Alright i have a question regarding using someones gear and taking responsibility for it. I bring this up because of the issue with BigKids Apexx as well as other issues i have seen in the past.
Let me start by saying i have borrowed others gear before and always take the attitude that it would be returned in the same condition as borrowed. Last year at wildwood i was flying someone elses kite and ended up blowing a cell in the kite when it crashed, i immediately let the person know, apologized and took the kite home to ship to fix my kite for repair and then shipped back to owner. I also borrowed a kite at jibe this year that i had problems keeping in the air (long story) but as a result it was late in the day and had to be packed wet and sandy which i felt horrible about. Had i been around the following morning would have retrieved it and cleaned and dried it.
I just think it should be assumed that if you use someone elses gear you assume the responsibilty of returning in the same condition or making it right. your thoughts?

Man you can only choose one. OK I'll decide of the two I would do.

Seems like a no brainer to me. I would expect to return gear and have gear returned in the same shape as it started

Worlds oldest man rule:

"you break it, you buy it"



But then again, the loaner beware, as you're the one handing the keys over to someone else and saying "sure, go take it for a spin", so there are risks on both sides of the equation.

It was way uncool braking equipment and then not making it right with the owner. If something happens take care of it however the owner wants to to be handle.

ditto knkmannthey

I treat other's gear the same way I would like them to treat mine.
If i break it, it's on me to fix it.

If I don't Know ya' ,I have gear that is for Demo. Those are expendable...
If I know ya' and we are friends,you can fly all except my 2.4 PKD Combat and my beloved 5.5 Century I. If you break any of the Centurys,Combats or Flexis,I would expect repair and ownership of damage by the one who caused said damage. Anything else is just wrong.

Now if you break one of MY buggies,
A) it means I didn't do a good enough job building it,and I will rebuild it better
B) you got hurt breaking it
C) I will come see ya' in the hospital

Seems pretty obvious to me.. Personally I wouldn't mind a very small amount of 'wear and tear', all my kites are fairly well used anyway. but much more and I would expect a professional repair / them to buy it off me if it's really bad.

Of course it goes both ways.
Although that would be an awkward convo.

Tim

I break it, I fix it.

Case in point: Van was kind enough to let me take the yellow stinger for a spin, I returned it with bent bolts. I let him know straight away and offered to buy new bolts or whatever it would take to square up.

If I break it I will buy it, hey Chris H can I borrow your MG CrooZer ? :D

I think no matter what the circumstances of letting you borrow or try something you gotta step up and take responsibility and offer to fix or replace what is damaged and then it's up to the lender to say thanks it's okay or deal with it in a fair manner. As long as you offer and acknowledge it's all above board I think most people will respect you. Accidents happen, but to try and hide it is bad. We've had "friends" ski over lines in the winter, seen doing it, and the fact they didn't tell the owner their lines may be nicked or cut just put them in a different light for a number of different reasons not just the cost but the safety factor. Then it can become even worse when confronted when the guilty party starts to make excuses for how it happened as opposed to just saying I didn't see them, sorry I'll take care of it.

Some things get a little more complicated, as another example a friend who had LEI that was at least 2yrs old lent it to a girl on the beach one day last summer because she didn't have something she needed. She used it once and coming in the kite fell onto the water and blew a leading edge - he asked her to pay the full price on repair on the kite plus a new bladder. To me that seemed like pure bad luck in timing that it was in here hands when it blew not his and I don't think the lender should have demanded she pay that. In this case it's how do you come up with a fair deal if the lender is a bit of a #@%$#!.

I don't mind getting kites back wet and dirty from a friend, it's not blown out and damaged, I appreciate the heads up, not an issue and it's far better than a bruised @ss.

i gotta assume this one is aimed at me

First off.... we had an agreement on the wheels i borrowed from ya... I break 'em, i fix/buy em. I double, maybe even triple checked with ya on those... so you know i dont take that kind of stuff lightly.

On to the apex and my crash. I noticed the bent bolt after my wreck, i talked to Jeff about it that night at the weenie roast. I offered to replace all the wheel bolts. I was told we'd get to it in the morning, and make sure we had the right size. The next morning some more tweaks were noticed on the bug.... I talked to Jeff several times over the course of the event, and he never said "Dude, you owe me for this" (even tho i repeatedly offered to replace the wheel bolts at least) he said the bolts were different, and they wouldnt be found in time for the event and thats where it was left.

I really wish if Jeff or you had a problem with me it would be brought to me... phone call, pm, something besides a backhanded post on the forums about common courtesies... and on that, why are you calling me out? Its not your buggy, not your deal, not your problem. If there is an issue that needs resolved with the apex and my crash its an issue with me and Jeff. If i need to pay for something i will... as of yet however, no one has said anything to me.

I had problems with the way some people behaved at JIBE, but bringing it to the boards isnt the way to handle it

@drew- I apologize for my timing of this, I was aware of issues with the Apexx but did not mean to try and call you out on this- also I have no issue with the wheels or anything else in our dealings. It was more of a question that resurfaced in my mind because of that instance. I assumed that you and Jeff arrived at your own solution and it is not my place or business to involve myself. Sorry and you are welcome to the wheels next year.
Scott

Thanks for the clarification and the call Scott. I pm'd Jeff to make sure all is cool, but I dont think he's got it yet.

As I read these posts and think of the things that I have sent out for others to use, the items I have given away free of charge, the parts that would normally cost a bundle were sold at cost, and a buggy that was to be bought at Jibe by one person and that person lent it out to another person who broke it, I think how to deal with all the personalities involved.
I have broke things and replaced them or fixed them or bought them from the owner at twice the normal cost to make it right.
I know stuff happens and with this if the person who was to buy the bug, (who was responsible for it as he was the one I dealt with) had told me about it when it happened, I would have been upset at the bug not the person, and made a deal for buying the bug at a reduced price. Instead I found out later that night as they were trying to get parts from Angus(like they were going to fix it before anyone found out). Only problem is I was a general contractor with an eye that could see a warped board or out of level house a mile away. Anyone with 2 eyes could see the real axle was bent.

OK, now that I was not told when it happened, and I had to find out on my own, and after telling the guy who was given permission to use the bug before he bought it that we need to talk about the Apexx, both people involved split without a word. I was left high and dry.
RIGHT NOW, IF ANYONE ASKED TO USE, B0RROW, OR BUY ANYTHING FROM ME THE ANSWER WOULD START WITH AN F AND END WITH A U. It wouldnt be fair to anyone for me to be this way and that is the last thing I would want to do. I will still give things away, let others use my gear, send out demo's to us and help those that need it. I have even let a few make payments over several months for an item. Only specification I asked for was if they were going to be late with a payment to let me know before they were late. No problem and no interest, deal done and the buyer and I are very happy.

I wont pretend this didnt screw up my Jibe trip but it did.
I will forget about this until someone brings it up and reminds me with some type of comment.
Was I wrong for what I did? Was the person who was to buy the bug wrong? How about the guy who broke the bug?
Right now it doesnt matter, I could have and wish now that I did sell it to any of the 3 other people, a done deal, cash in the bank. Now all I have is a busted bug that needs $$$ to fix it and no buyers. Who wants a repaired buggy, if I drop the price it will sell and I loose even more on the deal.
Guess I live in a different world than everyone else were morals and ethics are part of life, not just a couple of words that are debated over as to what they mean.

Anytime something gets damaged I automatically blame it on scott........it doesn't even matter if he's 1000 miles away.......he always gets the blame :D

Seems like a no brainer to me. I would expect to return gear and have gear returned in the same shape as it started

It would seem this is all my fault. I was interested in buying the buggy originally. I let Jeff know over the phone prior to the event that I was interested but as the Apexx is built to size, I would need to try it out. At the event we raised the ride height and lowered the seat in hopes I would fit. I took it down the beach a couple of times and upon my return I communicated to Jeff that it still felt a bit snug and in order to keep it moving in a straight line, I had to keep moderate pressure on the left foot peg. (It was pulling left even before the accident) After some investigation, I found that this buggy had 2 prior owners before Jeff and both rode it quite aggressively. One of them was even known to jump it. Buggies that are jumped frequently have bent axles...

I will not take responsibility for any damages due to another pilot wrecking it as I did not loan it out. Jeff, you said that that buggy was for demo to anyone who wanted to ride it so my apologies but I will not take responsibility for damages.

No, I did not buy it. If a client of mine was interested in a car and it was crashed by another customer on a test drive, I would not expect my interested party to purchase said car. I also never got a price from you even after several attempts. I apologize but I am not wealthy enough to just say ill take it without concerning myself with the amount I need to cough up.

Nobody tried to hide the fact that the axle bolt was bent, in fact you were in on the conversation when we were trying to make it right at the weenie roast. Remember?

The fact that you question my morals and integrity here on pkf is messed up man. If you feel this is all my fault, you are certianly entitled to your opinion however there are 2 sides to every story and I thought my side needed to be heard.

By the way Jeff, I remember another interested party that was aware of the damage and was still willing to purchase so there still is a buyer.

I can't believe anyone would have a wreck in a borrowed buggy so bad that it bent 20mm axle bolts and not tell the owner...

I also know the previous owner of this buggy and it was in pristine condition when Jeff got it.

I also thought the PKF family had integrity. :barf:

Ron

Quote: Originally posted by mougl

It would seem this is all my fault.............................By the way Jeff, I remember another interested party that was aware of the damage and was still willing to purchase so there still is a buyer.

my wife asked me if this will end on a good note and I answered her with a statement that was said to me by 3 other people I have never met before, "I hope you got the money up front from him?"
In this instance my love, I don't expect anything. However I did receive a u2u from the other person, will have to wait and see.
Would the interested party care to answer the last statement? You don't have to, its just a rhetorical question.

Pristine, Ron? Wasn't that buggy modified at the back axle by the original owner after an incident at NABX? Wasn't it used at a field the then rep for Apex and Peter Lynn told me was so rough that it voided the Peter Lynn warranty when my fork cracked in less than 6 months?
Now a slightly different slant on the poll question. You are test driving a used car from a dealership. While out on your test drive, the engine blows up. You were not doing anything that you would not normally do when driving, it just blew up.
Would you go back to the dealer and offer to pay for a new engine? or would you hand back the keys saying to yourself, "Holy Shia! I am glad I did not buy that."?

S
p.s. Before anyone says I am a notoriously cheap busturd; Dirtslide's beat up old shop vac died while I was using it last week. I offered to replace it with a new one. He kindly refused my offer.

I borrowed an Epic Infinity from a guy in Okinawa; looked brand new to me. Second time out with it, it looped a bridle around a wing tip and went into a death spiral then finally split from TE to LE I emailed the guy and said I would make it right, and contacted Dimitri at Epic to buy him a replacement. Dimitri told me to send him the wrecked kite and he'd send a new one to the guy in Okinawa! Great customer service! :o

Crashed a bike I'd borrowed off a buddy... but I'd already agreed to buy it so that was fine.

Otherwise, I'm more careful with other people's gear than I am with mine, and I'm pretty cautious with mine! Still rather not borrow stuff cos I hate that feeling when things go bad and I'm responsible...

So I'd check "lender beware" and "I broke it, I'll fix it"...

When I was 14 I was dogsitting for a friend. After a few days the dog got hit by a car and died and I felt terrible. It was such a sickening feeling, so needless to say damaging a friends kite it way easier to swallow than accidentally causing the death of their pet

Flyjump, I always though Apex was a dog!

hahaha

Jibe was a great event. I was surprised on the number of people and their generosity with equipment. All kinds of kites, board and Buggys where offend to share at one point or another. Have a change to try some different equipment was very nice. I even got to try one of BigKids kite boards. I thank him for the opportunity try it out. I made sure any thing I borrowed was in the same condition to the best of my ability. I would have worked any repairs out to the owners satisfaction as is was the right thing to do. When learning it is great to check out equipment before investing a lot of money to make sure it will fit and work or does what it has been told to do. I first hand saw Jeff frustration on this situation and believe honesty and commutation is the beast policy

I'd like to address a few things if i could....

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

Instead I found out later that night as they were trying to get parts from Angus(like they were going to fix it before anyone found out).

This is totally not the case. after the wreck i went back to camp and told EVERYONE. I told the story till i was blue in the face... always followed by the phrase "i'm buying some 20mm bolts"
the first chance i met up with you was at the roast and we discussed getting new ones. there was no hiding what i did. i never passed the blame, never denied what i did.

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

OK, now that I was not told when it happened, and I had to find out on my own, and after telling the guy who was given permission to use the bug before he bought it that we need to talk about the Apexx, both people involved split without a word. I was left high and dry.

once again... we talked about it at length at the roast... i was told you needed to check the size before i bought anything (and maybe i could buy one from you instead of Angus)... my wallet was out, and i was ready to pay for my damages

Quote: Originally posted by RonH

I can't believe anyone would have a wreck in a borrowed buggy so bad that it bent 20mm axle bolts and not tell the owner... I also know the previous owner of this buggy and it was in pristine condition when Jeff got it. I also thought the PKF family had integrity. :barf: Ron

1. I was totally unaware Jeff was in the dark on this until yesterday when he called me
2. Not what ive heard
3. You dont know me dude, and to question my integrity, as well as this whole community, is a pretty d*** move

Quote: Originally posted by Scudley

Pristine, Ron? Wasn't that buggy modified at the back axle by the original owner after an incident at NABX? Wasn't it used at a field the then rep for Apex and Peter Lynn told me was so rough that it voided the Peter Lynn warranty when my fork cracked in less than 6 months?

Interesting points that kinda make me question the state of the bug before i got to it......

Quote: Originally posted by Scudley

While out on your test drive, the engine blows up. You were not doing anything that you would not normally do when driving, it just blew up. Would you go back to the dealer and offer to pay for a new engine? or would you hand back the keys saying to yourself, "Holy Shia! I am glad I did not buy that."? .

I remember Jeff telling everyone that all his gear was available for demo... that right there kinda absolves Scott of any responsibility in this manner... Afterall, he didnt wreck it, I did.

On that wreck... i'll retell the same story here, the same thing i told everyone else... and the Apexx Elite here can tell me if im in the wrong on this..

I was on a down winder... i think i was ~ 30mph but i kinda doubt it looking back... i hit a tidepool drain trench, pretty much head on ( as i thought was the best possible option for avoiding a roll) the bug flipped forward, dumped me, and skipped down the beach... i didnt see it as i was face down pulling safeties... when i got to the bug it was ~10ft away from me upside down, i was ~10ft away from the trench... not really what id call a terribly violent crash. i have a few bruises in my hands and a little road rash on my shins. thants it... i righted the bug, put the kite up (which didnt crash, it was still in the air when i looked up after the crash) and rode back to camp to tell the story.

Scott and i noticed the bolt, and i said well, looks like im buying bolts, and i went on to tell the tale to everyone there.


I would just like to say, ive offered to fix the damages i caused. I didnt even notice the axle till the next day when Jeff pointed it out... and we all looked over that bug after the wreck and no one spotted the axle or the tweak to the downtube. if you want me to find a way to fix the axle and the downtube i can make some calls and see what i can do... i dont feel thats my doing, but hey... I know i have no integrity or sense of morals, but i figured i might as well try and help a fellow kiter


I will not however accept full responsibility for the total damages on a well used bug and fork over $2000. Scott told me day 1 before all this he wasnt going to buy it for more than 1500 anyway... i trust his judgement, and the research he'd done on that buggy.

So the offer for new bolts is still on the table, and if need be, i can call some customers to see if anyone can true up the tweaked axle and downtube..... From the beginning, ive been upfront and havent hidden anything, and offered to help at every step... It really p****s me off that people are saying otherwise

I stand by my words... Axle ends broke at nabx. The repair made it better than new.

Riding in a field that is hard on PL buggies. Yup. If it's so bad, how come all our buggies aren't trashed?

We should all have mangled pieces of steel that look nothing like a kite buggy by now!

Ron

Quote: Originally posted by Scudley

Pristine, Ron? Wasn't that buggy modified at the back axle by the original owner after an incident at NABX? Wasn't it used at a field the then rep for Apex and Peter Lynn told me was so rough that it voided the Peter Lynn warranty when my fork cracked in less than 6 months? .

But I do know Jeff.

We either have to believe Jeff or you.

I know where I stand.

Quote: Originally posted by Drewculous

3. You dont know me dude, and to question my integrity, as well as this whole community, is a pretty d*** move