Line length. 7,12,15,16,20 25,30 meters. What's best?

All size lengths have a time and place.

As my skills have increased I've been flying on shorter line sets.
I started with 30m 440/220's and am now using 16 -20m's.

The longer lengths were more forgiving when I first started, slower turning, lot's of line drag and also where we fly at OOBE field we needed to get over the trees to get some clean air.

Also it takes a lot of time to roll or figure 8 the longer lines, guess it's part of the dues we pay to learn the sport.

Earlier this year I was at "station 28.5" on Sullivan's Island outside Charleston. THE place where Charleston meets for kite boarding. https://www.facebook.com/Station28andahalf?rf=16035913065546... (google for more)

There I saw a kite-boarder (Aire?) local star tie up a line set of a 120m. I asked his brother what was up with the stunt and he said that was where the wind was. Off he went going north to Is. of Palms. It looked like slow motion in the air but he was moving at a good clip!

As of late I believe I'm seeing a trend to shorter lines. I recently saw a post on my Facebook from Stephan Van Bommel. He was flying in a grass field with a what looked like a 8m Z3 on short lines. I asked what the length was and he replied with 12m. And recently he was testing a 14m Z3 on a 20m line set. And didn't Stephan at NABX pull out a smallish foil and fly with 7m lines in high wind?

Anyway, how about discussion on this topic from you fellows and gals with a lot more experience then I.

Time & place, application, line strength, need and usage. What say you?

http://popeyethewelder.com/archives/14243

Thanks greasehopper,
Yes, I did reference that Ken Shaw story I had read but forgot where I saw it.

But still would like to get some commits from the crew here as to their preferences.
A teaching moment so to speak.

Lots of newbies with inquiring minds out here doing their homework but nothings better then
"right from the horses mouth".

What say you?

Mine is a limited experience so far but, here ya go.

I've been playing with a 3M Crossfire II, a 5M Beamer IV and a 5M Blurr on 12 and 25 foot sets of paracord as well as 25 foot sets of 400 over 200 off-shore spectra that's kind of crappy and stretchy. I've worked various combinations in light winds and nasty, gusty, twitchy conditions that would normally have me digging out a 2M wing. I did try a 8M Panch Ace on 25 foot lines but that was a disaster of epic proportion so I tabled that as a work-in-progress. I'm determined to find a useful buggy purpose for that kite if it kills me and it might.

Some observations on flying with extremely short lines:

Don't waste your time with anything less than 5m lines as I can't get a good down turn sweep without leaning on the brake lines to finish the turn which chokes any power I might have developed or smacking the kite into the deck. If you want to run something that short, you're further ahead to fly off the tow points on the bridling like an NPW. Tow point flying is less than ideal with a wing over 3M because you start to deform the profile and skin tension of the wing significantly even on a 3m.

The whole dynamic of acceleration, gaining momentum and achieving top speed changes dramatically with short lines. I find the feedback through the handles so enhanced that I seldom look at the kite to determine position and attitude. Building speed is more a function of changing course downwind a bit to accelerate rather than working the kite through the window. I find myself using the brake lines to pull the kite back into the window slightly to develop power and track downwind with that as speed increases until I'm up to the desired velocity. Cutting up wind can be difficult when working a confined environment such as a paved walking path or a roadway and puts a premium on conservation of momentum. That said, short lines are idea for working an urban environment; playing in a parking lot dotted with light poles and landscape features. I find it far more challenging and exciting than an out-n-back run to the interstate at Ivanpah.

I have yet to hit anything close to the speeds I usually run with a long line set when flying on short lines but, I have yet to give that dynamic a go on a truly wide open surface where I can experiment with course changes at will.

As stated previously, each wing seems to like a particular line length and I suspect that is due to the arc of the wing profile. I think we may start seeing a trend in manufacturer's offerings that includes a specific length line set tuned to the profile of each size wing in a series or at least a list of recommended line lengths.

Another quick note:

I chose those three wings on purpose. The Beamer is my base line. Both the Crossfire II and the Blurr have angle of attack adjusters built in so I can tune on them as well. To date, I have left both of them set at a low angle of attack which is very reassuring in gusty conditions as I have yet to get yarded from the buggy by a gust. That said, the Beamer doesn't seem to mind the short lines and performs nearly as well on 25 foot lines as it does on 80 foot lines as far as top speed is concerned. I'm curious to see what my 5M Haka thinks about short lines but I haven't gotten that far just yet.

I tried flying on short strings when I was flying foils but never enjoyed it. The torque had almost completely vanished as did the fun.
I can understand their use in racing, it makes perfect sense to me but recreationally, no not for me.

I used to fly a minimum of 30m, sometimes 40m. At these lengths the kite is diving through a much larger window of power for longer.

Sure you're going to run wide on turns but who cares if your not competing. If you have the space, drifting is so much fun as is the acceleration out of a turn. The ability to keep your momentum going for longer in light wind and increased stall recovery time are all a benefit of extra length.

Long strings surely equals more fun?

Scroll down here some or click where it says barfinder. It has some comments about line lengths: http://www.northkites.com/products/bars/quad-control/

I agree with RS,
When you buy a new kite and it comes with lines/handles, guess what? THE DESIGNER SPECIFIED THAT LENGTH OF LINES. If you are smarter than the guys designing kites, than go for the other lengths of lines.
As with anything in this world we have to change it just because we can and we have to be different as to stand out. With all that put aside and getting down to brass tacks, stick with the 20m to 30m length the kite was designed to fly at its best.
If you dont have the room then shorten up the lines or find a bigger area to fly. If you need longer lines to get up to the wind then by all means do it.

I have talked to a few of the designers and asked about the line lengths they designed the kites with and they all said basically the same thing I just said a few sentences ago. A good quality kite will fly on any length of line. The problem is when you get to far from the magic length it will not perform as it was designed to.

Short lines are the rule of thumb for racing because long lines take out the competition and react slower than short lines. Short lines make the kite react faster with less power due to the smaller window.

Lets set the parameters of this discussion with a 5m Century Soulfly (the century is an intermediate/race kite) on 25m lines. The wind is blowing 15mph, you are on a dry lake bed and all the room in the world to play.
For most of us this is the top end of our pucker factor. If you decrease the line length by 1/2 the kite will still travel at the same speed as before but the time it is in the power zone will be drastically reduced and it will not deliver the power as before when traveling through the window. If you park and ride, the power goes back to normal. You reduce the power in the turns while keeping the power in the strait runs. With this change you can fly a bigger kite, say a 7m to 9m depending on your skill and the line length, because it is not generating more power through the window. Only on the strait runs.

Now lets double the line length with the above kite. The kite is still traveling at the same speed through the window but it has farther to travel and will now produce more power. The power is reduced on the strait runs depending on the line length but not as much as you would guess.
As with the short lines you can increase the kite size, with long lines you can reduce the kite size. You will generate more power in the turns and the kite will take longer to make the turn by only a fraction of time. The problem is you need to wait a bit longer to make your turn and you will need to do it a bit slower.
So, with a 5m Century Soulfly on 25m lines, in 15mph wind, and on a dry lake bed,
will be the same as a 8m with 12m lines, or a 3m on 50m lines, with the same conditions.
THIS IS ONLY A GUIDE TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE IN LINE LENGTHS. There are always things that will change the outcome like line size, type of kite, and most of all YOU.


I was at SOBB and while most of the guys were out trying to buggy with 12m and larger kites with 18m to 30m lines, I was buggying every where with a 3.5m on 200' lines and thinking about swapping out the kite for a 2m.
At Alvord a few weeks ago Levi and I was having a blast in the buggy with an 8M kite on 200' lines and watching all the others wanting to do something other than static fly. I prefer longer lines to shorter lines if the area will allow it, as for shorter than 20m lines, NOPE.
One big thing to remember with longer lines is that the brake lines need to increase about 12 inches per 100 feet more than the power lines.

I am working on a few new sets of long lines, one set is 70m-400/100lb and 95m-400/100lb, just need some steady wind for a few hours.

Great stuff guys, thank you.

If I'm running in the high 50s or low 60s (best I've done), my biggest concern is the kite rapidly turning backwards which will yank me out painfully most likely, or that the kite will collapse and I'll destroy it if I drag it on the ground or while dragging it, the kite will reinflate behind me and....... well you get the picture. Longer lines increase my reaction time when the kite changes faster than I can react. So far, the kite has never turned and gone behind me. But it has collapsed and fallen to the ground. I've always been able to turn downwind and just keep the lines snug, but not drag the kite and then stop after a full circle around the kite so I am upwind of the kite and can get it sorted out. I tend to like 17-20m lines since they balance performance with my reaction time. This is flying vapors. On HQ Toxics or any depower kite, I fly stock lines. On my large Navigator bar, I fly with the factory extensions installed for the 12m and larger kites for more wind window to turn in and a stabilizing effect the longer lines have. Stock lines on the small bar for the 9m and 6m.

I'm just an average, everyday booger eatin' hick. I' m not pretending to be smarter than the guys who actually do math for a living. My point is that stock length lines may not be ideal for a particular plan form but because the performance difference is typically subtle, there's no real reason to force an added expense into your manufacturing and sales equation for every kite sold. With high end, purpose built race wings, I could feature the custom line length per size kite, if nothing more than as a sales gimmick. For the average trainer or intermediate class wing, even an off-the-shelf, power and pop type gear, I can't see going to the extra expense.

Then again, what do I know? I'm just a booger eatin' hick...

Ken my friend, by no way am I pointing a finger at you. My point was and still is, WE all at some point try to reinvent the mouse trap. Nothing wrong with that, thats how things change and evolve into other things.

I dont know everything and I dont pretend to. Yes, you heard it hear folks. I have spent time asking designers and manufacturers why, how come, and a few other questions. With all the talk, questions, answers, and mostly R and D, I have found out things that do not set well with the general knowledge the kite community knows and lives by.
As you shorten or lengthen the lines of any kite, the kite will not perform as it was intended. Not to say you cant make it work better for you. Every vehicle I have owned has been change to some degree to FIT me, my style, and my need. Kites, buggies, handles, lines, and everything else is no different and has been altered to some degree.
Granted some of the changes have been total disasters and some have been great successes. I have been working on long lines for some time and am at this time working with PKD to rework a few things for the use of longer lines. Not a lot of places in Europe to work on loooong lines with out any problems in the buggy.
Snow kiting is another story, and another topic. While many of the same rules apply, there are a few that dont.

By all means my good friends, explore, rethink, reinvent, and do it your way. My intention is nothing more than to share some basic knowledge to help those of you that will try something different. Discover what has been known, and collect more knowledge so more of us have more to talk about. Been there, done that, ouch, got the boo boo to prove it.
I was asked yesterday "whats the best buggy on the market?" My answer was, "the one that fits you, does what you need it to do and you own." (this topic can start somewhere else):evil:
THERE IS NO BEST LENGTH OF LINES, UNLESS IT WORKS FOR YOU.

Long lines, small kite, high winds, OOOOOOOO BABY!!!!!!!!

greasehopper, we need to talk about the booger eating aspect of your life. The hick part is OK, but the other.........

Awww come on, Jeff. A man's gotta have a vice or two, otherwise life gets pretty boring. Besides, I don't have a dog in the fight, it's purely spit balling and sharing information. In fact, I think clinical discussions are boring as hell and a bit of playful wit is required from time to time just to keep the humanity of it all in play. Brothers and Sisters who really care about each other will poke each other in the ribs occasionally just to make sure they're paying attention because we know it's all in good fun, we know it's gonna come back around at some point and we trust each other not to take silliness personally.

All that aside, short lines have a distinct application as do long lines and neither works well for both. I was taught that designing something to do two things will ensure it doesn't do either one with maximum efficiently. I couldn't agree more that stock bridling works best with stock length lines. I think, in a world of ideals and perfect circumstances, that stock lines are not the very best fit for every wing. This also assumes that the bridling may need to be tweaked a bit to match the optimum line length.

I barely have buggy room to do T&E on short line setups which means I need to rely on everybody else to do the long line testing. I'm good with that because I trust your judgement. Why wouldn't I? If you can't trust Family, who do ya trust?

My boogers, I'll eat 'em if I want to.

According to Ozone, shorter linesets actually create better upwind.

Here's the quote from their Quantum buggy race kite page:

Quote:

"We have designed the Quantum to be flown on 15m Linesets to gain more forward pull and better upwind performance. In very light wind conditions the 13.5 and 11.2 should be used on 20m."

Is this true or am I not reading this correctly? I would think that that one can go upwind better when using longer linesets.

Working efficiently upwind is essentially a drag equation so I could almost buy into that sight unseen. Shorter lines, less drag.

The Forward pull bit I could almost buy into for the same reasons but that's largely dependent on the wing profile and the way it generates power, or more specifically, the concentration of lift forces towards the nose of the foil.

On the subject of lines... I've been thinking of making a line set of some 5m lines to set up on a DIY bar to use my foils on a longboard. I've considered asking the guys at Fixmykite how much they'd charge to make them, but I'd likely do better to get a spool of dyneema and make them myself....

However.... When I search for spools of dyneema line, I come up with dyneema fishing line. For those of you who have made your own line sets, is this the same stuff? What weight do you guys recommend? I'm assuming that sleeving would be a good idea too, eh?

So Greashopper, are those long or short line buggers?

Thanks Jeff, Bob, rtz, Sier_Pinski, RedSky, for this lively discussion. Even Ken Shaw for his indirect input.

Good buggers, errrrrrrr stuff.

The toss up is still open for anyone else to add.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

When I search for spools of dyneema line, I come up with dyneema fishing line. For those of you who have made your own line sets, is this the same stuff?

Scroll down here some and read the part about fishing line:

http://www.awindofchange.com/product/shanti-bulk.html

This has been a great read, and I must admit I have often thought of throwing a set of 30m lines on the 18m Phanny and see what happens. I know it turns a little slow already, but I wondered how much faster I could get the kite down and through the window building speed all the way down, or how much more wind I could find just 10 m up. I have not done it to date, but after seeing Jeff fly his kite on 200 ft lines at SOBB, it had me even more curious.

Quote: Originally posted by rtz

Scroll down here some or click where it says barfinder. It has some comments about line lengths: http://www.northkites.com/products/bars/quad-control/

Interesting that they recommend the longest lines for racing. Might this be due to better traction on the water vs land?

Quote: Originally posted by Sier_Pinski

According to Ozone, shorter linesets actually create better upwind. Here's the quote from their Quantum buggy race kite page: Quote: "We have designed the Quantum to be flown on 15m Linesets to gain more forward pull and better upwind performance. In very light wind conditions the 13.5 and 11.2 should be used on 20m." Is this true or am I not reading this correctly? I would think that that one can go upwind better when using longer linesets.

I was told that a kite on very short lines sits slightly further forward in the window, but not by much. There may be some truth in it.

Maybe a couple of guys or gals on here can do a real world test for us ???

But in all honesty, kite manufacturers who claim good upwind performance are only trying to sell us the most boring direction of travel. No one is going fast upwind like they do downwind. CANNON BALL!! is where it's at :D

it is true that kites on short lines go farther into the window because of less line drag. How much? A few inches. Depending on the line material the drag can be quite a lot or not so much.
In a race it would make a difference but in everyday beach riding or scooting across a dry lake bed, who cares.
In a race you would be dealing with a lot more than line size and line length.

Maybe bow tie prone kites could be tamed flying them on 15m lines?

I've ridden With 20m lines alongside John with 30m lines, same kite same day, the 30m lines were faster due to being able to work the kite more through the power zone.
Proof is here in the video of the day ( 1st section of clip) https://vimeo.com/37044044

Interesting comments guys.

I fly all my foils on 25m lines. Not sure about the Venom to be honest! Its the standard lineset on a '05 navigator bar though.

I mess with line lengths a lot more on my LEIs but I think this is because I can! I have 20 & 24m line sets and 4m and 6m extensions.

I fly my 7.5m on 20's
if its 10kt or less I put the 15m on 30's
The rest of the time i'm on 24's - though I have experimented with 20's at the top end of the larger kites wind range and 26's on the 15 in an effort to get maximum turning speed in light conditions.

my $.02- I typically will fly 40m lineset on my home fields because of the rolling terrain. I have found it really helps with getting to the "cleaner" wind as for being at the beach or areas where the wind is already clean- i use what the designer spec'd. As long as the lines are tight and i am able to roll, I can be happy

Quote: Originally posted by lives2fly

Interesting comments guys. I fly all my foils on 25m lines. Not sure about the Venom to be honest! Its the standard lineset on a '05 navigator bar though.

The nav bar came out several years after the '07 bar had been around. Maybe 2009-10.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

On the subject of lines... I've been thinking of making a line set of some 5m lines to set up on a DIY bar to use my foils on a longboard. I've considered asking the guys at Fixmykite how much they'd charge to make them, but I'd likely do better to get a spool of dyneema and make them myself.... However.... When I search for spools of dyneema line, I come up with dyneema fishing line. For those of you who have made your own line sets, is this the same stuff? What weight do you guys recommend? I'm assuming that sleeving would be a good idea too, eh?

For buggying, go with 200lb line on the top. You can use lower strength on the bottom if you like, but buying one large spool of 200# affords a certain economy of scale.

As to ends, you have a decision to make:

1) If you want to tie your lines, you must either sleeve the ends or use Q-powerline.

2) If you want to splice your lines, get any hollow core line, a music-wire fid, and a good bit of patience. I have spliced 90# line and it is hard work. I have had good results with 150# and up.

3) If you want to stitch your ends, get a sewing machine, a fine needle, a spare presser foot you can cut a groove into, and some very good thread. For thread Dabond 2000 v-46 is good stuff. I tried to do this with 200# Q-powerline and failed. The line was too skinny for the tolerances on my machine. I have had good results with 600# Q-powerline and 600# Q-powerlne Pro.

I have used all of these methods. My favorite is probably 200# Q-powerline, tied. It doesn't get much easier than that. Q-powerline isn't cheap, but you do get what you pay for.

My second favorite is 200# hollow core Spectra spliced with a wire fid. It's not that hard to do, can be field adjustable if you are sneaky, and I have never had a splice break on any line weight. I doubt you could make a line set cheaper than this if money is a concern.

Philip