With all the injuries happening to our group lately it has me thinking that this might be the same departure for FB as it was for early C kites for Kiteboarding?

Depower is coming on strong and we are starting to see posts to stay away from FB.

Thoughts?

I don't think fb kites will disappear they have their place, but I do think there will be a move from foils back to more advanced single skin kites, that's where I think the next leap will be ;-)

I will never go back to flying FBs. I feel so much safer with depowers. But I don’t static fly my kites anymore. If I was static flying only I don't think I'd enjoy my depowers nearly as much. I think part of what we are seeing is a failure of people to size to the conditions (all the conditions). I have always sized for the gusts. I'd prefer to be safe and work the kite when the winds drop as opposed to being fully powered and then hammered when the winds pick up. Mistakes happen. Freak gusts happen but common sense and risk management go a long way when seeking to avoid an accident.

I have taken more hard knocks on my small kites in big winds than I have ever taken with my big kites in small winds. Now I just don't fly when the winds are pushing my upper limits of comfort and power. I think there is a lot of people who feel the bravado to say, “Yeah, the winds were cranking and I was out there rippin’ it on my 2/3/4 meter (whatever size you scale down to)”. To me, its simply not worth the risk of getting my buzz on for a few minutes compared to being able to fly for a lifetime in moderate / controlled conditions. Others may be well advised to consider doing the same.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone who has been injured. Just voicing my opinions and practices in hopes others who are truly interested in promoting the sport may consider doing the same. One injury causes a lot more problems than just how to pay down medical bills. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of someone getting hurt in a smooth 10-15mph wind. Its always, “The winds were 20-25 with gusts pushing 30-40mph so I flew my 3m low lift kite but was caught off-guard and lofted.” Really?? How surprising that a 40mph wind lofted a flyer on their “low lift” kite. Sometimes we are the problem… not the wind or the kite.

B-Roc, depowers are great if you have the space required to fly them. They (DP) may be safer with enough space, but in close confines where you have to make your turn, I definitely feel safer with fixed. At GP, if you miss your turn you can: be dropped in the mouth of the Fraser River, with its up to 12 knot current; dragged over rocks and large logs then dropped in the Fraser; drop 10' into Scotch Pond; or hit the 18" high chain that surrounds the park on the landward sides. You will also have to have enough control of your kite and buggy control to avoid the collections of Revs, stunt kites, single liners, loose dogs, errant cyclists, assorted picnicers, and the physical obstacles we commonly encounter in our 500mx200m of city park. (GP looks way bigger when viewed through a GoPro.) I have yet to fly a DP that meets our requirements. Even my very maneuverable AlaSCa, tended be sphincter clenching adventure in anything but an empty park with low wind.
Single skins have a long way to go to get the efficiency or response of a fixed bridle foil.
Read through the forum and see how many of say we like to be overpowered. As long we insist that you need be overpowered, we are going to have injuries.
S

I grew up in my buggy journey flying in small spaces and never considered depower being a detriment. My Phantom IIs and Montanas can turn as fast as I can get the buggy turned around every time. My main field I rode in while living in GA wasn't more than 100m X 200m. I was dodging remote control cars, lacrosse practice and people throwing balls for their dog. Bounded by city streets, treelines, and power lines as well. The sodfarm in CA was slightly larger but we flew both type kites chasing each other and I don't remember either type kite having a big advantage.

Fixed bridle kites have their place when the wind conditions are relatively stable. I would never get a Vapor out in winds that are gusting double the base, unless maybe its with a big one and the winds are 5 gusting to 10. There is a reason the small Vapors are sized so closely in the small sizes. Their wind range is very narrow. I like the depowers because it lets me ride overpowered with the bar in and then I can back it off to turn around. It's like flying 3 different sized fb kites at the same time with the increased wind range.

Some industry guys are talking about what kites are going to be available in the future and quantum leaps in performance that we will get from them. I'm anxious to see what the next big thing is. I had assumed things had come far enough that changes would be incremental from here on.

Scudley "Single skins have a long way to go to get the efficiency or response of a fixed bridle foil." Watch this space... from what I've heard there are companies pursuing this avenue with good results and I don't think it will be too long before we hear officially ;-)

Hey, I resemble that remark B-Roc.

...but, like I just mentioned in my other thread... if telling my story of foolishness helps even one other fellow power kite flyer out there avoid being hurt it's worth it. Feel free to use me or that thread as an example of what NOT to do.

I too am starting to lean towards depowers, but I still enjoy my FB kites -- just have too many of them. I think for now I will stick with the Viper Ssssss.

-Mike

Quote: Originally posted by Smeagol

Hey, I resemble that remark B-Roc.

If so its only because your accident is so similar to all the others. I was not writing with you in mind and its not my intention to malign you. Just commenting that its usually the pilot and neither the kite nor the conditions that lead to the injury (and while I wouldn't say a depower would always be your answer I do stand by my opinion that depowers are generally more safe to fly in most conditions if you are boarding or skiing. I'm not a buggy guy so I'm not in a position to argue their preference / needs).

I'll take good judgment over great kites any day. Kites perform how they perform. Critical thinking is the key to safety.

FB, Depower, single skin, c kites, inflatos, arcs, etc....they all have their uses, they can all be dangerous in the wrong conditions. Taking the proper safety precautions is what's essential here. Gear, checking the wind, using the right kite for the conditions, checking for obstructions, etc.

I've been lofted with low lift FB, low lift DP, Arcs, hell even a NASA wing (sort of). Why? Because I pushed my limits. We all partake in a sport/hobby that in one way or another begs us to take it to the limit every time we launch. Some of us will give in and push it, some of us won't. So long as there are those that wish to push the limits of themselves or the kite, we will see injuries. Kite type does not matter here so much as knowing your personal limits and the kites limits.

Just my opinion, some may disagree.

I love my FB's for what I use them in. Very small areas (100yds long - if that) in some very holey light wind. I need to be able to turn them on a dime and get as much power as possible from the light wind and I like to get up to speed as fast as possible. I haven't tried the Montana's but in my conditions I am very skeptical about a depowerables ability to turn as fast as my Blades on handles and give me the bursts of speed I can get from my Vapors in short distances especially since I'd have to use a much large depowerable in it's place. Maybe one day I'll have to give them a try....They do have their place but IMHO, there are still areas and conditions where FB's are needed.

I'll never forget flying the 9.5m Montana at the sodfarm and running to like 40 feet from the irrigation pipe boundary to our field, throwing the buggy into a slide while the Montana is downturning. Pulled the bar in and the kite would lift me just out of the seat of the Ivanpah I had at the time, so I'm doing a sort of pegstand for 10-12 feet before the buggy catches up and away we go again. This happened 3 different times. YMMV

Mmmmm, montanas....fast, quick turning, and LIFTY!!! Fun kite

Quote: Originally posted by beachrights

With all the injuries happening to our group lately it has me thinking that this might be the same departure for FB as it was for early C kites for Kiteboarding? Depower is coming on strong and we are starting to see posts to stay away from FB. Thoughts?

Blasphemer!!!! I fly FB ONLY! Fbs are like a stick shift, DPs are like an automatic. It's easier for your gandma to fly. LOL I enjoy the fact that ,you control the power by A) Choosing the proper kite for the given conditions.
B) Knowing where to send it and where to NOT send it.
C) Easier set up and wrap up.

I don't fly pillows and air mattresses!

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

Quote: Originally posted by beachrights   With all the injuries happening to our group lately it has me thinking that this might be the same departure for FB as it was for early C kites for Kiteboarding? Depower is coming on strong and we are starting to see posts to stay away from FB. Thoughts? Blasphemer!!!! I fly FB ONLY! Fbs are like a stick shift, DPs are like an automatic. It's easier for your gandma to fly. LOL I enjoy the fact that ,you control the power by A) Choosing the proper kite for the given conditions. B) Knowing where to send it and where to NOT send it. C) Easier set up and wrap up. I don't fly pillows and air mattresses!

But but, why is there a "Donnie Cam"? ;-)

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD   Quote: Originally posted by beachrights   With all the injuries happening to our group lately it has me thinking that this might be the same departure for FB as it was for early C kites for Kiteboarding? Depower is coming on strong and we are starting to see posts to stay away from FB. Thoughts? Blasphemer!!!! I fly FB ONLY! Fbs are like a stick shift, DPs are like an automatic. It's easier for your gandma to fly. LOL I enjoy the fact that ,you control the power by A) Choosing the proper kite for the given conditions. B) Knowing where to send it and where to NOT send it. C) Easier set up and wrap up. I don't fly pillows and air mattresses! But but, why is there a "Donnie Cam"? ;-)

Over here in Australia, depowers of some variety are the norm, if the winds gusty or the location is lumpy, I will just fly an Access Depower, if they are reasonably stable then I will get out a fixed bridle.
All my injuries have been on small kites, and fortunately to date only required short term pain killers ( no broken bones).
We have one kiter, whom I have only ever seen fly one kite, a 13 m Peter Lynn depower, never takes out a spare, he'd be the quickest among our local crowd.

There's no divide over here about what you fly, be it a depower, a racing FB, a NASA wing, or a LEI, everyone's welcome to ride together.
Every kite has some good points and some bad points........ That's why I've bought 11 kites in the past 18 months, and I keep them all.

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD   Quote: Originally posted by beachrights   With all the injuries happening to our group lately it has me thinking that this might be the same departure for FB as it was for early C kites for Kiteboarding? Depower is coming on strong and we are starting to see posts to stay away from FB. Thoughts? Blasphemer!!!! I fly FB ONLY! Fbs are like a stick shift, DPs are like an automatic. It's easier for your gandma to fly. LOL I enjoy the fact that ,you control the power by A) Choosing the proper kite for the given conditions. B) Knowing where to send it and where to NOT send it. C) Easier set up and wrap up. I don't fly pillows and air mattresses! But but, why is there a "Donnie Cam"? ;-)

Cause I've been a shipyard welder for 30 years and I am blind as a bat. Well, that and pylons keep jumpin' in front of me... ( my story & I'm stickin' to it).

BB, if you are talking about Todd's "Donnie Cam" , it's a live feed into his helmet. So when I'm comin to blast by him ,he can start pedaling faster!:P:P:P

I'm just getting my 1st look at the new depower single skins and agree they show promise. Not the rag flappers anymore !

Scudley is SO RIGHT when he says that folks wanting to fly fully powered is a big issue. It doesn't leave any room for the gusts.

Fixed bridles are here to stay ! There's lots of reasons to like lots of different kites !

I flew race kites week in week out for 11 years inland. Sometimes I'd turn up at the beach after a 2 hour drive and see the sand being blown across it and knew there was no way I could fly safely. Back in the car.

I loved my race kites tho, but then one day everything changed and I never flew a FB again. A friend let me try his 6m Access and I was blown away. Suddenly I had a new kind of control over the kite that was so intuitive. I knew then that I had reached a turning point.

Of course I knew about depower, I knew how they worked but until I actually tried it I never saw the point. Surely a race kite is going to be quicker, that's why it's called a race kite isn't it!

It would completely transform the way I rode the bug. If a gust came, I had it under control. If I wanted a ton of power to run downwind, to powerslide or climb a steep bank, it was there and I was no longer burdened with an overpowered kite when heading upwind. I found myself less fixated on the kite too, I could relax and take in my surroundings, take in that sunset or that seagull gliding close by, hell I could even film myself with the camcorder!

Back then I thought if I were going to make the change then I wanted to part company with foils completely and so I went the LEI route in 2008.
My Pb's started to jump steadily over the months after years and years of being stuck in the low 40s.

Today I turn up at the beach and unless there's sand being blown across the beach then I'm either back in the car or I'm disappointed. Fixed bridled kites genuinely scare me now.

I think the advent of course racing in kiteboarding and the sheer popularity in that sport is seeing money being poured into R&D in a big way and it won't be too much longer before we start seeing them being used more widely in buggy racing and world speed record attempts but even if your not into any of that, LEI/depower kites is just such a relaxing way to cruise your bug without compromising on performance.

Everybody send me their big ol' scary FB's. LOL They are NOT safe,and you might die. Oh ,the humanity!
And they used to call this an extreme sport???? I gave up motorcycles when everyone and their sister starting riding. I have no desire to do what everyone else is doing. Even if it means doing it ALONE. That is what attracted me to kiting. If you have a scary FB,send it to me.

WG

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

Everybody send me their big ol' scary FB's. LOL They are NOT safe,and you might die. Oh ,the humanity! And they used to call this an extreme sport???? I gave up motorcycles when everyone and their sister starting riding. I have no desire to do what everyone else is doing. Even if it means doing it ALONE. That is what attracted me to kiting. If you have a scary FB,send it to me. WG

Ill take any the outlaw kiter doesn't have room for!

Quote: Originally posted by mougl

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD   Everybody send me their big ol' scary FB's. LOL They are NOT safe,and you might die. Oh ,the humanity! And they used to call this an extreme sport???? I gave up motorcycles when everyone and their sister starting riding. I have no desire to do what everyone else is doing. Even if it means doing it ALONE. That is what attracted me to kiting. If you have a scary FB,send it to me. WG Ill take any the outlaw kiter doesn't have room for!

My brother from another mother!

Part of participating in an extreme sport is pushing the limits...when limits are pushed, ANY KITE can be scary!!!!! Being a little scared is part of the thrill for me. I've also never been a fan of trailer queen hot rods...

Maybe I'm weird but having that little fear makes me feel alive!

***Edit*** where the h3ll did that hot rod comment come from?? Must be my Disofficer...Disofficer? Attention order. Attention deficit disorder! What were we talking about?? HI!!!!

Blame it on our ADD.

They all have their place in our sport. BeamerBob and I have had this discussion, and I feel that I have more precise control of my kite with handles on a fixed bridle and I feel personally that ultimately a fixed bridle will always have a top speed edge over a depower simply because there has to be less parasitic drag because of the lack of pulleys and mixer thingys (sorry people, I'm die hard fb guy, and yes I have a lower pb then several depower riders. But I'm coming for ya':D.) The other side of the coin is the extreme versatility of the depower and it's ability to handle less than ideal conditions. Really it's all rider preference and what your goal and comfort factor really is.

With regard to recent injuries, pride and bravado led me to try something that I was not ready for with kites that I had already convinced myself that I wasn't ready for or really that I didn't enjoy flying. I had a smaller size, I should have started small and worked up, and I had some plain bad luck. I was riding a 2.7 vapor in 26-31, which I could handle. What I didn't do was leave myself any room for a gust. I was working to slow the kite down, vapors don't like to go slow, lol, and as it slid back in the window and was doing what I call chatter (being a bit twitchy at speed) I caught a gust that my girl estimated to be in the high 40 mph range. I didn't allow room for this in my size selection, and I paid for it hard. Bottom line is it was poor decisions on my part trying to be something I'm not. It was in no way the fault of the style of kite I was flying. I choose poorly, and I hope that up and coming and or my fellow riders will take note and learn from my mistake, or at least be reminded to really look at what you are trying to do. So now I'm on the mend, chomping at the bit to get back to it, and reevaluating my gear selection. I don't know if you guys will get anything from this, but I felt that I needed to share it and that this may have been a good place to do it.

That's the risk. Sometimes when you push the limits, be it the limits of your skills, you're equipment or your comfort level, sometimes the limits push back and push back hard. But then this is how we progress and what doesn't kill us, cripple us or scare us off, just makes us stronger (and smarter)

I find the discussion of FB vs DP a little baffeling. None of us ride FB here and tho we here all started on FB trainers once we discovered depows we never looked back. I appeciate the "bang for the buck" power you get from a FB and the precise control but by and large I don't see those benefits out weighing the benefits of depow. Esspecially if you live in an area where the winds are dirty. The idea that depows are now just catching on in some circles is just kinda hard to believe.

In regards to comments on speed, I've used nothing but Arcs and they have proven to be more than capable at speed. Rob Douglas from the Black Dog uses LEIs on his sessions. People have been using depowers for speed in some disciplines for a long time now and the results speak for themselves. I agree bridles have a ton of drag but the kites I use don't have this issue. You could argue the shape has a lot of drag but I'm not convinced and my expiriences have show otherwise. I'm really interested in Bob's buggy exploits with the Phantom. I want to see where he goes with it and what he figures out. I'm amazed by the differences between the ski and buggy disciplines. The dynamics are all over the place!

I like being able to fly one kite in a huge wind range. I can start my day knowing full well that the winds are going to go up or down, and just pic the one kite that covers the wind range that I will see over the course of the day. Now worries about getting stranded, no swapping of wings, just riding.

The raw power of FB kites, or C kites has it's place for a lot of people I think. The F-Arc in my opinion is the Arc equivelent to a C-Kite and I love the thing. The power that kite produces is amazing and I get a real kick out of taking the 12m out and smoking kites that are bigger and 10yrs newer. It's a kite I have a lot of respect for though and I know that if I make a bad descision while I'm out on it, even a little wrong move, I could end up like Heliboy. :o

I guess the bottom line is make smart choices, and take all the safety precautions under the sun but it's a wind sport and we are never truely in control regardless of what type of wing you have in the air.:evil:

Josh, I think you would've been flying the kite bag if you were properly planning for a high 40s gust. That has to be up at the limit of my 6m PII.

There a sticker shock ramp for kites as their is with other hobbies/addictions.

FBs are always going to be the gateway drug.

My first soft kites/foils were baby Thunderfoils, my first proper quadlines were Flexifoil Stings.

I expect the thought of dropping $750-$1500+ on a kite would have scared off a lot of prospective buyers, where a couple of whiskers shy of $200 for a Sting 2.4 or 3.3 is a little bit easier to swallow.

Then when the the hook is full set, you start eyeing the horse pills.

Under the right (or wrong) conditions, any kite can hurt you.

I would hate for anyone reading this thread to get the false impression that "depowers are safer" automatically translates into:

"Oh no... don't you worry your pretty little head. It's not like you have to invest the time to develop the muscle memory to actually use the safety features when the sh|t hits the fan faster than a feral cat hitting an unattended bucket of mackeral."

In the womb, none of us knew anything about top-hat safeties, sheeting, or flagging kites out... Momma Nature has no qualms about delivering unto you a:



should you believe otherwise.

ATB,
Sam

I still love my fixed bridle kites though I am more cautious with them than my depowers. not flying the 4.7 or 5.6 much any more but I still fly the 3.5 and 6.6 a lot. they feel like very different animals these days but when you are flying simply for the fun of flying a kite then fixed bridles are still the best for me.

The next kite advancement? I think zero and single strut LEIs will start appearing more and more.