I wanted to get some thoughts on safety and a horrible scenario with regards to kite skiing on frozen lakes: Breaking through ice with skis on.

The idea is to be safe by avoiding such a situation and be on solid ice..... but in case you hit thin ice and go in the water-you better have a plan and safety tool(s).

Yes, I test ice and chop holes. I wear ice picks.

But things can still go wrong...so....

First.....by comparison.....If you break through with ice skates on you can swim w/ ice skates on...get to ice shelf and try to get up and out.


But..... breaking through w/ skis on is a whole different situation. Try and swim or tread water. Forget it.... I think you gotta get off those skis quick(or snow board...OMG!). How easy to get out of your ski(or board) bindings.... or if you can't quickly....or can't see, or can't work bindings in the water may have some great importance for survival.

I wonder if anyone has taken a winter plunge through ice w/ skis or snowboard on?

Wonder what others safety plan and gear is for accidental plunge is?

My skis would be lost to lakebed, but better them than me if I heed to get them off to get out.

Thoughts?

water ramps

they can't jump, but looks like they can swim with floatation.

I wear a Dakine impact / floatation harness when I have the least bit of doubt about ice conditions.
Not a perfect solution but at least I have some flotation if I go in ?

Ice picks / claws. I don't go on the ice without them. I made my own out of a bungee, some long nails, drilled out corks (for handles) and tubing for covers on the sharp ends. But if you want to buy them, here is an example. Just get to the edge and stab them into the ice and let your hands freeze to them if you can't pull yourself out. At least that way you want slip under.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=26280 , going thru the ice video posted by Chris K. . Three years ago one of my guys on skis came down hard after a jump and popped thru warm spring ice, a good flyer and not very windy , he brought the kite hard thru the wind window and popped back out. I usually carry picks (bungee removed) rubber banded to my upper arms , I figure I could have one hand on the ice deck and reach for a pick with the other. I really think the best option is to keep the kite flying and use it for self rescue anything else is going to be rough. I'm thinking too that really pushing it early and late season a wet suit and a whistle could be life saving.

Your assuming best case scenario. That you can pick , push and pull out within hands reach of where you went in.

To clarify the scenario I'm thinking of (worst case)....You're in a wider open water circle or just a skim ice circle, and you need to swim a bit, smash through the skim while treading water as you try to get over to a solid shelf where you can use your ice tongs.... but you have skis on.

The only time I ever went in was w/ ice skates on and I had to smash through the thin ice skim across about six feet while treading water to get to the thicker shelf. And I just rolled on and pushed up while kicking a bit- without needing to use ice picks. How would I have done that with skis on? I just don't know. Imagine if I had to swim even farther with or without the thin ice skim having skis and boots dragging me down.

Cut and print.

If you're kiting on ice, the kite is your first best chance of rescue, self or otherwise and keeping your skis on is critical.

Skis not only spread you load but they also allow you to maintain control of the kite once you extracted yourself form the water back onto the ice surface. On bigger bodies of water you have to be able to cross some distances to get back to the launch. Ditch the skis and you ditch your ability to do this. Earlier this year a kiter went through the ice in a spot that was thinned by the current. In the process he lost his skis and was trying to walk in hard soled boots on glass ice, kite under arm, in fairly high winds and a wind chill about -10f. He was only a mile from his anchor but it was too far to get back, at the rate he could move, before hypothermia set it.

Fortunately some other kiters found him and towed him in. Last season a kiter went though up North and was in the water for 15 minutes before he self rescued. He had to body drag a long way to get to supporting ice. After that he still had 8 miles to get back to his anchor and a warm car. No way he would have made it without skis and even if his phone had survived the ordeal there wasn't any coverage in that area or anyway to get rescue personnel in quickly enough.

The key is not to panic if you go through. In the more dedicated members of the local snowkite community experience has been that if properly dressed the cold shock factor is pretty low when going through on a kite. Good technical clothing will slow water ingress and maintain floatation by virtue of the air trapped inside your clothing. So fortunately you don't always experience the cold shock and that helps keep you that level head.

Ski boots liners are comprised mostly of closed cell foam. Most body armor is as well (knee and elbow pads for example) and this also aids in floatation.

No doubt bobbing in a hole in the ice feeling for the bottom with your ski tip is a sucky feeling. But you can self rescue with the kite as long as you keep the kite in the air.

Check out our ice safety page for videos of self rescue with and without a kite. The video of the kite self rescue is from some helmet cam footage from last season when I went through on Sebago. The few times any of us have gone through it was usually expected and measures were taken. Last year when I went through was a fluke. We always say to know before you go and I asked the local kiters and fishermen and slednecks what the conditions were like and there were snow machines riding the area I went through just 2 days before and kiters in the same spot the day before. Just like any backcountry experience, you can have all the intel in the world and still get caught in an avalanche. Or go through the ice.

Know the ice before you go on it. There's no substitution for checking it yourself. Don't be lazy about it, check it a lot. We teach mostly on ice, we're independently insured to teach on ice (IKO insurance doesn't cover snow kiting instruction or riding on ice) and to be sure we have the best safety margin we monitor and do site inspections all winter long. We're lucky enough to have a large snowkite community that helps out in this as well a some of the snowmobile and ice fishing community.

Take a look at our ice safety page. It gives some very basic info without going into ice dynamics etc.

http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/ice-safety-information.html

For a killer one stop source for ice technical information Bob Dill's page is great. Seriously a great resource for any ice user.

http://lakeice.squarespace.com/

So you don't feel skis and ski boots may create a desperate situation where you not just can't swim.. but can't keep keep your head above water...if you have no flotation vest, body armor or other buoyancies..?

In reading through this, I'm still convinced that the best thing to do is avoid early and late year sessions. I haven't fallen through the ice since I was a kid and I don't think the giggles I get from kiting are worth it. I'd just assume not session than drown or freeze to death.

Thanks for the lake ice link, I thought I knew a fair amount about ice and it turns out there is still much to learn about!

I also just don't kite on ice when it is not thick enough to drive on - quite the safety margin there. In winter if I'm not kiting I'm ice fishing. So I get to evaluate ice conditions at much lower speeds regularly with my fishing sled which floats, and contains among other things a portable heater that could save me in the event of getting soaked.

The snowblades I've been riding a lot these days I can take off easily as they have a totally different binding - I'm sure I could take them off with my other ski/boot if I had to, in fact! Real ski bindings I'm not so sure.

Feyd's tale of someone needing their skis to get home is interesting. It's definitely a good reason to try to keep your skis on! Especially out here where you may be the only person for 20 miles (at least!). I don't kite in remote areas alone for that reason.

Our ice gets RIDICULOUS thick though around here, 2 feet is thin ice in January, so once it gets a good freeze the practical risk is near zero until the thaw comes.

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington

So you don't feel skis and ski boots may create a desperate situation where you not just can't swim.. but can't keep keep your head above water...if you have no flotation vest, body armor or other buoyancies..?

No. Obviously if you go through the ice with a ski or worse yet and snowboard without any sort of protection you are in a desperate situation. Anytime you can't keep your head above water is a desperate situation.

I'm saying that if properly equipped the situation becomes much more manageable. If you get caught in a slide on Mt. Washington you are in a desperate situation. But if you carry some level of protection, a beacon, airbag etc... the likely hood of surviving the incident is much greater. You fall out of a plane you're in a desperate situation. You fall out with a parachute the risk is reduced but not eliminated.

I know a guy out in Minnesota who puts a Switchblade on one of his kite boards. He rides on the ice sheet, into the water and back onto the ice, smoothly transitioning from an ice environment to water and back. Now, if he decides to stop in the water is his situation desperate? No because he's well equipped, experienced and prepared.

B-Roc nails it. If you want to reduce your risk stay off the ice at the early and late seasons. Reduce it further by paying close attention to the weather, especially during the days prior to heading onto the ice. Get local first hand reports or better yet ride with people who ride the area regularly and know the places to avoid.


When in doubt don't go out.

Good advice all! Remember one very important thing about early and late season ice. It changes quickly. Yesterday's ice is not today's ice and at times this morning's ice is not this afternoon's ice. Late season ice with a high sun changes very quickly.

Exactly Ted. For example, last season when I went through was just 2 days after snowmobiles had been crossing the same area without any issues. Even though my incident wasn't technically late season, the ice I was on formed late and was exposed directly to the weather during an unusual warm spell. The late season ice can change by the minute especially if it turns to candle ice. Then all bets are off.

Okay...understand the 'don't go out if in doubt' principal.

But the whole point of this thread is the unexpected. Why we wear helmets and carry ice picks- anyways and always. I wanted to consider additional precaution and more mitigating of ANY risk while kite skiing. I wanted to see what others carry, how they prepare, or handle this particular of unexpected scenario-if it occurs.


The Skiing on Mt Washington analogy( backcountry alpine skiing) is a good one in discussing the 'Only go if conditions are such-but be prepared' principal -in that even though you may skiing in the safest of general conditions...you still should be prepared and equipped. So- continuing- if you are skiing the Gulf of Slides in LOW avalanche conditions...it's still wise to be carrying avalanche beacon and shovel, not be alone, etc. Though smaller in chance....it still might avalanche in your travels.

You may be able to drive car on the ice but you still may encounter an open spring /stream outlet of thin ice /snow over it....and you break thru. Maybe you were careless...maybe it was just so hidden or unexpected? You get what I'm saying at this point(I hope).

Anyway...gleaned a little bit from discussion..... thanks.

Be safe everone.