Hello PKF! I'm new here, but have been lurking around for awhile. I have a couple of questions that may need answering here, so I'll start with this one.

I currently own a 5-meter fixed-bridle kite (shown in my avatar). I am strongly considering de-power capability so that I can deal with the gusty conditions of the backcountry that I typically go to. I'm looking towards either the HQ Apex series or the Ozone Access (the latter of which is less likely since I may be on a slightly tight budget).

Has anyone compared the new HQ Apex IV to the older Apex III? Is there any positive/negative improvements to the latest model? With the Apex III now out of production and being sold out, I'm wondering if the Apex IV is worth the extra money.

Thanks for any advice.

Welcome to the forum!

Both the A3 and A4 are great kites. The Apex 3 is a solid performer and if you can still find one, a lot of kite for the money. My only complaint about the A3 is that compared to the A2 and the A4 it is prone to a little wingtip tuck. Not constant and not like some other kites, it just periodically catches a wintip in the bridle. Sometimes it can be shaken out, sometimes you have to land it, let it roll over, reverse launch and it comes out.

Not a major problem, just annoying. We use them for our lessons and it hasn't been an issue.

The Apex 3 is a good kite and the Apex 4 is better. Reduced bridle count, doesn't suffer the wingtip curls of the A3, has more lift than the Apex 3 but still retains the stable more touring style qualities of the previous Apexs. Turn rate is better and bar pressure is lighter. Even the 11m turns fast.

Bang for the buck Apexs have always been a great option. We sell the 11m Apex 4 complete ready to fly for less $900 shipped. That's a hell of a lot of kite for not a lot of money. I was concerned about the changes made to the Apex4, I thought it would lose some stabilty and user friendliness but that has not been the case. It turned out to be a great kite.

The Apexs all have one little thing that a lot of people find with HQ depows. The bar reach is kinda long. Clam cleat equipped kites like Matrixxs don't have this issue but the trim strapped equipped kites have a long reach. Makes it a little awkward for smaller kiters our kiters in waist harnesses. Most people get used to it. We put extensions on our trim straps and it helps a lot.

Thanks for the response. While I'm at it, I'd like to ask about proper kite size.

Now I have heard from this forum thread that "depowerable foils will generally have much less power per size than fixed bridle foils". As mentioned previously, I own a fixed-bridle 5-meter kite, and ride an MBS Atom landboard on grassy terrain and hard beach sand. I usually get 'optimum' power at around 15 miles per hour on average.

My main question is, what size Apex would pretty much match the wind range I get now with my current kite? I know that I should get a larger de-power kite size to 'match' a fixed-bridle size. Would I be frequently overpowered if I get the 11-sqm size, even when sheeted out? Thanks for any reply to my questions.

If you are replacing a 5m FB then you want about a 10m (9 or 11) DP. As a general rule, 10m DP is like a 4m FB when fully depowered and like a 6m FB when fully powered. That's the benefit of DP its like having 3 kites in 1 (4, 5, 6m) and the same holds true for any DP in any size (multiply the size by 0.6 for full power FB equivalent and 0.4 for 100% depowered FB equivalent).

Aspect ratio and AoA default have an impact too which is why a 10m Montana is more aggessive and lifty than a 10m Access but you get my point about power to power compairsons.

Welcome to PKF!!
Nice Octane too

I agree with Feyd. His info is spot on. The IV is a much better kite than the III in my opinion. I did not make measurements but I feel the bar throw is less on the IV than the III. I am one of those kiters with the short arm syndrome and I had alot of issues with the III. If the bar went out the stopper I had a hard time reaching it to pull it back. I could never let go of the bar so bar spins were not happening and I got fatigued alot faster as I could not let the bar go and rest on the stopper.

I am happy with the fact that they stuck with the top hat safety and the strap trimmer. Its just a personal preference of mine but I do not like the fifth line safeties or the clam cleat trimmers.

I have been playing with the 8m and I am going to see what I can do to make the bar throw more manageable. My current plan is to do away with the chickenloop. That is going to gain me about 6". Instead I will use my wichard. So I will still have a release but I gain all that distance without losing any depower travel on the kite.

7.5m Apex 3 or 8m Apex IV will give you the broadest use range. According to HQ the range for the 8m is 4-30mph. Basically you can fly it in 4mph but she'sw the most fun in the low teens high 20's and a riot in 30mph+ if you have room to maneuver and the experience to manage a kite in those winds.

When comparing FB power to DP power I think it's important to remember that not all FB kites are made equal. Example my 2m Ozone Samurai has a shload more power than my 2m Peter Lynn Impulse 2. If you asked me what size to replace the Sammy I'd say 5m Apex. To replace the Impulse, I'd go 3m Apex.

My guess is the Apex 7.5 or 8m will be closest to the power range of your present 5m FB. I can only base this on my experience with older 5m FB I've owned and my experience with the Apexs. Unless your 5m is a Peter Lynn Vapor or some beast like that.

As a general rule, I think it's reasonable to say that most sheet able depows will cover the wind range of 2 or 3 fixed bridle kites.

I havn't flown either of these kites but the size you get depends on your weight, experience and the winds you will be riding in.

I can use my 10m access from 10mph - 20mph though 12-18mph is its sweet spot. I'm 160lbs and I'm an intermediate level rider.

In the same sort of winds (12-18) as a beginner just running back and forth up the beach and learning transitions I was was using a 5.6m Twister.

Unless you are 70kg or less I would think you would be best off with a 9-11m depower open cell (Access, frenzy, Apex, montana)

Have you looked at Peter Lynn Arc kites? Chargers, Phantoms etc? These make great landboard depowers too.

Quote: Originally posted by lives2fly

Unless you are 70kg or less I would think you would be best off with a 9-11m depower open cell (Access, frenzy, Apex, montana) Have you looked at Peter Lynn Arc kites? Chargers, Phantoms etc? These make great landboard depowers too.

70kg (155 lbs) is my exact weight. I'm familiar with the arcs, but with such a high aspect ratio, I'm afraid they would not be that stable or safe in backcountry conditions--more of a beach-only kite. Still, they seem to get good airtime and 'parS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K- in the window well as far as I have seen.

And to B-Roc: Thank you, this is exactly the information I registered here for. After all this internet research, and I didn't see this useful formula for calculating depower sizes. :o :puzzled:

Believe me when I say Arcs are not beach only kites. Mine have never seen a beach. :D

They are higher AR than the Apex and the Access but not drastic race type AR.

Good point from Dino about getting rid of the chicken loop to improve the reach. Even if they just had a smaller loop it would help a bit. I've got a Winchard that I can use but it kinda creeps me out. I know what its rated for, I know it can more than handle the job but I still look at it and lack the feeling of confidence a piece of rope apparently gives me. Still, it's a good idea.

Ditto Feyd's call on 5m FB comparable to 7.5 Apex with the depower able to more easily manage higher gusty winds.