I currently have a HQ Apex 5.5m and I got a chance to try a 10m some what unsuccessfully, lots of face plants. What should my next kite purchase be to go with my 5.5?

I now have a foot of snow on the lake, I am using skis and weigh about 200 lbs with all my gear on. I have used my 5.5m two times and used the 10m one time, so I am very new to the sport.

8m HQ Apex
11 HQ Apex

Or

8 m Ozone Access
10 m Ozone Access
12 m Ozone Access

I was also maybe considering the Peter Lynn brand also

If there is one thing I have learned over the years, don't stray too far from what you know till you are ready to move in that direction. I have a good friend in the kite business as well, that thinks the same way, if you know how to fly the Apex, then stick with Apex. Better to stick with what you know, especially with little experience then to buy a new kite and have to learn to fly it before you strap on your skis again. If you haven't mastered the Apex yet, turning to a different kite may make your situation more frustrating. Does that make any sense

My suggestion is to get the 8m Apex so that you have most of your winds covered and you don't have to re learn a different kite.

If you are able to demo a ozone access do it to compare.
Try it before you buy it.

.... very good advice above ... 5.5m ... now if u get 8m next step would be 11 or 12m that you probably use most when all skills are mastered ...

I am a little hesitant in the 8m the 10m barely moved me the other day although the snow slush conditions where horable.

I say that 10m will serve you better. Unless your winds are typically strong.

If you are face planting on skis there is something very wrong about your approach ? Or are you actually getting yanked over the side of the skis ?

The wind was gusty, I was getting yanked over my skis on the gusts. The slush was freezing to the bottom of my skis acting like brakes on my skis, insted of my skis sliding I went sliding. At least that is what I think was happening, I had no problem two weeks ago before the snow and slush was on the lake.

One minute there was no wind to lean into the harness the next with out warning I was on my face!

see my comments on your other thread (Is my kite too big? Suggestions) - deep slush is by far the worst for conditions - it's glue. You'll be on your face all the time and it takes way more power to get through and going from snow to slush will put the brakes on. And every time you take a ski off you'll have to scrape the bottoms of your skis boots off to get back into bindings. It's your conditions you won't be able to control speed and it's tough on knees doing the stop and go.

Are the winds mainly gusty.

Susan (npw goddess)

10 to 15 mph winds or no wind is normal, usually it is not this gusty. It has been a weird seasin so far this year, we dont normally have this much snow this early.

I would go with a 10m higher aspect kite like the Montana. As a general rule, I find higher aspect kites better in low wind and lower aspect kites better in high wind. A 10m Montana will produce more power/speed/lift than a 10m Apex in the same wind conditions.

If the winds aren't gusty, you are way better off with a higher A/R 10m and given your weight, I would not suggest an 8m. It is going to leave you too underpowered in 10-15mph. Again, given your weight, a 12m would be better in those winds but then you have quite a gap between that and your 5.5

I think a better quiver for you would be a 12/7 combo. I'm 145#s and my goto kite is my 10m from 11+ mph and below that I'm on my 14m. You have close to 60 pounds on me and are thinking of an 8m. Its not going to get you going in the winds you describe unless the surface is super packed or frozen.

I think you want to ask yourself if jumping is something you want to work toward or avoid.

If jumps are in your future then B-roc is right on about going higher aspect like Montana , Frenzy etc. The Apex is a low lift kite. You can jump with them but other models are better designed for the task.

I didn't see your other post about the conditions. Sticky snow can be a problem. Whenever I am dealing with power I bend my knees and get small. It helps keep your feet out in front of you and your center of balance as low as possible.

Like others have said. You need to run slightly down wind on the first power dive of the kite to build up speed. Trying to cut cross / upwind with the second pump. If you are struggling for power then you must ~ sine the kite. Edge against the power in the power stroke and coast ( downwind if required ) along as you reset the kite. You will end up making ~ tracks as you edge and release while avoiding losing speed. Hopefully you gain more upwind on the power stroke than you lose on the glide.

Once you are into the kites proper wind range you can just set the kite at the edge to " park and ride ". The trick here is to not cut upwind so much that you lose speed. If you lose speed you must dive the kite and run more downwind to build it up again. If you keep losing speed you are trying too hard to get upwind. If you have enough wind to park and ride easily , you have enough to try jumps. :bouncing::bouncy::bouncing:

With 10 - 15 winds a 10m is great. Any smaller would leave you wanting for more . You may even want a larger kite down the road !

I agree with Mark on the slush and with broc on the 10 meter Montana or Frenzy until the winds have you reaching for a 5m. If you had winds of 10-12 you could even go with a 12 m. Wait on some colder conditions with powder and it will be a much better experience.

Quote: Originally posted by B-Roc

I would go with a 10m higher aspect kite like the Montana. As a general rule, I find higher aspect kites better in low wind and lower aspect kites better in high wind. A 10m Montana will produce more power/speed/lift than a 10m Apex in the same wind conditions. If the winds aren't gusty, you are way better off with a higher A/R 10m and given your weight, I would not suggest an 8m. It is going to leave you too underpowered in 10-15mph. Again, given your weight, a 12m would be better in those winds but then you have quite a gap between that and your 5.5 I think a better quiver for you would be a 12/7 combo. I'm 145#s and my goto kite is my 10m from 11+ mph and below that I'm on my 14m. You have close to 60 pounds on me and are thinking of an 8m. Its not going to get you going in the winds you describe unless the surface is super packed or frozen.

I am contemplating getting an Ozone Summit as a possible depower kite. I have the same reported gustiness that Chrisz mentioned. It's currently a bit difficult--but not impossible--to landboard with my 5M fixed-bridle Octane in the area I kite in. Am I OK with a high AR depower or will I be better off with a lower-aspect kite such as the Access/Apex instead?

When choosing a kite look at what people in similar gusty areas ride. Coastal gusty is a few knots difference while in areas like the mountains and inland lake gust factor is usually double the base wind factor. I don't agree in moving a beginner from a 5m low AR intermediate kite to a high AR advanced kite that's twice as big. It doesn't make sense. There's a reason for the intermediate sizes. She wasn't under powered, the issue was missing the slush factor in the site assessment.

In the gusty the Apex is an excellent kite and in the hands of an advanced rider it can do 90% of anything as higher performance, higher AR kite can do. The Access and the Lynx fall into this area as well. Most beginner/intermediate snow kiters here are on either the Apex or Access. Between the two kites cost was usually the deciding factor.

Higher AR, higher performance kites require more skill and more attention because with the higher performance comes higher instability. If you want better upwind ability a higher AR can get that. But you have to ask yourself , are you getting the full upwind performance out of the kite you have now? The Apex, for it's AR has excellent upwind ability in the right hands. Higher AR will give you better glide and lift but it will also make you venerable to lofting if you let your guard down in the gusty.

As beginners it will be a long time before your skillsets out pace the performance of touring kites.

An Apex, Access or Lynx 5-11 quiver will handle almost anything you could run into. Chrisz already has a 5m Apex. It's a kite she's familiar with and a kite that's suitable for her experience level and designed to work well in the conditions she's described. I don't like to over think things I go with what works and the obvious choice to me is just fill out the quiver with what you already have. All the same handling. Bars are all cross compatible. Safety systems are all identical.

Easy peasy.:D

I will have another shot at the 10m and a 8m over the holiday's, I have joind the the local club and have access to the club kites, unfortunately the only kites they have are HQ mostly the Apex due to cost.

I usualy don't buy the bottom of the line products because that is usually what is you get. I dont have enough experience yet to know what is good or bad, most people are telling me that Ozone is a better quality kite, if that is true that is where I want to spend my money.

At this point in time I am not looking for any lift so I will stay with the touring kites. Unfortunately I cant get time off during the day when the university students who run the club can go out so I need to buy my own kites to use on the weekends

I use my 10m Access 95% of the time on snow and before that used a 12m LEI. I would think 8m is too small in 10-15mph. I would definately want a 10 and I'm 160-170lbs

I would thouroughly recommend the Access. You can't really fault it. The build quality is very good compared to the Apex - the Apex control gear is particularly crappy. Having said that the Apex is an OK kite and flies pretty well. Cost is about the only advantage it has over the Access though.

As for lift, the access will jump fine for an average rider - particularly off kickers - and its stability makes it good for learning

So everyone talks about stability, what exactly do you mean?

So the kite I have for the most part flys its self all I am doing is redirecting the kite to where I want it, or looping it to get more power.

So what does a unstable kite do? And why would you want one?

Higher aspect ratio kites prefer smooth winds to fly "stable" they will fold at the tips, be twerky, and sometimes just crumble into a ball in gusty, non clean winds. Lower aspect ratio kites tend to handle gusty, inland, punchy, not clean wind just a little bit better.

Hope that helps

HQ build quality is no where near the bottom..i would buy their kites anytime (again)..and be very happy

To answer your question why someone would want a higher aspect ratio is that the kite will build speed faster creating more power and/or lift.

Lets get something clarified here. HQ kites are not, I repeat NOT "bottom of the barrel" in regards to quality in construction or how they fly. There is no lack of expert level riders that use the Apex as a foul condition kite.

And admittedly there was a time in the beginning (10yrs +)when HQ equivalents to Ozones were considerably lower quality and they had pricing to match it. For a lot of people that's all they could or can afford and it allowed people who otherwise wouldn't have been able to get into the sport, access to snowkiting. People who disregard HQ's these days because they're low quality haven't taken a close look at HQ's lately.

As Chrisz said, "So the kite I have for the most part flys its self all I am doing is redirecting the kite to where I want it, or looping it to get more power." Ummm, is it just me or is this pretty much what one looks for in a kite?

Here's a question. What does the Access do that the Apex doesn't? We sell both, buyers of both are very happy with their respective kites. Be vary wary of brand loyalty in the kite world. A lot of people bash brands or models without having any real experience on them.

In response to the comment about the control system on the HQ, I agree it is pretty clunky. Not nearly as pretty as the Ozone. Does this mean the kite as a whole is garbage? The bar system that comes with the Flysurfer Psycho 4 SA looks like it was made by an 8th grader. But it's still a quality high end kite.

I don't know. If you don't want a "bottom of the barrel" depow you should start shopping for a Peter Lynn Arc or Flysurfer Speed. Don't waste your $$$ on Ozone or HQ.

Seriously tho, nobody is making bad kites these days. As a beginner, one who is borrowing (and likely beating up) kites as you are just starting out I would just be psyched to fly anything I could get my hands on. FLy the kites, learn how they perform and continue to focus on building my skills.

When I started out I wasn't picky, I grabbed whatever I could get my hands on a flew the hell out of it. Even though I'm sponsored by Peter Lynn I still try to get my hands on all kinds of kites. It's hard to have an educated opinion on something without try it first hand.

Ozone was very early into the Depower foil game and came from a Para glider background so had high standards and a loyal follwing. Flysurfer wasn't far behind and also has Para glide background. A few others like North an JN were making some good quality kites as well. PL's arcs were also well made. JoJo, Gin and many brands were making high quality foils.

HQ came in a few years after the others had made their mark and came from a stunt kite background. From what I gather they are not all that well liked a stunt kite brand around here ? I think HQ's strategy coming in was to build a decent quality kite but to keep costs / prices down. They met a less than receptive market. Brand Loyalty had already set in. They fought an uphill battle but HQ is making extremely good kites and getting / deserve respect .

Pansh came in and filled that bottom rung. Pansh has worked at improving and the prices of their most recent models reflects that. Still , HQ has gained my FULL respect and Pansh, not so much. I think it is the company that reflects your Pay less, get less logic.

If you want the most spendy , techy but high quality kites . Look at Flysurfer.

Lower aspect kites like the Apex fly more stable as a rule. They sit a bit farther back, are a bit slower and hold shape better. Higher aspect kites are faster and more twitchy. Wanting to fly far into the window , folding tips and such. Being Faster etc. they have better lift .

I did not mean to bash HQ I have had absolutely no problem with my kite, at this stage it is all operator error. I am so new to the sport I have no opinion on what makes a good or bad kite nor do I have a loyalty to any brand. I am just going off what others opinions are and take everything with a grain of salt.

Sticking to what I already know is good advice, but I am always open to something new. The single skin Peter Lynn is intreaging for the relatively low wind coditions we have here in Duluth Minnesota. I hate to steer too far from the common tried and trusted beginner kites without being able to talk to some one who is experienced and can give a fair opinion on how a particular kite would work for me or not work for me.

The Power Kite Forum has been an awesome place to ask questions and get advice! I cant kite during the work week so the next best thing to do is talk about kitting.

I hope you didn't think we were jumping on you. I understand exactly where your question comes from and it's a good one !

I think the big point here is that most reputable kite companies put out a decent product. That brand loyalty is huge and like you already know, take all opinions with a grain of salt .

All is good in kite world! I love a good opinionated discussion it shows the passion every one has for the sport.

I got to get my friends and coworkers here at home on a kite, they all think I am nuts, they dont understand why it is so fun! I like the challenging sports that require skill and technique and speed! If it where easy I think I would get board of it quickly.

imo….friends/coworkers never show up and "get it"so get use to going it alone..sticking to what you know is great advice for sure but it doesn’t work like that..it's also good to fly a 1000 diff kites..all of us get the eye for a kite and have to have it..for me it was a flysurfer couldn’t sleep well till I owned one…none of us have money for another kite but it’s gonna happen anyway so get use to that as well..but the truth is soon kites will find you and you don't have to chase them..and those are the best ones they are like little wins

Ditto what abkayak said. I thought I was the only one that couldn't get friends and coworkers interested.

I got my girlfriend interested, but nobody else yet.

Quote: Originally posted by abkayak

none of us have money for another kite but it’s gonna happen anyway so get use to that as well..

:embarrased: