Quick Release setup

Automatic Quick Release

ATB,
Sam

Scott (Flyguy0101) were just talking about this very thing this morning....I told him I was excited to meet Jeff and see his system first hand. He told me he purchased a wichard & pulley and I am thinking about doing the same thing...sure that is a lot of money but I feel that after reading about Jeff's and now Josh's accidents that this cost is about equivalent to 2 minutes in the ER or any other type of surgery.

Why don't some harness manufactures just make these available when you purchase the harness...instead of their own version? I realize de-power is a different story.

There is a company that makes a quick release setup. The company's name is Libre.

I have been experimenting with the same type of setup as Jeff's, with the same wichards, and I had some trouble getting them to release at certain angles, but this system is better than nothing and I commend Jeff for coming up with it. I Like the system above better for a couple reasons, 1) it eliminates the troublesome wichards and 2) it releases the strop eliminating the possibility of the pulley taking some teeth with it.

also you need to get the connection point of the release strap as close to the kids as possible to limit the amount of exit from buggy and keeping that consistent in any direction.

Hopefully I will be receiving this system soon and I will post my comments and/or video

Well nothing is 100% safe...I mean we are strapping huge kites to our bodies and having them pull us down the beach, over water and on snow etc so enough said right there.
I feel that any system other then being hooked right in is going to be 98 more effective then nothing.

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Originally posted by BEC Well nothing is 100% safe...I mean we are strapping huge kites to our bodies and having them pull us down the beach, over water and on snow etc so enough said right there. I feel that any system other then being hooked right in is going to be 98 more effective then nothing.

I am not dissing anyone here, just always looking to improve and share what I have learned to hopefully help others. I didn't mean any offense.

None taken here I was just stating a fact that most people think we are a little nuts anyway when you tell them what you/we do...

I enjoy reading up on ideas people have to help us all be a little safer...

A few key points to the QR that, IMHO, need to be implemented one way only. If these points are changed the system will not work.
Not to say anyone has done it wrong, but with 2 years of R and D I think I figured it out.
The biggest point is the strap from the snap shackle has to connect to the buggy DIRECTLY UNDER YOUR A HOLE. As this is the only place that will pull the QR the best. Not 2' in front of you. You will have to weld an extention onto the downtube that goes under your butt, were the strap is connected. Ask my son how many times I used the electric hoist to jerk him out of the buggy before we modified the downtube.
As for the question of, does it work? All I can say is the kite has left me a couple dozen times and I have not left the seat, or will I ever again.

Jeff, I said kids you say a-hole both are in same vicinity, maybe nobody has used the term kids for ummm nutsack Jeff, you have a year on me and what you have shown me is no doubt way better that I have been able to come up with, I just had some trouble with the wichards, not much but while testing in my elaborate testing facility I set up in my garage (side note*** my wife walked in on this and you can imagine what she was thinking......S&M? ) anyway I did have a little trouble with the wichards but still worked very well, better than anything else I could dream up. I am going to try the Splitter-MK Race setup for the two main reasons I stated above, I really like the idea of the pulley staying with you. I'm not sure I like the super magnet part though, I will probably do as you did and connect it to the s-neck below the seat.

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Originally posted by BEC Why don't some harness manufactures just make these available when you purchase the harness...instead of their own version?

Any safety system also has on the other side of the scales what can go wrong with it.

The amount of R&D and legal caveat-ridden verbiage to sufficiently insulate a manufacturer to the comfort level required by their insurance carriers would be mind boggling.

We are still a species that requires warnings about using hair dryers in the shower. That had to require some kind of precedent.

Also, manufacturers won't devote resources to product development when there hasn't been a demonstrated consumer demand for said product. Kite fliers are a niche market, buggy riders a smaller niche within that, and riders looking for a QR is yet a smaller sample within that demographic.

ATB,
Sam

I am curious on how this really works in real life situations. I see the good thoughts behind it and do not doubt there is a use for some sort of safety to help prevent more injuries. I see the mechanics of the device working like they are suppose to ... here is my curiosity ... throw in the human factor. The pilot begins to lift out of the seat .. the device releases ... does the pilot let go of the handles???? Human nature is when your holding something and it pulls you grip and pull harder. So the device worked but will the pilot let go and stay in the seat? That is the big question for me.

In the beginning of my buggy riding I had a Libre race. At the time is was one of the better buggies on the market. Not to say anything about the Libre specific as my point is the seat which most all buggies have the same issue. You simply sit in the buggy seats and it is possible to lift you straight up out of the seat. I was constantly getting pulled out of this style seat (it would be the same result on any buggy with same style seating PL, Flexi, Early MG, etc, etc again nothing bad against the Libre .. its just what I had). This all changed when I got my new buggy and it has curved side rails to hold you in. This has saved my butt many times. Instead of getting ripped out of the buggy it picks the whole buggy up, or spins it around in the direction of the kite etc. So finally to my point I am curious if it wouldnt be better to actually strap the pilot into the buggy. So the 2 are actually one. In small light buggies I can see this is probably not the answer, but folks in bigger bugs ?? Another point ... how many times have you seen someone in a small bug (PL, Flexi) actually holding onto one side rail to help stay in the bug? I have seen it a lot If they were connected to the buggy so they did not have to hold on with one hand and could fly with both hands would this be safer?
K got my 2 cents in. Give PKF something to talk about today

Dino,
Good question. here is the answer from me.
I have a strap that can be adjusted from very short to very long. We had that problem in the beginning with what distance is ok to travel up and down? While the kite is aloft it is all aver the sky and thus there are different lengths the strap has to be in order not to release or release. so the problem was solved by making the anchor point of the strap to the buggy as I stated earlier, under your a hole. With it at that spot the distance you have to raise up is basically the same in any direction you happen to leave the bug. it took a while to get the right amount of slack in the strap to make life comfy. to short and the slightest amount of raise and the kite is gone. to much slack and you exit the bug and end up on your face as the strap holds you back. with that problem I use a cheep d ring for my keys, which will brake with about 50lbs of pull while the QR will release with only 5-10lb of pull.
the weight of the bug is used to deploy the QR. you ask about strapping into the bug.... ok think about what is happening,
you weigh 200lbs, the buggy weighs 70lbs, what makes you think that the extra 70lbs or what ever it weighs is enough to keep you on the ground? I was lifted 30 feet up, Josh was airborn 15 feet. I dout if the bug weighed 150lbs in my case would have mattered at all. All I know is I dont want to go up with the bug and then come down bottom side up.
I was lifted with a buggy while I was strapped in thinking the same thing, the added weight of the bug is going to keep me on the ground. I was flying with Fletcht in a soccer park and as I made my turn before reaching the goal post net thing, I was lifted up with the buggy still under my rear and I spun around and landed 10 feet behind the goal post thing and smacked up against a 55 gal garbage barrel. end of day, dont like this either.

So when the kite is released it is gone in a split second, you dont have to hang on for dear life. I have mine set up to raise up a few inches, that way the kite is gone and I am not disturbed at all by any surprise other than the system just saved my life again.

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ here is my curiosity ... throw in the human factor. The pilot begins to lift out of the seat .. the device releases ... does the pilot let go of the handles???? Human nature is when your holding something and it pulls you grip and pull harder. So the device worked but will the pilot let go and stay in the seat? That is the big question for me.

Yes this can be an issue. I personally still ride with my hands high on the handles (a habit I need to break since I am now usually hooked into a harness) I think if you forced a habit to hold the handles lower and relaxed (the lower the better) and kept your thumbs straight and not wrapped around the handles then when the AQR is activated the handles should go into the brake position and that should give you time to decide weather or not you want to let go if they weren't ripped from your hands. I think how you grip the handles are very important in any case and one should be aware of this.

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ I see the mechanics of the device working like they are suppose to ... here is my curiosity ... throw in the human factor. The pilot begins to lift out of the seat .. the device releases ... does the pilot let go of the handles???? Human nature is when your holding something and it pulls you grip and pull harder. So the device worked but will the pilot let go and stay in the seat? That is the big question for me.

I think this has a lot to due with muscle memory.... how your body works when the human/ape brain shuts down and the lizard brain comes out to play. The other aspect is how we learn to hold our handles... which seems like it should be a simple thing, but...

One of the reasons, I like the Flexifoil Prolink handles is that they raise your grip on the handles a bit and give you a concave thumbrest on the top of the handle. Without all four fingers and the thumb wrapped about the shaft of the control handle, I think it's marginally easier to resist the automatic "death grip" reflex.

Without getting into the whole kite killer/no-kite killer debate, I think that also plays into developing a "love you like a 3rd cousin" but not a "till death do us part" relationship.

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Originally posted by DAKITEZ In the beginning of my buggy riding I had a Libre race. At the time is was one of the better buggies on the market. Not to say anything about the Libre specific as my point is the seat which most all buggies have the same issue. You simply sit in the buggy seats and it is possible to lift you straight up out of the seat. I was constantly getting pulled out of this style seat (it would be the same result on any buggy with same style seating PL, Flexi, Early MG, etc, etc again nothing bad against the Libre .. its just what I had). This all changed when I got my new buggy and it has curved side rails to hold you in. This has saved my butt many times. Instead of getting ripped out of the buggy it picks the whole buggy up, or spins it around in the direction of the kite etc. So finally to my point I am curious if it wouldnt be better to actually strap the pilot into the buggy. So the 2 are actually one. In small light buggies I can see this is probably not the answer, but folks in bigger bugs ?? Another point ... how many times have you seen someone in a small bug (PL, Flexi) actually holding onto one side rail to help stay in the bug? I have seen it a lot If they were connected to the buggy so they did not have to hold on with one hand and could fly with both hands would this be safer? K got my 2 cents in. Give PKF something to talk about today

I think, when you start grabbing onto the side rail of the smaller buggies, that's a find indicator that you have started holding down sufficient speed/power where are more speed-oriented buggy might be in order.

Strapping the pilot to the buggy has trade-offs. While it might prevent an OBE. You are implicitly signed the "till death do us part" contract. If there is sufficient wind to life you and the buggy, thing's probably won't end well either. Not sure what their exact strength is, but what if you snap one of more of the buckles on the straps holding the seat in place? All kinds of fun if your carrying lateral speed when you land with your butt now kissing the ground.

If you flip the buggy along any axis, at speed, you will rapidly exceed the design limitations of your body.... with the most likely victims being the neck or spine.

ATB,
Sam

When you drive your car, how do you hold the wheel? If you have a death grip on it you can handle the front tire blow out, or not.
What I am saying is that you dont have to death grip the handles, just hold them and relax. If you cant relax and lightly hold the handles my guess is you may well be a bit passed your comfort/skill level. Not that thats a bad thing but what fun is hanging on for dear life unless you are going over the cliff and the rope is got a bit to much slack in it. Besides, a couple of times I was pushing way to hard and trying to create an OBE and with a death grip had the handles ripped out of my hands, my pinky finger is still a little tender a few months later. My fault completely, but who gives a rip? I never left the bug. Neener Neener Neener, like that basketball player on that TV commercial who bats away paper and other things with the remark, not in my house, no OBE today.

Just to add my 2 cents, it used to be a nickel but I left 3 cents on the beach last Saturday. I have been giving these quick releases, strapping into a buggy, a lot of thought for quite awhile. After an incident Saturday at Manzanita I am back to square one. Winds were 18 -20 tide was just past high and the beach was soft. Kept working out to water line trying to find harder sand. The 2.8 was working but I was having trouble in the soft sand. Went to my 4.5, no longer had issues with soft sand. There was one short section of the beach where the wind was really rippin through, maybe 50 yards wide. Long story short, and the purpose of this post, coming back through that area, kite at about 11:00. Next thing I knew I was looking at my hardcore coming down on top of me, things kind of went slow motion. However it never did land on me, I landed about 15 feet away. My bell was rung, and I am not moving my shoulder much. BUT I am glad I walked away.
So, no, I would not want to be strapped into the buggy, stuff happens, and if I had a quick release, the buggy would of landed on me, I was still stropped in. The second time I landed the kite and I departed company.
Like I said, I am back to square one on this whole issue again. I also knew I was flying to overpowered for the space that I had. I think Weldngod said listen to the inner voice when it speaks to you, I was I just wasn't really paying attention to what the voice was saying.
Keep the conversation going, there are some good thoughts getting tossed around.

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Originally posted by fletcht stuff happens, and if I had a quick release, the buggy would of landed on me, I was still stropped in.

could you elaborate on this? do you mean a auto quick release? and if so why would the bug land on you? sorry my simple mind needs more detail to understand, thanks

..This is an appropriate response and positive post.

At $275 Euros..this 'Splitter' is an expensive device. Is it the best/safest/most reliable? Maybe.

I am suggesting an opportunity-in light of the recent accident- for all those who have a set up and perhaps posted their safety set ups before, or not at all.... to post or repost additional safety device systems/set ups again (or for the first time). For maybe not just those in a buggy..... but those on boards and such, also....?

I feel an AUTO set up(no human thinking to activate....like a set up in video of splitter) that self activates and releases is clearly by far the safest and quickest response as opposed to any hand activated ones for buggy riders. When you are yanked, it's already a little late to be grabbing at a release.

From relatively dirt cheap panic snaps...to ..chicken loops ..to wichards... this expensive Splitter...this post seems to invite and revisit an open discussion and show and tell (that can help make our sport safer with safety releases ?) for those who ride in normal or extreme conditions.


Bear in mind NO device is 100% safe and reliable.... Do NOT run out with any size kite in a hurricane because you have this or another safety release:shocked2:

Flying in dangerous conditions, flying overpowered, is often more of a factor to an 'incident' occurring. Storm Squalls, way too big a kite for occuring wind gust, loss of control,....but sometimes-something unexpected may just occur even flying 'smart' and cautious.


FYI...I fly without any safety release: FB on handles on a strop.... hooked and sometimes unhooked to a harness. I Have a panic snap I am considering incorporating...but not seriously yet.

My first goal of safety is not be overpowered in wild gusty winds. Put the kite away at some moments even. That's a start. and maybe a most important one.

But a backup safety set up is even better.

So What'cha' using? (I got none).

MDK, from my thinking, which sometimes is faulty I'll admit. I did not get ejected from the buggy, I was pulled sideways and had the buggy come up over the top of me. Or almost on top of me. I was pulled out from under it before it came all the way down. So, if a auto release was in place it would of released the kite, and I would of had 80 lbs of buggy landing on my legs or more. As it was I got jerked out and landed about 15 feet from the buggy. Like I said, this is from my perspective, and I did get slapped along side the head in this incident so maybe my thinking isn't clear.

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Originally posted by fletcht MDK, from my thinking, which sometimes is faulty I'll admit. I did not get ejected from the buggy, I was pulled sideways and had the buggy come up over the top of me. Or almost on top of me. I was pulled out from under it before it came all the way down. So, if a auto release was in place it would of released the kite, and I would of had 80 lbs of buggy landing on my legs or more. As it was I got jerked out and landed about 15 feet from the buggy. Like I said, this is from my perspective, and I did get slapped along side the head in this incident so maybe my thinking isn't clear.

Oh ok I get it now, thanks for clearing that up for me I see your point, so like others have said, nothing is 100% so it is left up to personal choice. mine is to try and prevent being lofted 10-15+ feet in the air and then dropped even with knowing now I run the risk of having the buggy flip and land on me, which I imagine would be no picnic

I agree with skimtwashington, because I am still relatively new to buggying and a big chicken, I find myself underpowered most of the time, but I still like the thought of having a backup plan for those freak gusts.

I guess I am an odd case at this pointI have gotten to the point were I dont wear a helmet at times. I have pushed my system to the point that I know what, where, how, when, if, and for sure.
Your right in not having something 100%, but I feel mine works up at 99% and the 1% thats left over is the part I keep pushing to find. I fly overpowered more now than I did in the past. Most of the guys flying the day I was hurt had 3.0 and 3.5m kites, mine was a 2.4m. I have no problem going out at Ivanpah while everyone was flying 3m FB kites, I was out trying a 5m and having a blast. At speeds up at 40 or more I dont like the feeling and I slow down, I have no desire to break any records, unless I had a bit to much of my........ Breaking the record with the Apexx and the rumble seat would be a simple task, the only issue would be my brain and how it works for the day. Overpowered and the risk of an OBE is not part of the equation, at least not anymore. For me anyway.

fletcht, how is Manzanita for buggying?

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fletcht, how is Manzanita for buggying?

I stay at Newhalem State Park which is about 1 mile South of town.
It is one of my favorite camp and ride spots on the Washington or Oregon coasts. A short drag of the buggy over the dunes and you have a nice long run, (3 miles maybe) south to the Jetty, and then back to town central. Mid summer can get crowded near town, and horse traffic south can sometimes be a concern. The middle section has never been that over populated even if the campground is crowded. I like it since I can leave the MH in the campground with all amenities and my wife can walk, ride, or read in all the comforts of home. We need to ride together somewhere someday.

guys, sorry for getting off subject. fletcht, I will u2u you, thanks!

Manzanita is a horrible place to buggy It's my home beach and I'm there most weekends, lmk if you are in the area!