Should a seller of a product be responsible for the loss of that product in the mail? Here’s the story: Last September, I ordered a Blokart for $1973 from A Wind of Change, a seller of power kites, Blokarts and other sports equipment in Salt Lake City, Utah. They said that the Blokart package was too large to be sent by Priority Post to my Armed Forces Post Office (APO). So they sent the package via Parcel Post, the cheapest and slowest possible mail option at USPS, although I had given them sufficient funds for better mail. They did not offer me the option of paying extra for Fed-ex which I would have gladly done. However, they did purchase postal insurance for the Blokart.
Months went by and the Blokart never arrived. I imagine it was lost or stolen by a postal worker. Parcel Post is virtually untraceable and postal workers can open such parcel when they want. Hence, they are very easy to steal. After the required 75 days of waiting, I applied for insurance reimbursement from USPS. A Wind of Change was pleasant at first and provided me with the documentation I needed. And I would get the insurance money from the post office, wouldn’t I? Not so! The post office denied my claim for insurance and never told me why, despite the fact that I have contacted them many times to discover why. So that just shows that USPS insurance has no value and is just a waste of money.
I have asked A Wind of Change for a refund. However, they dismissed my request, saying they do not want to take the loss. However, they don’t seem to mind if one of their customers takes a double loss of both blokart and money. If Kent and Daelyn Kingston at A Wind of Change actually valued their reputation and customers, they would make that refund. What do you think? Should I, the customer, on a worker’s salary, absorb the loss of nearly $2000?
I leave it up to you whether you should buy from A Wind of Change knowing that if anything goes wrong with your shipment, you, not them, are going to pay.

That sounds like a bad scenario all around, I'm sorry man. I'd stick on USPS because it sounds like they are definitely in the most fault here.

The one time I've bought from Kent he was very nice and helpful.

Is there no legal recouse against the post office. If mail was stolen then mail fraud was committed and that is a federal offense. Surely there must be some recourse other than the vendor and customer to address the loss of such an expensive item.

Not sure how it was set up but I have found that it is still my responsibility as a dealer untill it is delivered. I have had to run down a few lost in space items myself.
I hope it works out for both of you. I have had to pay for others mistakes more than once. Thats why I have a day job, it costs me money to run a kite business.:o
(just dont tell my wife), did I say that out loud? Opps.

I don't know about US law but in the UK if you distance buy anything (online/ mail order etc) and you pay via your credit card then you are covered by your card insurance for the full amount. also it is the seller responcability to make sure the item is delivered not the customers. therefore AWOC should be chasing up the none delivery and not you. the credit card company would just take the money back from them at the end of the day.

From the FedEx web site...
"FedEx cannot deliver to PO boxes or to PO box ZIP codes in the US, including
US military PO box addresses such as APO and FPO. ... "

Unfortunately your order presents an untenable obstacle for any dealer in the world. I would have regrettably refused and refunded the order in the first place. AFO/ FPO orders can only be handled by USPS and when I ship there (I have a lot), I ship only by trackable and insurable means such as Priority or Express Mail.

I applaud Kent and Daelyn for even trying to fill the order. I might suggest, considering the amount of the claim, to contact your local home state congressman's office for assistance with the claim.

Same reason I won't ship to South America unless I ship through a commercial freight forwarder (usually out of Miami) that takes responsibility for the package end-to end, and that is at considerable cost to the purchaser.

Sorry for the trouble, though, That really sux.

Having dealt with A Wind of Change AND the APO/FPO, Your frustration is probably somewhat misplaced. AWOC is a great dealer and highly regarded among the kiting community. I've purchased from them before and would not hesitate to do so again. APO/FPO and our Postal Service is another matter and you need to understand the unique relationship there. The USPS delivers parcels/letters bound for APO/FPO address to the service points controlled by the military. Once there, the military takes responsibility for the transport and delivery to the Postal Service Center at your respective station.

Most often the APO/FPO system fails when the shipper accidentally puts the country on the address. like APO AE 00000, Italy.
That causes the package to exit the APO system and puts you into whichever country's customs limbo. I had a computer part float around in Italian customs for several months.

If you're getting push back from the post office on the insurance, ask for Kent's assistance in filing the claim with the post office first and then reshipping once the claim is paid. If the Post Office produces proof of delivery to the APO/FPO, then the Postal Service Center becomes your claim point.

The APO/FPO works hard but the USPS tries to disclaim everything once it's in the military postal systems' hands..

Good post riff!!!!

As well. Nothing but pleasant transactions in the past from Kent and Daelyn too.

OP, I can feel for your frustration......

Disappointing to hear of your situation.

I found the WOC people very friendly when I ordered a package to Australia , mine arrived so I have no complaints.

These days I mostly order local, as consumer laws here have more weight. Ie if it's not delivered its the senders problem period. They purchase the insurance so they claim on it. PLUS if an item is worth more than $100 dollars I insist on tracking and a signature upon delivery, that covers both the sender and receiver. Whilst tracking and delivering to PO boxes isn't an issue in Australia as you can't get your PO box item ( package) unless you walk into the post office and ask for it over the counter, I believe thieves are less likely to steal an item when it's being checked every step of thhe way.

As far as the US goes the USPS post is woeful, it disappears once it leaves your shores until it ends up at your doorstep/PO box. UPS however is brilliant, tracking all the way, and gets here in about 4 days. ( probably cost more than the item is worth to send some things that way though)
Independent delivery trucking agents here most will only cover for a small amount so you must have the appropriate insurance, it adds to the cost but.....
End result, always insist on the dealer sending it the the way you want it in your order. I know that doesn't help your situation, but for others it might.

Over here I would be advising the dealer that the issue was their responsibility, and for them to make the claim on their insurance ( even though you pay for the insurance to the dealer,they are the agent who purchases it from the deliverer ) I don't know how US consumer affairs works unfortunately.

FedEx and UPS leave much to be desired at times too. My last 4 out of 5 shipments have been dicked up. The latest is my new Sleep Number controller that has been to four different cities in my state, and its not from logistic ease either

FedEx + Ups = Fedups

I digress......

You have given me some useful info. Especially the info about it being the seller's responsibility until a shipment is delivered. Some points:
1. I have a physical address also. So Fed-ex could have delivered to that.
2. The delivery never reached the military APO system. When it does, it is recorded on the tracking info. This never happened.
3. The US post office has washed their hands of this matter despite my insurance. And they take great pains not to be contactable. Just as A Wind of Change appears to have washed their hands of it. I only get snarky one-sentence replies when I contact them. A seller might appear nice when things are going well. Just wait until you have problems to see if they really want to help their customers. AWOC appears not to care at all.

Mike,

I am very sorry that you have decided to take this publicly. When you said in your email that you were going to blast every kite forum and try to smear our reputation, I hoped that you would let us get this resolved but obviously you have chosen to do otherwise. Unfortunately this still does not get the post office to work any faster in resolving this claim. We have been in contact with you many times via e-mail regarding this issue and have supplied you with all the information you have requested. We are very concerned about this as you are, and rightly so. The amount is a large amount. As I have stated in the last few e-mails, we are in the process of working with consumer affairs at the USPS to resolve this issue and the claim has been submitted. The Blokart shipment is fully insured and as the shipper of the item, we assume full responsibility on getting this resolved. Unfortunately the post office is very slow in dealing with claims, especially when they are larger in amounts. As you have discovered, they can be very difficult to work with but we will continue to press until it gets resolved. Once we get this resolved with the post office, we will either ship the Blokart frame back out to you again or replace it with another or issue you a refund for the full amount. Unfortunately we can not do anything until it gets resolved by the post office. We do care a lot about your order as well as all of our customers and will do whatever possible to take care of this in the best way we can. I am just sorry that it is taking as long as it has and we have still not received an answer.

You fail to mention that half of the shipment did indeed arrive ok, the sail and the mast. The frame is what is missing and I realize that the sail and mast is not of much value without the rest of the Blokart, but is does show that we did ship in good faith. As we stated in our email regarding the cheapest and slowest method, we shipped to you using the ONLY method available. The frame is too large to ship Priority or Express and first class mail was actually more than the amount you paid - which we absorbed at our own expense. UPS or FedEx do not ship to APO addresses or we would have used one of those instead. You never mentioned any other addresses or shipping options until the shipment had already been sent. We made every effort to get your order to you as quickly and the best way possible. We are very sorry that it all did not arrive ok.

Again I am very sorry for the issues regarding your order and fully understand why you are upset. We pride ourselves in being a respectable and honest business and a sincere supporter of the kiting community. We have in no way "washed our hands of it" and will continue to work on it until it gets resolved. I am sorry that you feel that publicly tarnishing our name and reputation is the best way to fix this issue. Regardless, we will continue to work on getting this resolved with the post office and when we hear something, we will contact you immediately with the options.

Kent Kingston
A Wind Of Change Kites
Owner

Story unfolds as I thought it would... I knew we only got one half of the story, and an inaccurate half at that.

I think an apology is in order, mikeskor... to Kent, at least.

Never, ever, ever, trash someone that's trying to help you....It tends to make you look bad..

Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza

I think an apology is in order, mikeskor... to Kent, at least.

Agreed

I will believe the refund when I see it in my account.If you really wanted to solve this problem, you would make the refund now instead of making me wait longer than the six months you have already made me wait. You can collect from the post office, if they ever pay up. Incidentally, regarding the part shipment that was sent via priority mail, you try blokarting with only a sail. You used the word "smear, " a word I never used. I have gone public as a way to make you realize I am serious about wanting the refund. All these things, you say you are doing on my behalf have come about recently since I said I would go public. I will gladly make an announcement here when I get my refund. Until, I see the funds in my account, what you have written is just words.

I will believe the refund when I see it in my account.If you really wanted to solve this problem, you would make the refund now instead of making me wait longer than the six months you have already made me wait. You can collect from the post office, if they ever pay up. Incidentally, regarding the part shipment that was sent via priority mail, you try blokarting with only a sail. You used the word "smear, " a word I never used. I have gone public as a way to make you realize I am serious about wanting the refund. All these things, you say you are doing on my behalf have come about recently since I said I would go public. I will gladly make an announcement here when I get my refund. Until, I see the funds in my account, what you have written is just words.

the bottom line is you are still entitled to a full and immediate refund as you haven't received what you paid for. the problem is between awoc and the postal carrier. waiting for 6 months is being more then reasonable

Having owned and run my own retail business for a very long time I have encountered many regrettable situations where beyond anyones control or best intentions, issues have arisen that created a very uneasy feeling of concern with the paying consumer. I have found it very intriguing to witness the shipping karma in action on those whom act like asses to very well intended retailers while their merchandise floats around in the whirly vortex. Almost always the ill intentions of the consumers public complaint contain partial truths while they paint out the "horrible" customer service and lack of concern on their behalf by the business they choose to do business with, and it seems so in this case as well. I have found as others will surely agree that Kent is a stand up guy and will do as much as possible to remedy situations that aren't perfect to achieve a reasonable outcome for his customers but I'm sure that "calling him out" on a public forum won't improve his efficiency in any way to make it right by you. mikeskor, you're acting like a child, the phrase "you get more flys with honey" comes to mind, man up, show a little more diplomacy, and you may get help on this forum that you wouldn't have otherwise. This is a pretty tight group that looks out for each other and I've been pleased to see some incredible acts of kindness bestowed on those in need when it's deserved.

I still don't believe that AWOC really wants to make that refund. What Kent has written here is just words for PR purposes. AWOC would have done nothing had I not gone public.

If Kent's attitude to his customers is as negative as yours, there is no wonder that I haven't received a refund. You should give me the name of your business so that I and other customers can avoid you.

mikeskor- what's the name of YOUR business, so we can avoid it?

Kent supplies the PR and you provide the nastiness by proxy. I don't have time to deal with foul comments from a coterie of Kent's friends, aliases and business cronies who are attempting to chase me off this site. I have a legitimate grievance and expect a refund after 6 months of waiting for the Blokart from a Wind of Change.

Wait, you came to pick a fight with the public, and now you only wish to deal with AWOC? Heck man, you could have *only* dealt with AWOC privately.

MikeSkor:

Nobody is trying to chase you off this site. I assure you, Erratic winds (Nick) is not a crony or alias for Wind of Change...geesh. I've land boarded with him and have benefited from his tips and advice on more then one occasion - but that is just a rational response to an irrational accusation.

I think we all get it-you are super frustrated that you paid MONTHS ago for an item of a large order of which a critical piece you still haven't received. I'd be mega torqued and feel completely trapped too...but what you need to keep in mind is that your message is getting lost and you are burning people in the process whom would otherwise go out of their way to help you.

I would have thought after months something could be resolved to get you going and I am surprised a temporary solution couldn't have been ironed out while the claim is in the works. I haven't purchased anything from a Wind of Change but I do know they have an excellent reputation-so for things to boil to this level is in my opinion quite peculiar.

I do hope you get satisfactory resolution-being trapped or feeling like you are getting inadequate service is sometimes combination of both reality and perception.

Jeff

As Caritb has pointed out: "the bottom line is you are still entitled to a full and immediate refund as you haven't received what you paid for. the problem is between awoc and the postal carrier. waiting for 6 months is being more then reasonable"

Quote: Originally posted by mikeskor

As Caritb has pointed out: "the bottom line is you are still entitled to a full and immediate refund as you haven't received what you paid for. the problem is between awoc and the postal carrier. waiting for 6 months is being more then reasonable"

carltb is in the UK and his laws may very well be different than what is applicable here in the USA

not seeing the postal service chime in despite the actual problem it has caused.


if insurance was purchased everyone involved knew there were risks.

sounds like the INSURANCE WAS CRAP. the partial delivery/acceptance i think closes the door on the ins. claim, riffclown alluded to the "not my baby" at the hand off

cc/paypal, far better than any ins....no BS "i did not get it"---->chargeback over in a flash

unfortunate for avocation of fun

Kent is a solid dealer. and you want to turn your $ into fun. both are being stressed by the real culprit...

this is where Hercules SHOULD kill the messenger--->USPS and its underwriter the federal government and the bastard within the system who jacked your fun.

sorry for the troubles

If you have wondered what might make a person go public after waiting for 6 months for either a blokart or refund, perhaps this quote in an email from Daelyn Kingston at AWOC might clarify. When i asked for a refund, she writes:"You are asking us to take a loss for a situation that had nothing to do with us." AWOC doesn't want to take the loss, so who is to take the loss if not the customer? In the light of private emails from AWOC, Kent's response appears false.

worst thread ever...
don’t know u mikeskor but i feel for you...gotta say Kent has been nothing but helpful and professional in my purchases and dealings w/ him…say what you will about me…but thats the truth