Anyone can tell me if $550 + ship is fair price for 2010 PL Charger? Condition on the pictures seemed good, color is not faded and bar/lines also not faded and smooth...but has 3 minor repairs and repaired by professional store...two small rip is in the lower wing foil and the other rip is in the tip where the folding bars are inserted....will it affect the aerodynamics of the kite?....Thanks for inputs.:puzzled

I'd say that's a fair price with a Nav bar. The repairs shouldn't have any affect on flying of the kite. You didn't say what the size is but I'll assume it's larger than a 10m?

The guy is selling 8m and 12m each for $550 + ship....I'm on price negotiation right now.

I hate to say this, but just be careful with the charger 1's. I've never had one, but they seem to be either lemons or a great kite. Do some research first.

To: BeamerBOb......you quote this in the Sales forum "I would take the smoothies if the shipping wasn't so bad. Going across the north border always stings."...will you please elaborate...seemed very important info to learn from your past experience?...did you buy something in Canada and shipped to your house and had a custom problem or something?...did you buy from a store in Canada or just someone selling used item?...Thanks for your explanation.

It's just expensive either direction. The Canadians also run the risk of high customs fees. Shipping to just across the border is easily more than double not quite across the border. Shipments into Canada must be via USPS intl express to avoid automatic high brokerage fees. Even then you have to insure for more than you'd hope to get for a lost shipment because the insurance amount is reduced at the counter for some reason. Shipment on those tires was going to be more than the sale price for instance.

Quote: Originally posted by Flyfish

I hate to say this, but just be careful with the charger 1's. I've never had one, but they seem to be either lemons or a great kite. Do some research first.

My experience with charger Is is small but each time with 2 different kites risked life or limb. I wouldn't buy one at any price. I've seen and heard of others having good experiences with them but I know my experiences are not isolated.

chargers are awesome, buuuuuuuuuuuut they have to be set up a certain way or they wont fly right. it seemed like they were designed down to the millimeter, so if there was a repair or if you didn't tune it up right it would spank you or simply not take in air.

the small ones are really dangerous in high winds. so be careful. the 10 was supposed to be the most dangerous. the kite was so fast for the amount of power.

one of my dutch friends flew the 8m in 45 knot winds and was going huge and the kite simply ripped in half! it was insane.

I had the 12m and 19 and loved them. the 19 was one of my favorite arcs. but like I said, they have to be tuned up just right.

Hey Joey
I've sent you a couple of U2Us
Mark

I'm just wondering if this is a first kite.... To me Charger is a higher performance machine and not for the beginner. No one has asked so I just thought it was worth asking. Do you have some flying time under your belt so you will be able to handle this kind of kite?

couple of hrs with FB 3.5m hydra...want to learn depowers, will start from full depowered setting to gradual powering in 11-25kph wind in the grass and lake....that's the idea...no plans to jump or fly yet...I'm eyeing at 2010 8m Charger in good condition, right now but costly shipping cost....please share ur experiences or some enlightening inputs....also looking at new 2012 Liquid Force Nirvana Kite on sale at the online store for $645...but this can only be use in the water not sure on winter time and maybe not as durable as the Charger....which do u think is a better kite to learn depowers?....Thanks for your expert advice.

adding facts, 2012 Nirvana is 7m with LF CPR Bar (5 Line) 45cm and comes with free shipping to US and Canada and brandnew.....that's what s giving me the second thought.

chargers are definitely the more aggressive of the arcs. just be careful with the 8m. it will have less power than an 8m LEI kite in the same wind conditions.

People new to depower don't always know that a equal size lei kite will have more power than arcs due to their rigid frame. the nice thing about foils and arcs is that you never have to repump the kite after they are filled. as long as they aren't being bashed into the ground foils will also last longer than lei's because the air bladder will wear out over time.

Is the air bladder in the LEI changeable...can be replace easily and is it cheap to replace?....what about its skin compared to foils...which is last longer in normal use...like minor crashes in the grass/sand/snow?

You can usually get the bladders from the manufacturer anywhere from 15-75$ depending on the size of the bladder. they are not one size fits all, but I know that you can buy kites to fit the size that you need. there are lots of tutorials online to help you modify their size and replace them.

they are not hard to replace on your own just expensive. I replaced a few bladders back in 2009 when I first started and the leading edge bladder replacement I think was 75$ at the time. Now I don't know how much they cost these days, but that was a few years back.

As for the skins I think the foils last longer since they are double skin and not single skins like the LEIs. Now this is my own opinion and I haven't flown anything besides foils in a few years. So hopefully someone with more experience on both styles of kites will chime in to help you out.

I don't think charger is a good choice to learn on. Pl venoms are similar to the charger and a lot more mellow. Any arc but chargers, scorpions, and f-arcs are good beginner kites. I imagine the charger, especially the smaller sizes, to be an f-arc 1200 but faster and with more depower. I would never give my f-arcs to someone new. I have had lots of incidents where if I didn't know what was doing, I could have been injured or killed. If you are new to depower and you screw up you are tied to the kite. There is no instant out like fb.

I'm not trying to scare you, I'm trying to protect you. I have been injured by a kite and it is not fun. I was new to depower and didn't have enough experience. I ended up breaking my foot trying to do spins like I did on my fb.

I'm with Snake. Stay away from the charger 1's. They are super aggressive, and like flyjump said, they seem to be good or bad based on millimeters. If you get a bad one, it will clap shut and then spank you. Seriously, get a venom, you can't go wrong. As far as durability goes, you will break before an arc will.

From a noob with a bunch of arcs, I gotta agree. You can pick up a Venom for less than that and have a much better time with it. From what I understand, the Venom II is just the Venom I with a few (oft-well-liked and oft-disliked) mods on it. I have 3 Venom I's and they're super cheap and great kites.

Markite probably already covered this, but I just bought a kite from across the border and shipping cost about $45, which seemed maybe $10-15 more than shipping across the US, although your local locale and accessibility affects the price quite a bit. To me it didn't seem that exorbitant.

Also, I personally think that patched kites don't hold air as long as they used to. Lots of people say that it makes no difference, but I think the difference isn't necessarily negligible, it's just very small.

Anyway, I may be selling a Venom I soon due to too many kites in the closet with similar wind ranges, so hit me up if you want to talk about it. PM me for my info.

I'm going to take a slightly different view on some things here - owned a lot of arcs and have repaired a lot of arcs and still have a broad mix of arcs. Also owned and still own a fair number of LEIs.

Yes the Charger can be a finicky kite by comparison to the earlier models but most of that i would say is in the overall less stability at auto zenith which can make them twitchy and wandering when trying to park. Some, i don't know percentages but would guess it would be a lower percentage than higher, had tip clap issues. There are mods that fliers have done like eliminate the line split on the Nav bar and shortening the mid shoulder webbing to bring back stability. The Charger 1 could be stally at times and needed front line coaxing. It's a fast turning kite and the smaller kites need more attention then the larger kites. You need more wind to fly the smaller so you combine that with speed and needing to give attention to stability when trying to park at the zenith and you'll find the larger sizes more forgiving. If using in a buggy the small sizes are way too reactive in the tendency to auto zenith so they require way too much steering correcting an attention to buggy in high winds and high speed. For kite surfing with smaller sizes you need to be comfortable with arcs and kiteboarding to co-ordinate a few things otherwise trying to stabilize the kite to get a board on in higher winds with the small sizes will be tougher and then you have to fly the kite in a way not to whip it in and out of the power zone too fast. For winter, kite skiing can be a lot easier because you are standing and working the kite so that straight line tracking isn't as much of an issue but the stability can be an issue when trying to put on a snowboard in gusty winds and the kite is wandering all over the place. The mods will help stability.
The small Charger 1s aren't anything like an F-arc - totally different Aspect Ratio. They fill up and launch easy and static flying are fine (but with the swaying at auto zenith), just when going fast they need attention to track straight and keep from swinging upward fast.
As far as durability, the earlier arcs (S Arcs and Gs, Venoms etc) all seemed to take a lot of abuse pounding into water and land - early days of kitesurfing there were a lot of "Whumps" as arcs hit water and I rarely had a repair unless it was from catching a branch or something. More recent arcs (Charger 1s) i had far more repairs from internal rib separations and blown cells - probably because the kites are flying faster but one good hard hit and you could burst a cell - like any foil.

Compared to LEIs - there is a lot of valve talk and bladder talk but here in Ontario the only time people have had valves come off is leaving kites in the car on baking hot days when the glue separates and there are undoubtedly bladder issues mainly with small punctures but out of the dozen and dozens of people I kite with on a regular basis i would say that it might average one type of bladder repair per person every few years - I've only had 3 bladder issues - two were warranty issues right from the first inflation and replaced and one punctures from landing on dune grass. LEIs are always hitting the water on every busy day and when its windy you'll see dozens and dozens of kites hit the water - the vast majority of time no damage. But you just never know so I wouldn't say LEIs are worse off in any way for durability - but that may also be dependent on brand/construction.

I've owned Scorpions and still have a 16 and 10 - the Scorpions could be real bastards launching at times and they would just hang and not go to the zenith or take on more air to fully inflate - but once up they were a go to kite for a number of us for a while - never had any crazy issues with Scorpions other than inflation. Found the 16 to be a very comfortable easy kite to fly and have used my 10 as a high wind buggy kite and winter kite quite often and found it very stable. As they got broken in and stretched a little the inflation issues seemed to disappear but they do tend to loose internal air pressure quicker than other models **Except for my Phanny2 that will not hold air for any longer than a couple of minutes at best on the ground.

If I was getting an arc as a first de-power I would tend to get a little larger kite - they are slower and more forgiving and overall you would get more use out of the larger sizes here in Ontario. Winds vary greatly and often gusty when they are higher. But of all arc sizes I like using smaller ones when I have the winds especially for buggying but if i looked at all sizes and number of hours after all seasons the 15 would probably come out on top followed next by even split on 12 and 18 then next would probably be many days needing a super light wind kite followed by 9 then a very small number of days to use the 6-8 sizes.

learning to use a depower the basic idea of bar in for power and out to reduce power is simple but there is more to it. Many often don't understand the relationship to kite speed and power and letting the kite fly. I see it all the time with people going out in light wind and pulling in on the bar thinking they need more power and the kite stalls and they go nowhere. You need to let the kites fly and build up speed and then pull in the bar when you want that surge of power but ease that bar out again as soon as you feel a drop in power or kite speed. learn to work the bar and what effects it has on the kite especially once you start moving. Static flying a depower will only give you a small amount of what you need to learn and will learn - it all opens up once you get moving and pick up some speed.

Going for a small LEI as a first de-power I don't know if 'd go that route either. Again you need more wind to fly them and then to have practical use for doing anything with them you need to put yourself out in some pretty high wind - if things go bad they go bad fast and a small fast kite isn't going to give you much time to react.

I agree if you got your hands on other models of arcs they would be a lot more user friendly for a first arc. The autozenith stability of older models was very forgiving but the question is can you find a kite size and condition and price that you will like - they do come up and just recently a venom was up for grabs. Not to totally crap on a Charger 1 - they can be good kites and no tip clapping etc but they do stand out as the one arc that was the twitchiest and needing time to refine your arc handling skills (ground handling for launch through flying) to get the most out of them.