Buggy/static = handles
ATB = Bar

That simple. more control with the handles, so better in the bug or static where you always have 2 free hands, If riding an ATB, then the free hand can be very helpful for handling the board.

Form follows function.

Bars limit steering control.
Handles allow more manueverability.

Bars work with de-power systems and sails.
Handles allow independant trailing edge flap control of airfoils.

Both allow the rider to harness in.
Both are appropriate when used with the right system.


Using a bar on a fixed-bridle foil is akin to hauling plywood with a Corvette.
You can do it, but it ignores reality.
Using your Corvette to haul sheets of plywood doesn't make it a pick-up.

Bars and handles are not a matter of opinion.
There are some serious aerodynamic aspects to consider.
If the bar limits the ability of a foil to increase power (byproduct of the lack of maneuverability), the flyer is forced to go out over-powered.
This greatly increases the risk while flying on land.

In the marketplace, too often, the bar is used as a gimmick to convince newbies that there isn't so much to learn.
A BAR will take care of you?

But that gets me going in another direction.

Bottom line?
Skills and knowledge, not any gear, is the only way you can protect yourself.
Use the control method that is appropriate to the kite you are flying, not because of someone's opinion or because it looks cool.

I don't know.
I've only been doing this for 30-some years.
Maybe the Laws of Physics have changed since I was a lad.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

Corey... I'm a little confused about your post.

Companies have designed kites like the HQ Beamer TSR's and the Ozone Samurai for using with a 4 line bar. The manueverability isn't the same as handles, however, the kites do handle well and the bar setups are that if you do wish to apply brake you can. Granted, these setups aren't always as easy as switching on brakes while using handles, however, most all bars do come with kite killers of some sort in design.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read your post to state that kites like the Beamer TSR's and Samurai's are ignoring reality as you put it? And therefore cause the kites to be over-powered increasing risk.?.

On the other hand, taking a 4 line kite and setting it up as a two line kite (like I have seen many companies mention you can do) in order to get your kite to work with a bar..well I find that to be insane as you're flying a kite without brakes or any type of safety. It's either on or off..nothing inbetween. Similar to driving a car without brakes..you're fine when you want to stop driving it if you can find enough level ground to ride it out to a stop, but who knows what is going to happen inbetween getting started and attempting to finish.
At this point I can see how the company is advertising being able to use the bar as a gimmick rather then a tool.
~Joe

Joe,
I don't mean to imply there is some comspiracy or plot or anything untowards.
I am expressing OPINION, not fact.

I guess I come at his game from being a kiter.

I understand the great pressure the marketplace uses to expand the sport and the industry.
On land or on the water, we are controlling two separate devices.
The Kite and the Board or Buggy.

Making it seem easier makes great marketing sense.

Most of us have childhood memories of kites and as humans tend to access memory first when confronted by something out of the ordinary, say "Oh kites. I flew them when I was a kid. I already know about kites."

I am afraid that might be a dangerous assumption.
These are not our Grandpa's kites.

I don't want to perpetuate the myth that a "bar" is all it takes to make controlling power kites "easy".
Skills and knowledge.
Knowledge of the power potential of the airfoil you're flying can most easily occur if the kite is rigged to perform to its potential.
Not if that potential is hidden by a "gimmick" that seems to be "the way everyone else was doing it" or "the manufacturer sells them that way".

A couple of years ago a post to the "wanted" list was for an Ozone Frenzy bar so the seeker's fixed-bridle foil would de-power like the Frenzy.

I realize I'm speaking in generalities and using stereotypes.
I am trying to make a point.

One I don't hear being spoken in the marketplace.
In the Science of Marketing, the only way to succeed is to make the sale.
Education doesn't cause the customer to pay more.
Sometimes exactly the opposite happens, when the customers better understands what they're getting into.

So whenever the Bar/Handle question pops up... I rise to the bait.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

Corey..thanks for the reply.

Was curious as I had a Ozone Little Devil4.5, and my current 5m Beamer TSR and HQ Crossfire 6.3 all of which I flew on bars. While the Crossfire has more and better control on handles, if the winds are right I'll fly the bar. If the winds aren't steady or feel a bit too strong I'll opt for the handles for reasons of more control. Having learned both I tend to base my decisions on what I use to fly with on a conditions, etc. This isn't to say that I don't have a preference..I'd prefer the bar option over handles as I feel more comfortable with the bar for what I use my kites for.

I do agree..that kiters should be more informed and gain the knowledge they need to make not only the right decision..but a well informed and safe decision when making their purchases. When I first came back to the sport last fall, I probably would've asked the same question..."can a depower bar make a kite depowerable".

Forum's like this one amongst others have definitely shedded a different light on the sport than when these types of forums were not around. Starting off and not knowing the first thing, no one to ask, etc. you tend to get pretty beat up.

"... Getting beat up..." Ain't that the truth.

I began with a stack of Flexi 6'ers on a bar (included 3' wood dowel with dacron string) and boy did we get beat up.

Two-line stacks of power kites.
No de-power (what?), no brakes, hardly convenient, nobody else to watch and learn from, 150' line sets were the norm.

Moved on to handles immediately.
And bigger stacks.

Had a 37 stack in 1980
Hand-flew a 50 stack in 1981.

Figuring that one out was the challenge.
Anchors are for sissies...

But much of what I do now is based on the experiences I've had as I've learned more and kept paying attention.

My Mom says if I learned from ALL my mistakes, I'd be Einstein by now.

I don't want unwary beginners to see what we do and try to mimic our actions without the benefit of knowing for themselves what the implications might be.

It isn't about what I know or what you know...
It should be about helping newbies get started the right way.

Focus on knowledge and skills.
Instead of the seemingly unending marketing hype.

I'm not condemming marketing either.
Heck... I've been in the kite business since 1977.
I just want both Sciences to be heard - Marketing and Aerodynamics.

Thanks for a good discussion of the issues.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

I have a beamer 3.6 and a Crossfire 3.2 and ATB a lot is a bar right for me or are the kites to small for this?

Thanks:?::?::?::?::?::?::puzzled::puzzled::puzzled:

Small kites can be flown on bars. HQ makes the Beamer 3.6m TSR specially rigged to be flown with a bar. The bridal setup on the TSR is the what is rigged differently then its counter part Beamer sold with handles. The different bridal setup on the TSR optimizes bar control, however, it's still slower in turns then handles and you still loose some of the control that you have with the handles.

Being that smaller kites usually travel pretty quickly, and are flown in higher winds by most, I would recommend sticking to the handles on those two kites.

The crossfire (in any size) is pretty similar to the Beamer as it likes to travel quickly..the downside to this is that the crossfire isn't nearly as forgiving at the edge of the wind window and will surpass the window causing the kite to fold / bowtie. Also the crossfire is a pretty wind picky kite to begin with, flown best in clean and stable winds, adding a bar to the combination may make your experiences more frustrating then fun.

Trust me with the crossfire statements..I've been flying mine (a 6.3m) with a bar and just decided this past sunday to try converting to the depower setup. Have yet to test it, but if it doesn't work the way I want it to or consumes me with too much tweeking to get it just right, I'll be going straight back to handles...also, I snowkite and landboard too. Plenty of people do both with handles and excel at the sports too..so don't begin to think that you can't do either without using a bar.

Save yourself some frustration and master the boarding using the handles..ecspecially with those two kites in that size in high winds.
Just my .02 worth, hope it helps some..
Joe

Do you have any pics of the hand flown 50 stack? That would be cool to see. And how long did the torn rotator cuff take to heal?You have big cajones my man.

WP,
Flew the stacks back in the day - 1980-1981 - and it was sensational.

Most assume it is a matter of strength and courage, or perhaps stupidity and ignorance.
Our challenge, right from the start, was to figure out how to fly the big stacks by hand - without undue risk or injury.
We figured using a pulley off an anchor was too "brawn" and not enough "brain".

So we analyzed the problem and came up with a pretty simple and elegant solution... We spent the day rigging and watching the winds drop until about 3:00 in the afternoon, with the winds down to about 5-6 mph and decreasing.
Launched the stack, flew loops left and right, maintained controlled flight for over 15 minutes, by which time the winds were down to about 3 mph and keeping the stack going was becoming more of a struggle than a pleasure so the flight ended.

I'd guess no more than 2/3 of the stack was locked-in during the flight.
Some of them, particulary on the bottom end of the stack, stayed inverted the entire time.

Sorry I didn't take any pictures.
I had my hands full.

I have seen a couple snapshots taken by others, but nobody was documenting what we were doing.
Didn't really think about that.
The shots were of the stack in flight, not the crew or set-up.

We were adults, playing with kites.
Back when that was still a bit weird.

I remember thinking that what we were doing was a bit sneaky.
That appealed to me as well.

Of course, I'm grown-up now.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama