So a few months ago I was contemplating doing some modding in a board so that I could kite ATB at the lake. I had another kite able spot get elected for construction so now have only a couple spots that really are mostly not that great. I decided to contact MBS and see why they haven't made an available option for wider tires, as it seems that on every forum there were a few threads on the topic. I got some great replies from Matthew Spinney who seems to be in agreement that it could be a worthy option to seek out. Probably a few concerns of whether it would be popular enough or not. How many people here would spend the money to have their boards set for wide tires?? Or was I being a bit too optimistic?? Here are the emails that I sent out and got back. He replied to me the next day after I email; which, left me quite impressed with their customer support team.

Hi! I'm just curious if you can provide any info as to why there has not been any wide wheel and tire configurations made for your mountainboards?? I kitelandboard and ride downhill, and have found many spots that would be rideable if my tire configuration was wider to allow float ontop of the surface. Example: A lake I go to has a massive smooth beach. It is solid to walk on, but ride a board and the skinny wheels sink in. There are also many hills at that lake, that have softer spots that you hit and ultimately slow right down to a stop. Upon searching many forums, I have learned that I am not the only one who would benefit greatly from this. I've seen mods that people have made, but it seems that a manufactured product would be the best option for durability and safety. Thank you for your time.


To be honest with you, I don’t think we have ever made any available for customers. We made a set or 2 and due to the size of the tires, we had to build out custom trucks and set ups. Between the additional cost and weight of this, at the time the demand was not high enough for it to be feasible.
You are correct that now in more forums it is coming up that they would be useful, and the market might be ready for these to release. I have sent your email over to our manufacturing team, and hopefully they will follow up with myself or with you.
We appreciate your suggestion and I will hope to get more information on this soon.

Matthew Spinney

Hi again,

I was just curious if you had heard anything back on this topic?? I'm finding its going to be a pretty kiteless summer because another of my riding spots just got leveled for my construction. The beach is starting to look like the only available open spot for kitelandboarding in my area. Still have the little hill to bomb, but those wide tires would do wonders.

Thanks Again

I have not heard back from my manufacturing team. I will follow up with them. I think the issue that would become apparent, is that it would cost customers a lot more than they expect. You would have to buy new trucks specifically designed to handle the fatter tires, tubes and tires would have to be more expensive, and replacement parts may be in short supply.
I will see what I get back from my contact.

Matthew Spinney

Quote: Originally posted by shaggs2riches

I will follow up with them. I think the issue that would become apparent, is that it would cost customers a lot more than they expect. You would have to buy new trucks specifically designed to handle the fatter tires, tubes and tires would have to be more expensive, and replacement parts may be in short supply.

let's break this by line.

1. "is that it would cost customers a lot more than they expect." Hubs and tires are already overpriced in my opinion. the people who NEED this will pay pretty much any price.

2. "You would have to buy new trucks specifically designed to handle the fatter tires" Some would, some wouldn't. all GI trucks could fit a wider tire no problem, just remove the spacers. Now, not EVERY deck would be valid with a wide-tire setup, some boards may experience wheelbite. but in my very limited time on a deck with HUGE tires, it was no issue at all!

3. "tubes and tires would have to be more expensive" not really, only fractionally more. tubes and tires that we need are already available from suppliers, we just don't have a wheel that is appropriate!

4. "and replacement parts may be in short supply" Really? Like the short supply that already exists for the entire product line? Good luck finding new eggs in your durometer for your pre 2008 MBS deck...MBS will tell you to just buy new trucks! (YMMV, FWIW)


I've ridden two oversized boards. one a trampa, one a MBS lil Bomber with newer 9" MBS skate trucks...with BARROW WHEELS mounted! it weighed a TON but it rolled like you wouldn't believe! Both boards turned and I did not experience wheelbite, but I did not ride them hard at all.

Good question.
I have been asked the same thing for the Flexboardz. The setup is a bit different, but the desires are out there.

I ended up installing 2 wheels/tires at each corner with a longer grade 8 bolt and a short spacer between the duallys. It added a lot of weight but made for some impressive tracks in the sand. The ride was even more smooth and I have yet to make the board slide, not that I was real good at it with only 4 wheels.

We even played with splitting the wheels and making them wider, problem then was finding tires in enough quantities to market the idea.

Cheng Shin Slicks are marginally taller and wider that standard MB tires.

The next bump/step up in tires from mobility/granny scooters. Even the standard gray ones dwarf standard MB tires. They can generally be mounted on MBS Tri-Spokes, GI Multi-Hubs, Cryptic (Flame) hubs, or similar.

Flame boards use to sell a wide tire set up, but as far as I could tell, it was their Cryptic hub with Primo Durotraps on them. They were black versions of one type of gray tires that are markets for mobility scooters.

Not really sure you need to tap a mountain board manufacturer for this is there is a fairly healthy selection among mobility scooters and landscaping vehicles. You basically just have to find the tire you want and then part an appropriate hub and bearings. A mountain board manufacturer would have to commit to one size of MB "big foots" or end up playing "chase the goose" as far as inventory management.

In the end, they would just end up sourcing from an existing maker.... GI's MAK was their own, but they sourced the slicks from Cheng Shin. Flame sourced their "bigfoot" tire from Primo who also makes tires for the mobility scooters.

Footnote: At one time, before the demise of GI, I had an interesting conversation with Matt. What they wanted to do was take the Terraintula hubs and make different bolts and spacers available for it, so that you could play around with tire widths.

However, if you want to truly delve into the mouth of madness in the search for maximum tire width, go here:

What wheel size

ATB,
Sam

You can source and source and source and make it, yes.

That's all well and fine for some people, but many just want a BUY IT NOW option. (hint hint, shop owners.)

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

You can source and source and source and make it, yes. That's all well and fine for some people, but many just want a BUY IT NOW option. (hint hint, shop owners.)

The bottom line is that mountainboards are a niche market. "Bigfoot" tires for mountainboards are more so.

MBS Tri-Spokes are available on the MBS site again, but for quite a few months they weren't. Extrapolate whatever supply/demand thoughts you might want to on that.

New boards come out every year. When was the last time a MB specific tire came out? The thought of MBS, Scrub, etc. footing the tooling costs for new rubber with an unproven ROI seems.... optimistic.

"BUY IT NOW"?? .... even if one were available tomorrow. It's not necessarily something that's going to fly off a shop owner's shelf, and more often than not, it would be drop shipped.

My point was that there are viable options in the 9-10" inch range that are readily available locally. 4-ply tires (which are what most of the larger ones are) will incur a healthy shipping charge depending on where you are located.

Prior history indicates that they will generally only be available in sets of 4. Not a problem initially, but a pain when replacing damaged tires. That's generally not the case when they are "sourced."

YMMV.

ATB,
Sam

Why do you jump to new designs and manufacturing when I say some would like to 'buy now'? You were talking about sourcing parts as a individual. I am talking about someone taking it upon themselves to source, package, and sell, not manufacture, spend r&d, create a specific product for ATB, none of that.

Please don't try to use "niche market" as any sort of disqualification....isn't the entire sport of powerkite a niche market still...after 30+ years!?

It appears nearly every kite shop supports 'the long tail' aspect of the market, by making numerous small sales of varying products rather than specialization in a single thing (stunters, single lines, FB power, depower, boards, buggies, rather than say LEI only....)

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

MBS Tri-Spokes are available on the MBS site again, but for quite a few months they weren't. Extrapolate whatever supply/demand thoughts you might want to on that.

Well, as I understand it, there was demand, but as evidenced by the email chain above, MBS isn't all on the same page with itself..... Nor is MBS totally willing to support old tech when they would rather sell the new tech.(I have no idea why.) The Tri-Spoke is just about the oldest product I could find without revision in the MBS lineup, so it should have recouped it's r&d/tooling costs by now, making it overall more possibly profitable to replenish stock of. Now, again, if MBS would pack up a "9 inch tire upgrade package" that is wheels, tires, tubes, with a set of bearings in there....they might see a few more sales. Anytime I've looked in their e-store, I've not been able to put that particular package together, something is always out of stock.

I can go to one website and find some wheels I want, and then go to another website and find bearings that will fit in the space between the wheel and my axles, and then to another website to find a tire that fits on the wheel, and then to another website to buy a tube that fits in the tire.... but since I've not done that yet.... it's probably not happening soon. But click one thing, and blow $150-200 on a wheelset? Harder to resist. Again...Just sayin', my .02, whatever.

duplicate post

My sentiments were that it would be a whole lot easier and cheaper to go to the website and order a proven package that would give me (and other with the same issue) the upgrade without having to go through the trial and error stage. It may be that there just isn't the market out there for this option to be put together and I understand that. My hope was to spark interest and ideas with a company to find someone willing to put it together. I guess I'm one of those people with imagination for something, but would rather order it up if it has already been done. I will occasionally get ambition and try something though. I was looking at a local store that has wheels that I might give go to get through the summer, but it just sounds nice to have a manufactured tested option right there to buy without all the other fuss. And I'm not sure what width of wheels I would need, so it becomes a guessing game again.

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

Why do you jump to new designs and manufacturing when I say some would like to 'buy now'? You were talking about sourcing parts as a individual. I am talking about someone taking it upon themselves to source, package, and sell, not manufacture, spend r&d, create a specific product for ATB, none of that.

From the viewpoint of economy of scale, it's the one that makes the most sense. Unless, a shop owner wanted to pay himself pennies per hour and stock something that he/she sold once every couple of months.

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

Please don't try to use "niche market" as any sort of disqualification....isn't the entire sport of powerkite a niche market still...after 30+ years!?

It's a perfectly valid assertion. There are niches within niches. The market for "Bigfoot" mountain board tires is probably much smaller than say... FB kites.

Quote: Originally posted by shaggs2riches

My sentiments were that it would be a whole lot easier and cheaper to go to the website and order a proven package that would give me (and other with the same issue) the upgrade without having to go through the trial and error stage.

Bottom line... how big do you want to go?

These are the Cheng Shin slicks on GI Mult-Hubs.








There is also a treaded version of the tires



Furbowski had a wide tire set-up here (bottom of thread). It eventually ended up failing, but that was because he was using Vegas Hubs and he was running it on only 3 out of 4 bolts. The tires are Primo Durotraps which are readily available in the State (and I expect Canada).

Another option is something similar to Plummet's rig, which I believe are Primo Spirits on MBS Tri-Spoke (it wouldn't be hard to confirm the details).





No, it's not a turnkey package, but you'd probably be talking about ordering from two sources.

ATB,
Sam

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

These are the Cheng Shin slicks on GI Mult-Hubs.

Referencing a product from a dead company(GI) as a valid option does none of us any good.

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf   These are the Cheng Shin slicks on GI Mult-Hubs. Referencing a product from a dead company(GI) as a valid option does none of us any good.

Seriously? The GI Multi-Hubs are displayed for size comparison. I don't have MBS Tri-Spokes or Flame Cryptics which are the same class of hubs (second paragraph of my first post in this thread).

Pretty sure that Shaggs and most long time readers of this forum are aware that GI is no longer in business.

GI Multi-Hubs are turn up second hand. Lots of gear that is no longer available from manufacturers float through the For Sale section.

By that logic recommending an Ozone Flow, PKD Brooza or similar would be out of bounds..... sheesh.

ATB,
Sam

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

GI Multi-Hubs are turn up second hand. Lots of gear that is no longer available from manufacturers float through the For Sale section. By that logic recommending an Ozone Flow, PKD Brooza or similar would be out of bounds..... sheesh. ATB, Sam

Please stop misrepresenting my point. I have not said "you should not purchase discontinued products". I said "Referencing a product from a dead company(GI) as a valid option does none of us any good." If those who want were interested in sourcing parts, rather than a turnkey option, then it may be valid for them.

Hanging out in the for sale sections is sourcing your parts, just as if we went to a site for the wheels, and a different site for the hubs, etc etc etc.

Only 4 people have posted in this thread, so it's a limited sample, but it's 66-75% in favor of a turnkey solution that is not sourcing parts yourself. (unsure as to bigKid's willingness to source. I would imagine it's much higher than shaggs or I), and it's apparent that 75% think a larger option should be available in a format that is better than current "source all parts yourself".



A previous note I forgot to address:

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

Unless, a shop owner wanted to pay himself pennies per hour and stock something that he/she sold once every couple of months.

It was my understanding this is every single kite-related product for sale, in every kite-related shop in the world.

Every kite-industry person I know personally, in 'real' life, makes no profit selling kites and accessories, and has to have another source of income. IME, this is most often lessons & certs.

If kite selling is actually more lucrative than that, let me know, I'll open a e-store.

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

Please stop misrepresenting my point. I have not said "you should not purchase discontinued products". I said "Referencing a product from a dead company(GI) as a valid option does none of us any good." If those who want were interested in sourcing parts, rather than a turnkey option, then it may be valid for them.

That was not my intent.... and I would appreciate it if you would extend the same courtesy to me. I did not recommend GI Multi-Hubs. They are the only comparable hubs to MBS Tri-Spokes that I had and posted them as a size comparison to GI MAKs & Vegas Hubs (which <* gasp *> were also made by GI, now defunct), but makes them no less valid as an example of a "standard size" MB wheel set-up.

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

A previous note I forgot to address: Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf   Unless, a shop owner wanted to pay himself pennies per hour and stock something that he/she sold once every couple of months. It was my understanding this is every single kite-related product for sale, in every kite-related shop in the world. Every kite-industry person I know personally, in 'real' life, makes no profit selling kites and accessories, and has to have another source of income. IME, this is most often lessons & certs. If kite selling is actually more lucrative than that, let me know, I'll open a e-store.

Time and storage space (unless they drop ship) are also intangible assets to a retailer.... I am not even going to venture which sellers have sufficient quantities of either to spare for a venture such as this. It's quite possible that something like this would just be a resource drain on them as opposed to a thin margin item... again, can't speculate on something like that. I do know that more than a couple of retailers have told me that for things like nuts/bolts, amsteel, bearings, etc., I really was better off just buying them locally (if at all possible). This might fall into the same category no matter how much one might wish otherwise.

I honestly believe that MBS wouldn't be overly enthusiastic about jumping into something like this, but if I am wrong, all the better.

If anyone wants to do this as a proof of concept, one option might be to do a group buy through a dealer to shave some costs and get the one-stop shopping experience.

This isn't the first time a wide-tire set-up or something more suitable for looser terrain has come up. As there weren't a stampede of turnkey options offered in the past....

ATB,
Sam

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

This isn't the first time a wide-tire set-up or something more suitable for looser terrain has come up. As there weren't a stampede of turnkey options offered in the past....

And we will keep having this discussion until a turnkey solution is available, because obviously sourcing the parts yourself is not an acceptable option for most people, or we would not have to "keep reinventing the larger wheel" as it were.

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

That was not my intent.... and I would appreciate it if you would extend the same courtesy to me. I did not recommend GI Multi-Hubs. They are the only comparable hubs to MBS Tri-Spokes that I had and posted them as a size comparison to GI MAKs & Vegas Hubs (which <* gasp *> were also made by GI, now defunct), but makes them no less valid as an example of a "standard size" MB wheel set-up.

How would we possibly know that some things in your post are a suggestion of what to buy, and some things are merely a size illustration? You certainly didn't clarify that in the post in question.

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

And we will keep having this discussion until a turnkey solution is available, because obviously sourcing the parts yourself is not an acceptable option for most people, or we would not have to "keep reinventing the larger wheel" as it were.

As you saw no merit in the group buy option... and continue to wait out a turnkey option.... have at it.

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

How would we possibly know that some things in your post are a suggestion of what to buy, and some things are merely a size illustration? You certainly didn't clarify that in the post in question.

Apparently, the desire/need for turnkey solutions doesn't end at wheel setups. I assume that people either know that GI is defunct or can readily surmise it from a Google search.

Failing that, please feel free to retroactively go back over the entire forum and rail on anyone that has ever had the temerity to reference a manufacturer abbreviation or kite term without explaining it (inline) in painful detail.

@shaggs: Apologies for polluting your thread with responses to whatever burr has gotten stuck in EW's paw.

ATB,
Sam

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

As you saw no merit in the group buy option... and continue to wait out a turnkey option.... have at it.

Have never seen a link that is a group buy option that is *actually happening*. Have only ever seen people discuss it until it fizzles and nothing happens. If you have additional information, please link it.


Why are you frustrated with me? I'm not trying to be rude. Some of us have pretty clearly defined why sourcing parts isn't something we want to do, but you keep offering it as the option we should pursue, so obviously I'm not satisfied with that "assistance".

Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

Failing that, please feel free to retroactively go back over the entire forum and rail on anyone that has ever had the temerity to reference a manufacturer abbreviation or kite term without explaining it (inline) in painful detail.

I don't know how you got butthurt (as the kids say nowadays) but I'll #@%$#!ing drop the topic already, and yes, apparently I'll keep waiting, and so will Shaggs, and so will BigKid. I have no idea what product in your post you feel someone should buy, and what product in your post you were just saying "see, it's possible!", so please #@%$#!ing forgive me for assuming the entire post was suggestions that we should try by buying them.


Finally- The thread is "Would you pay for a wide tire setup?"...could you at least get around to just saying yes you would or no you do not require or desire such a product? Talking about all the various options one could pursue if they choose to try and get wide tires only implies an answer, and "Market forces make this a non-starter idea" doesn't answer the question at all either.

Thought I was the only one that pissed people off.....
From a business point of view, If I had a turn key set up, I would have the wrong one. With all the different wheels, tires, bearings, etc, I would have to spend a million dollars for 1 set of each and I would still hear from a customer, How long will it take to order it in?
Any custom work will cost the designer a ton of money and after a million units sold the chances of breaking even are a little better than they were before it all started. Thats the kite business.
The other aspect is how long will the custom set up last? Lets not go any farther than this for now, life is to short.

The wise old man told the ranting fool after hearing about how he would do it and why he doesn't understand why others don't see it the same way he does, "If we all thought like you, we wouldn't need you any more". My wife says I rant to much.......

Quote: Originally posted by erratic winds

Have never seen a link that is a group buy option that is *actually happening*. Have only ever seen people discuss it until it fizzles and nothing happens. If you have additional information, please link it.



Dakitez had a group buy for the PL dry bag, but received some complaints from other dealers, so it got nixxed. The successful group buys have been through PKF members.


• Todd had a couple/few GoPro group buys for GoPros
  
• Dan had a group buy for aluminum pulleys for harnesses
  
• MacBoy sponsored a group buy of Pansh Auroras.


Maybe there have been others, but those are the ones that immediately come to mind. Some fizzle, but some do happen.



Quote: Originally posted by indigo_wolf

Why are you frustrated with me? I'm not trying to be rude. Some of us have pretty clearly defined why sourcing parts isn't something we want to do, but you keep offering it as the option we should pursue, so obviously I'm not satisfied with that "assistance". I don't know how you got butthurt (as the kids say nowadays) but I'll #@%$#!ing drop the topic already, and yes, apparently I'll keep waiting, and so will Shaggs, and so will BigKid. I have no idea what product in your post you feel someone should buy, and what product in your post you were just saying "see, it's possible!", so please #@%$#!ing forgive me for assuming the entire post was suggestions that we should try by buying them. Finally- The thread is "Would you pay for a wide tire setup?"...could you at least get around to just saying yes you would or no you do not require or desire such a product? Talking about all the various options one could pursue if they choose to try and get wide tires only implies an answer, and "Market forces make this a non-starter idea" doesn't answer the question at all either.



I essentially had 3 posts with progressively more detail, which you seemed to take as:

1. "hammering the 'source it' option
   
2. a matter for personal umbrage or the something which you needed to provide the rest of the PKF members protection from
   
3. Which then resulted in whatever you want to call the resulting bucket of piss and vinegar.


Would I pay for a wide tire setup without knowing the the final cost (other than your proposed $150-$200). Not without asking a bunch of questions first.



1. What's wide? 3", 4", 5" or some fraction thereof?
   
2. Will wide also mean tall (CoG)? How tall?
   
3. Actual cost including shipping
   
4. 2 or 4 ply tires.
   
5. 9, 10 or even larger inner tubes?
   
6. Tested for wheel bite on what boards?
   
7. Does it require a axle stud swap out?
   
8. Will tubes/tires be available as one-offs for replacements or only in sets of 4.
   
9. Who makes the tires?

ATB,
Sam

Wow that was intense reading. Sorry I got side tracked half way though, but it seems that there are valid points to the equation. I myself still would really love to see a run made up. It does seem valid to point out how small the market is and would be in this area. I'd assume that MBS probably won't actually address the issue with any seriousness, but it was worth a shot. That setup of plummet's looks like it might be an option with my pro 90, hope that I may find something similar to work. But I still will hold some hope that an option would be made available, as I think there are a bunch more out there who would jump on it, and do t know it yet. Summer is here for the most part, and it always seems that by mid June, Im hoping for snow so I can kite again. Maybe water lessons in August will change that for me. Till I can get something put together, I'll just have to be happy with wha I have now.

My landboarding options are really suffering at the moment. The best spots are too soft and I just have some narrow tidal beaches that are good for a couple of hours either side of low water and 2 smallish grass areas. Still better than nothing when its not blowing enough for the water.

I'm expanding my choices by refurbishing my Buggy which has big wide wheels and will run great on the big sand flats.

I'm not sure I would want a board with big wheels/tyres to be honest but if thats what it took to get me out and riding I would be all over it!