I was wondering if there is a market for a $400 buggy? Something that would allow a budget minded person to get into the sport.

What would you give up in quality for this price?
What buggy weight is reasonable?
What rider weight limit can it handle?
Do you expect powdercoating for this price?

I am thinking about looking to see if it's possible to build a budget buggy that is simple and uses parts that are easily replaceable from local sources.

At a minimum, I would like to provide the frame itself so that you can get a buggy started. You can source the tires locally. I can have a really basic seat available for say $50?

Van,

First of all, I'm new here, so take my $0.02 for what it's worth. I think you have a great idea! I personally started flying power kites about 10 years ago, but always held off on buying a buggy due to the high cost of testing the waters. It wasn't until I recently moved to OKC and met a local buggy pilot kind enough to let me borrow his ride that I knew it was for me. Back in the day though, if there was a well built, reasonably priced bug, I may have jumped sooner. As for compromise, obviously strength and structure has to be sound but aesthetics wouldn't have to be top notch. I don't think buggy weight would be that sensitive but it should be able to handle 200 lbs or so for regular riding. I would certainly NOT expect powder coating. In fact, supplying a totally unfinished frame would further save on cost and allow buyers to customize as they see fit.

FYI, I've seen the vids of you riding up here at Lake Hefner and that's my spot. If you're ever in this neck of the woods again, I'd all love to go for a ride! Thanks for all you do on this site and for the kiting community. You've been a huge help to me as I've taken my first steps into the sport.

Josh

Hey!
I think that would be awesome! It's hard to want to invest a grand or so into something so new to me. A year ago, i didnt even know kite buggying existed at all. A more experienced rider may want certain features, materials, sizes, etc. but I just want the wind to pull me around a field at this point.
Perhaps if there were options, or upgrades, or variations available, and I could replace 1 part every few months, as I can afford it, it would seem more accessible.
I think the idea of locally replaceable parts is excellent! Also, some metals seem easier to get repairs done on. If I know I can take it to the welder up the street, I would be less worried.
For a "weekend warrior" type, just starting out, weight, aesthetics, rust proof ness, and even some comfort and long term durability, are secondary to "being within reach." If it only gets used a dozen times a year, and goes home to a garage and a hose-off, some high end features are not as important.
I know several young adults who would all love to buggy, but the initial investment is prohibitive.
I am totally excited to see if this happens! Maybe I'll hold off on looking for a used buggy!

I've sold a few unfinished parts here and there to help others build a buggy in the past. I figure if a cheap buggy is designed so that it's portable and all the replaceable parts can be purchased at Home Depot or Harbor Freight, more people might be able to buy one and learn on.

It of course will have to be known as an Economy buggy .. one that is cheap but only for starters. I hate for someone to get it then later complain that it wasn't built to go faster than 25 mph. I currently have my Cricket buggy for $699 retail and can be had for lower when I have an inventory sale. I was thinking of offering it with a smaller axle , basic seat, no paint , etc .. for a much cheaper price. Currently, it is designed to use peter lynn barrows or any tire / wheel combo since it is not designed with any threaded holes. You can use any size bolt on the front and rear. What I want to do is shrink the buggy down and offer a more shallow and basic seat. Keep the price to under $400. Later you can upgrade to the better seat and wider axle.

I was asking about weight limit so I can go with a lighter wall material on the axle to save on weight since many are asking for a buggy that is easy to transport. I still want to keep the rails strong so will not changed that. The fork is structurely very strong so can use a diet to reduce weight.

Just for the record, the PL ST buggy comes complete, ready to ride for $499.00. It is made 100% stainless steel. It is super light and simple to transport, axle comes off with a couple clips, no tools required. It also comes with 20mm wheels but uses adapters to downsize to the 12mm rear axle bolts.

Replacement parts are simple to come by and can be purchased from any PL dealer. The seat costs $69.00 to replace and you can purchase upgrades such as matching rail pads and covers, buggy dry bag, splash guard, etc...

I am not sure if it would be worth the time and effort to produce a buggy that was less than this and if you had to source your own tires, wheels, parts to finish it off you may end up being more than the PL buggy. Plus if you are in a salt water environment, the stainless buggy is almost a minimal requirement.

The Kite Trike / Rockwell buggy came in at $399.00, it was a chrome plated steel buggy but because of it's poor design and build quality, it ended up being more of a liability than it was worth, plus it rusted terribly, even in our desert areas where water is nearly non-existent. The seat tore our from low quality thread and poor construction, the frame rails bent under normal riding and the front fork falls apart under normal use. Cheap is cheap, and like most things, you get what you pay for. Getting a buggy cheaper than $400.00 is going to be a cheap buggy and I don't think it will hold up or last like the others do. You may save in the short run, but over time it will eventually cost you much more.

OTOH, I would love to see a high quality buggy for under $400.00, but I don't think this is going to be possible to do, either you get high quality and higher price, or you get cheap with low price.

Just my opinion.....it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

cant stop thinking about Henry Ford/ Herbert Hoover....."a buggy in every driveway"....it might get you into office

kent,

The ST buggy is good buggy at the price but I wouldn't go faster than 5mph in it. It has no back support. You need abs of steel to ride it. I was thinking about giving all the quality and removing all the bling. Something meant for more of the handy man type person. It would be unpainted .. kinda like unfinished furniture.

This was in response to what people has been asking from me .. a buggy in a basic kit form that is compatible with other buggies so they can later upgrade slowly.

Of course, I am just asking questions to see what people think .. I haven't looked into the bottom price yet to see if it's feasible. We'll see.. haha.. I could be the next Henry Ford :evil:

Van if you change your last name to Ford. Henry could be the next Henry Ford!!:P

Surely for that kinda price people would just find a half decent second hand bug. You could get one complete, and the build quality etc would be better than a super basic one.. ?

Tim

My first buggy was a ST - heck, back then that was all you could buy, either that or a Flexi which was more money....we all rode ST's and rode them hard. You can easily do 30-40 mph with an ST and they work fine, after that it starts to get a bit sketchy.

My ST held up very good for what it was, yes you did have to check it every couple months or so for cracks and occasionally hit it with the tig to stick it back together. The seat held up as long as I had the buggy although the webbing was a bit uncomfortable. Yea it doesn't have any kind of backrest, but we had the ol' springbacks back then or our homemade custom plyboard, u-bolts & strapping all with some padding on it.

It would be very nice to have a buggy that was built like the Apexx, has all the bells and whistles, durable comfy seat with good back support, high rails etc... but costs less than $400.00 but I don't think this is going to be possible, maybe if you build it for free and didn't include any of the hardware - but everyone has to eat sometime. Even at that, if you made just the bare frame for $399.00, by the time you purchase wheels/tires, hardware and paint, you would be the same or more than the ST. Tough for sure, not sure if you can even build it for that much.

Great challenge though Van, hope you can make it happen.

I kind of think that the cash strapped will still see $400 as a big bill ? With it being somewhat common for old buggies to sell for $250-ish ( what I paid for my 1st one ) I think that is more the price point ? Hard to imagine pulling it off at that cost but .... ?

I do kind of like the idea of getting a buggy that is unfinished that I can paint my choice of colour if it means less expensive.

Good idea or not , I like the way you think. All too often it is the cost that keeps people, young people in particular from entering the sport. We seem to be at a point that there are plenty of second hand kites for entry level people. There aren't near enough cheap second hand buggies yet.

It's a hard thing to be an independent manufacturer and compete with the used market and larger outfits that have the resources to build in bulk. I don't know anything about buggies. I know a bit about bikes and custom frame building and I don't know any small custom outfits that make it producing lower price point product. I don't know how much time it takes to weld up a buggy. I would bet that it would be hard to break even, if you were to try to produce a buggy like the PL ST and sell it at the price point you once taking into acct. time and materials (especially if you're doing stainless.

If you were to go absolutely bare bones, bottom of the barrel, entry level "scoot around, learn the basics" maybe go the route some custom bike builders go and build it mostly out of recycled/found materials and/or electrical conduit. For non-performance bikes (choppers, tall bikes, etc...) it's cheap and available. But as I said I don't know anything about buggies. I don't know what kind of forces are exherted even at the most basic entry level, so this may not be an option.

I hate to say it but most people, if they have the initial capital, would just design a proto here and then source the final product out of China, taiwan etc... Meets demand, cuts costs, increases the margin.

There should be a market for more affordable kite buggies, and I'm surprised no one else has done it yet. To me, kite buggies are less complex than most bikes that you'll find at Academy for under $200. So I don't know why Peter Lynn's buggies cost so much more when they're not as technical-- $1000 for just a steel frame, fabric seat, and three big wheels, for example.

I understand exactly where you're coming from and having been very close to pulling that trigger myself I have to say, it's not a good place. You are talking about opening up a door through which several others have fallen to their doom in other sports.

The very nature of this sport requires its participant develop a certain acumen and motivation to be in it for very long. Those same people usually recognize quality then they see it and seldom take the least expensive route because they have experienced disappointment. Initial start-up price for a sharp cookie with the proper mind set and willingness to do a bit of research is incredibly inexpensive, let's say everything second hand for around $500.00 to $700.00. Lowering that ceiling invites casual interest and passing fancy. This sport is only as extreme as one allows it to become but it is certainly not casual in practice, quite the opposite in fact for the neophyte. There are responsibilities and consequences for action and inaction in this game and people get hurt, maimed and potentially ended behind being causal.

I felt I couldn't build buggys in the garage for less than $500.00 and expect them to be anything but a disappointment to myself or worse yet, to their owners, in the long run.

In this community, legacy is everything because those that stick around may Forgive but, its not in their nature to Forget.

My idea is not to design a $200 buggy but to design a $600 buggy that a beginner can get in for $300 and then upgrade later into a $600 buggy. Basically, they will have the main component of a decent buggy but maybe not the greatest seat or set of wheels or paint job. They will have the frame.

When I was building Lamborghini kit cars, we were able to get just the fiberglass shell or a rolling kit or turnkey. This is the concept I am after. They can buy a turnkey buggy .. even with kite included if they want. But if they just want a foundation, then an unfinished frame would do. It's a much better start then a scratch build with inadequate tools. Yes, their final build will still cost them $600 but they can spread it out slowly.

I've never been known to charge alot for my time so I guess I am kinda working for free ..haha... :D . I know some of us need to make money from building buggies and selling kites and I do respect that. Luckily , I do most of my buggy building as a hobby.

I am also not trying to get someone towards a $1500 race buggy. I want them to end up with a decent buggy in the $500 to $600 range but be able to start with $300. Will it be stainless ??? absolutely not!! It's not possible. Not unless you use super thin tubing.

It's gonna be a challenge but I think its doable.

Well, 3 years ago I bought a Rockville Kite Trike 3 new off e-bay late November for $300 plus $30 shipping. It was the 3rd edition, all aluminum 6061t6. The designer at Cloud 9 is a bicycle designer and the "3" was his idea. He's no longer there according to Steve the owner. They were being made in China and Steve says they sold hundreds. ??? Sells now for $499.00

To be honest, I've had good luck with it. I'm a big fellow, 5'11" at 278 and have ridden the crap out of it at OOBE Field once a week, 2 JIBE's, Tybee Island, station 28 1/2 on the sand bar at Sullivans Island and on the beach at Pass Christian, Ms. and it has preformed great!

I did have to solve a few problems that were I guess were overlooked or just Cloud 9 didn't want to go any farther with it and shipped them as is.
#1. The Chinese inner tubes were crap so replaced them with American made. $36.00
#2. The seat just did'nt work for me so I replaced it with a PL Comp XL seat for $60. This helped me sit lower in the buggy and I could use more side rail, lowered my CG.
#3. The foot peg mounting system didn't hold and the pegs, they slipped so I drilled a hole and pinned them through the fork. No movement now! $5 bucks for pins and keys.
#4. Side rail padding was a thin sheet of packaging foam but does have velcro covers. I replaced the 1/4 foam with 4" swim noodles and covered them with Cordova. $50.
#5. Wanted Big Foots so I mounted a pair on the rear and a wide smoothy on the front. The turf tires all around had too much grip on grass and the Big Foots let me do power slides. $145.00 for all 3 mounted. I can do it my self now.
#6. Had to install longer bolts in the rear axle where the side rails mount. The short ones that
came with the bug kept working their way loose. And applied lots of blue Loctite on all the
nuts and bolts on the buggy. Cost $7 bucks for grade 8 and $3 bucks for Locktite.
#7. Needed a back rest so I built one and it mounts on the side rails and keeps the rails from moving or spreading keeping the buggy more rigid. May be the reason I've been able to ride the crap out of it with out bending or breaking it. Welding, padding and upholstery about $80 bucks.

So as you can see I had to make my $330 kite buggy work like a $1000 buggy. I spent another $386 dollars. I like what I've got now and it ain't bent or broken and it fits me great.

I've had only one break. Got airborne from a BIG gust, did a nose dive and bent the fork neck in the down tube. Cloud 9 sent me a NEW & Improved one for $36 bucks and I was rolling again.

I guess I've got a $700.00 cheap $330.00 buggy. Should I have purchased a more expensive one for my starter buggy? My entry cost was low but my upgrades did cost a bit but all in all
I had a good time doing the work as more money came along. It was a hobby thing that kept me out of the bars. Now that my skill level is better I'm ready to move up.

Can anyone build a cheap starter buggy? Sure, because if the basics are done right at the get go then a new buggy pilot can have fun with a cheap well built buggy. They can add options as they can afford them.

Give them the strength and the LOOK of a more expensive buggy at an entry level price and you'll sell a bunch. The sport is growing.

Van, build it and they will come.

Hey Davis, So in the end you spent about the same start up cost, and ended up paying a higher finish cost plus all your time to do the mods. (not that you said it took much time)
So Van I do think this is a good idea.

How about making a decent freestyle buggy for the same price as compXR+ (POS). The Chinese built PL is not very good. You sit on it, not in it. The fork is too weak. The welds are dubious.
How about making it out of 4130. The yield strength is nearly double that of 304 and about 1/3 the cost for drawn tubing of the same dimensions (~half the cost of welded tube). It is going to be harder to bend during fabrication, but harder to bend afterward to.
If you want really lower the cost, A513 DOM is about half the price of 4130 and about the same mech. properties.
S

Quote: Originally posted by Scudley

How about making a decent freestyle buggy for the same price as compXR+ (POS). The Chinese built PL is not very good. You sit on it, not in it. The fork is too weak. The welds are dubious. How about making it out of 4130. The yield strength is nearly double that of 304 and about 1/3 the cost for drawn tubing of the same dimensions (~half the cost of welded tube). It is going to be harder to bend during fabrication, but harder to bend afterward to. If you want really lower the cost, A513 DOM is about half the price of 4130 and about the same mech. properties. S

Actually, that is what I was talking about. My cricket buggy is same size as a PL Xr+ with wide axle. My rail kit for the XR+ comes from the Cricket buggy. The cricket buggy is priced very competitive to the XR+ considering the welds don't break and you have good back support.

I currently use A513 DOM 11 gauge tubing for all my buggies. 4130 is too costly for me to keep my price reasonable for customers. DOM tubing is slightly heavier than 4130 but it gives the strength I need for a lower price. The added weight ( due to thicker wall tubing) makes a stronger buggy but a tad heavy for jumping. For cruising around grass fields, it's great.

As someone who just crossed this bridge a month or so ago, I had major sticker shock when researching new rides. Did not matter the brand. By the time I had bought a kite or two that could sustain a buggy, my wallet was left crippled. Then it was the wife saying "just how much do you have spend to be able to ride"?:embarrased: . I was then left with with scavenging the ocean bottom for whatever used ride I could find. THANKFULLY, some great members here looked out for me and came through to help a noob get his wings and wheels without hocking the farm! Not everyone will have those opportunities, or find great deals. For the big dogs that drop 2K on a buggy, they will say the XR+ and Sprinter are entry level buggies . Maybe they are but even those can be just out or reach by the time kites and other gear are needed just to get started. At least that was my experience. I like the idea of an entry level buggy. A buggy that has a universal, tough built frame with bare bones essentials and a full line of upgrades. Different seat options, downtubes, forks, heavier axles, padding, etc. Make it as pimped out, or stock as YOU want it. Not just a standard custom build of $XYZ. Which to be honest, is mostly what I found out there other than the $600 PL, Flexi, etc. That does not leave one with many to choose from.

Is my PL the greatest buggy known to man? Certainly not. However, it did get me started into the buggy world at a reasonable price for BEGINNER equipment, which is what Van is trying to further achieve here I think. Will I end up with a different buggy eventually after my skills progress? Probably. Will I have "wasted" that $500.00 when it just could have been applied to a better buggy in the start? Depends. Now I'm back to not being able to afford a buggy to get started. LOL At least with Van's thinking, I could invest the $400.00 in the bareback model, and upgrade parts as MY skills and budget allowed. I very well may have a $1500.00 buggy in the end, but it would not have been a turn-key model all up front

A stainless line would be great too. That way, a buyer has a choice which route and budget to take from the start. "Will I be riding inland and a mild steel buggy will be just fine"? "Will I be beach riding and really do need the corrosion/rust protection of stainless"? I do know QUALITY stainless isn't cheap, and is not part of your question here, but it would be a great addition with standard/performance upgrades as well for those who can afford to be a baller . Just thinking you would then capture all 100% buyer options and interest.

I can only imagine the VTT PL seat upgrade has been a huge hit for the lower budget PL riders. Looking forward to picking me up one of those in the not too far future. Again, it's all about the upgrades :evil:

In my most humble buggy noob opinion.

3shot
You're not supposed to tell the wife!

Quote: Originally posted by MyAikenCheeks

I did have to solve a few problems that were I guess were overlooked or just Cloud 9 didn't want to go any farther with it and shipped them as is. #1. The Chinese inner tubes were crap so replaced them with American made. $36.00Never had this issue! #2. The seat just did'nt work for me so I replaced it with a PL Comp XL seat for $60. This helped me sit lower in the buggy and I could use more side rail, lowered my CG. Seat was the biggest piece of crap on this thing! Mine broke CONSTANTLY! Finally replaced all buckles with some serious Zipties and no more failures #3. The foot peg mounting system didn't hold and the pegs, they slipped so I drilled a hole and pinned them through the fork. No movement now! $5 bucks for pins and keys. Missed this one too! #4. Side rail padding was a thin sheet of packaging foam but does have velcro covers. I replaced the 1/4 foam with 4" swim noodles and covered them with Cordova. $50. #5. Wanted Big Foots so I mounted a pair on the rear and a wide smoothy on the front. The turf tires all around had too much grip on grass and the Big Foots let me do power slides. $145.00 for all 3 mounted. I can do it my self now. Originally bought tires $65 but then found free Bigfoots #6. Had to install longer bolts in the rear axle where the side rails mount. The short ones that came with the bug kept working their way loose. And applied lots of blue Loctite on all the nuts and bolts on the buggy. Cost $7 bucks for grade 8 and $3 bucks for Locktite. no issues here #7. Needed a back rest so I built one and it mounts on the side rails and keeps the rails from moving or spreading keeping the buggy more rigid. May be the reason I've been able to ride the crap out of it with out bending or breaking it. Welding, padding and upholstery about $80 bucks. $25 Home Depot

I bought my trike for $225 shipped [I think!] sure the seat was very unnerving but structurally have not had any issues. The Chrome covering rusts when you look at it but luckily I found it is light surface rust. I ride on the beach on "ribbed" sand. So the Buggy is being jarred and vibrated each run and it has lasted. Would I buy one again? Probably not if I had the funds to buy one like it being discussed here. I say build a few and see how the sales are.

Van,
I like your work and I like where your heart is at.
You've made big inroads here at PKF.
I'd hate to read a "Everything for sale" thread from you due to financial troubles relating to making(taking losses on) affordable buggies.
-There is a need for cheaply priced buggies but that need is well supplied by the second-hand market.
--I sold my mint(and it was mint) PL XR+ (with goodies) for $300.

I think a cheaper well built buggy is a great idea. A $400 to $450 would bring the sport to more people. A buggy and a kite can very pricy for and entry level person. Kites can be found used for good deals but buggy become a issue if the seller is comfortable shipping them leaving new buggies. Interesting idea of send them with out the tires as tires are based on location your going to be riding

I am looking at building my own buggy because all I want (at this point) is a basic bug that will hold my weight 240lbs. I wont have the opportunity to ride to much, therefore a bug with no bells and whistles would be great. Seeing your work Van and if you had a $300 basic bug at jibe that I would not have to worry about breaking I would have probably bought it. I also know 2 others in my same position that would also be interested in a basic well built no frills bug. I like your thoughts on this. I think there is a market for entry level no frills bug that will hold 200 plus lbs.
Good luck.

I've been looking at how to build a buggy (popeye's site and others) to get an affordable alternative. If there was an entry level buggy I would be VERY interested. I've had the itch to make the jump (no pun intended) from static flying to buggy\board\bike riding but the price tag for a buggy has been holding me back for some time.

Van, I think it's a great idea. Being someone with metal fabrication experience, when the time came for me to venture into buying a bug, the thought crossed my mind to build my own. However, not knowing really ANYTHING about buggies, how they're made, and all the crucial ins and outs, I opted to buy. Fortunately, I have a very supportive wife who insisted that I not get into "another project" and therefore insisted on me buying new. I subsequently sold some stuff which was taking up space in a closet and bought my FRANKENbuggy.

HOWEVER, had there been the option you are talking about requiring a little extra work and primarily paint. I may have given that some serious consideration.

As an unofficial VTT team rider I say DO IT!!!

I think a low cost frame/fork and the buyer provides the wheels, tires, and seat would be a good option on the market. Cost is everything on this though. The Peter Lynn buggies have gotten just too expensive. The Comp at $500 isn't a must have great bargain price wise to someone who's new to this. Someone has to be dedicated and committed(or well off) to drop $500+ on a buggy at the start of this hobby for them.

Hi Van
You have a big heart but but economically you are working for free, there will be a used market for the cheap stuff , as a board builder I have to compete with last years close outs, it's supply and demand if there are no cheap bugs out there they will pay for yours stick to the good stuff build It right make them wait, sell a custom size to fit the rider and his needs. its worth it in the end for the customer and they will figure it out.