Hello everyone!

Been lurking here for a while, but it was time to register and ask for help.

My interest right now is in landboarding, as a way to replace the snowboarding I can't do where I live now. I'd like to get on the water in the future, but I have a large field right next to my house that's just begging for me to ride.

I've been flying a 3m Scout III trainer for a few months now, and am ready to start thinking about what's next. In that time I've also picked up a harness and Comp 90 ATB. I can get it to pull me downwind without much hassle, but upwind hasn't happened at all yet.

I have decent board skills from skateboarding and snowboarding when I was younger, so my question is.. What should I be looking at?

In terms of my current goals, I want to be able to cruise around up and down wind. I also want to do some jumping though I don't think that's as important at the moment as getting some speed and carving in...

I've considered going the LEI route (like an LF Envy), because I can use it directly on the water, but that seems like a hassle for landboarding.. everything from pumping to self launching seems like its unnecessarily more difficult.

I feel like getting a depowerable kite would be more in line with transitioning to the water eventually (though landboarding will most likely be my first love if for no other reason that convenience).

The other thing of note is that the wind can be fairly gusty since its inland..

I guess this is all a little vague, but Im hoping to get a little direction/guidance from everyone here who has a lot of experience.

Thanks!

Welcome!..I hate starting but here goes...imo a 7/9dp or a 5m fb either way is good..i felt more comfy getting movement down w/ fb cause it's what i started with and what i knew..i fly both now w/ the atb both have their place..my first real runs were w/ that same 3m Hornet you have..tell us where u are maybe someone in the area can help..wear a helmet

Thanks abkayak!

I'm in Dallas, TX and I weigh 185..

I know dp is depower, but what is fb foil something?

I picked up a bern helmet before I went out for the first time. I'm old enough that I don't care about "looking cool" by riding without a helmet!

Any opinion about using LEI's for landboarding?

Thanks!

your scout is a fixed bridle kite/foil..as opposed to a depowerable kite like the lei's
bern helmets are super cool...just need some stickers
i dont suggest a lei to get started w/ the atb..but many will cause they work fine..some will say better..you just dont want to crash them

right track to be looking at depower- I am a huge fan of Arcs and all i use for landboarding- great in gusts and super easy in clean winds as well as huge wind range - as long as its not too low if riding on grass. there is a thread currently going on about depower vs fb


http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=28249

welcome!
Scott

Thanks flyguy.. Yeah I feel like depower is the way to go. I'm just having a hard time deciding what way to commit to. I like the LEI idea because I know I want to do water, and it seems like that's the best option there. But realistically I don't think I'll be doing water for at least a year or so which means that something depowerable+open cell like a Montana might be a better choice for budget etc.

I know there's things like the Matrixx which mean you can do it on water, but I'm having a hard time telling if thats more marketing than reality. "Sure you can use it on water... *wink*"

I guess the other question is regarding buying used equipment... Have people generally had success with it? It seems a little risky because you don't know if it's been mistreated in the past, and as a newcomer, its hard to evaluate if it's in good condition.

Thanks again!

Arcs and the matrix and other closed sell foils work well on water but they fly differently then LEIs- I use an LEI on water (the few times i have been-planning on more this summer) but really like my arcs for landboard or snow. the montannas are really nice open foil as is the apex- just make sure on those that they are the newer ones - in montannas 5+ apex the 2 is my favorite but all good after 2.
as for online buying on this forum never had any issues and mostily good guys
Scott

Welcome,

+1 for going depower.

You are going to be hard on your 1st depower so buy used but not Pre 2006. Particularly if you go LEI. For gusty wind Arcs and LEI are your best choice In my opinion. Best Arc deals on are likely found on this site. Best deals on LEI from reputable kitesurf forums. Most folks on reputable forums are good to go with. Ebay and such, not so much.

Closed cell kites like Flysurfer, HQ, SkyCountry and Elf make do relaunch from water but they are not as easy to deal with while learning ( crashing a lot ) as newer LEI. Arcs do as well but again relaunch can be tricky.

Whatever you do , plan on needing 2 or 3 kites going in. Try and build a quiver. Start with something a bit small like 7 or 8 m ( 10 or 12 in arcs ) . It will end up your high wind kite once you are master of it. Once you have flown the 7 - 8 for a while you will have a better idea of what larger size will work for you. 10 - 12m ( 13 - 16 arcs ) are a nice middle ground.

Very low winds can be handled well with FB kites at a reasonable cost. Getting very low wind performance from depower can be spendy.

I suggest you get the 1st ( small ) kite in a closed cell foil or arc design. Once you are not crashing then go LEI in the mid range. When you go to water you will have a high wind kite to go to if the winds are too much for your mid range LEI. Far better to have a high wind kite than low wind kite on water . Low wind riding isn't too exciting.

Thanks for the replies, flyguy/bladerunner.

The more I read your suggestions/the forums the more I think an arc might just be the ticket for me at the moment.

> I suggest you get the 1st ( small ) kite in a closed cell foil or arc design. Once you are not crashing then go LEI in the mid range. When you go to water you will have a high wind kite to go to if the winds are too much for your mid range LEI. Far better to have a high wind kite than low wind kite on water . Low wind riding isn't too exciting.

This makes a lot of sense to me! I think I'll try to buy along this exact path.

There's a sweet Phantom 2 for sale in the forums but its a 9 (missed the boat on the 12 ) I really want to pull the trigger but I'm concerned that might be too small. For my winds a 12m arc would probably be a better choice.

What are your typical wind speed? I think you may or may not be right about the 9m ?

While it may be a bit small on land for sub 12mph winds it is a good size for a high wind kite and on water. I don't have hands on experience with the new Phantoms but would guess you can pull off a ride on grass with about 10mph winds since it is fast turning. It will serve well as your high wind kite down the rode? The trick with a 12 or 13 is you are sort of on the small side of mid range. Not exactly going to serve as your high wind kite down the rode? It is the perfect size for many but they typically have high teen winds. Building a small quiver around that will be a tough call.

Far better to have too small a kite and be safe in even the strongest winds than have the temptation to take out the only kite you have even though the wind is too strong and you can get hurt !

Bladerunner,

Seems the wind isn't terrible here..
http://cl.ly/image/2h1k1g0J2W1c
(scale is 15 dark to 25+ light)

looks like at a minimum 10 days a month with > 15 mph winds..

I'm also considering a 13m venom 1 thats for sale.. that might be better suited? Cheaper and less of a big deal to learn on / crash.. Then eventually maybe upgrade that or go with a bigger LEI like you suggested.. I can tell this sport is addictive and can be rough on the wallet!

Im 180's ish and my local spot is pretty rough compared to a nice flat beach!

Venom 1 is a good kite to go to. Not too expensive and they have a real following so selling it should be no problem.

13 won't exactly end up your small kite but it is a nice small medium. Your trainer will work as a higher wind kite on land. So the 2 will compliment each other for now. Many people say it is their go to size. Judging by how your winds drop in the summer it may be just beg enough. Arcs are scary looking when sitting on the ground. They are so much larger than the other kites but not when you measure their "projected area " . I still have issues with thinking I have too much kite and then once it is up I wonder why I was worried.

I don't use a fan but arcs launch a whole lot better when properly filled . If you have a leaf blower or a dust vac with blower end or something to fill it , that is a big advantage at 1st.

If I am correct the VI only has a center fill zipper. What I do with my Phantom and no fan is fill it , push the air up by rolling the kite toward the top end and the refill the bottom.

Just curious how much the VI is going for. Around $350 complete with 04 bar and leash ( ask for the leash! ) or functional bar seems about right ? They can be found cheaper but ...

If you find you like arcs be sure that they got better once they added a bridle. You can stick with arc and still up your performance dramatically . The only drawback in the future is relaunch on water while learning. Arcs have auto zenith so actually crashing them is less common .

I am local to you. Get with me, I have a couple kites you can try. Also the local club DAKO (Dallas Area Kitefliers Organization) has a large contention of guys doing what you are doing. and we are pretty active in the area.

Sweeet.. It's all taken care of. I have the large TS bar from Beamer bob and the 13m venom 1 from AD72 on the way. Very excited!

Quote:

Arcs are scary looking when sitting on the ground. They are so much larger than the other kites but not when you measure their "projected area "

I'm pretty sure anyone seeing me fly this thing around here is gonna think I'm insane. I already get a bunch of weird looks with my little 3M scout.. imagine when i bring out this monster and start jumping around!

Quote:

If I am correct the VI only has a center fill zipper. What I do with my Phantom and no fan is fill it , push the air up by rolling the kite toward the top end and the refill the bottom.

I'm sure that will make more sense to me once i get the kite (the rolling the kite parts).. I'll keep it in mind

Quote:

Just curious how much the VI is going for. Around $350 complete with 04 bar and leash ( ask for the leash! ) or functional bar seems about right ? They can be found cheaper but ...

Quote:

Just curious how much the VI is going for. Around $350 complete with 04 bar and leash ( ask for the leash! ) or functional bar seems about right ? They can be found cheaper but ...

I got the new large TS navbar from beamerbob for $150 and the kite for $250. So $400 for a setup with a new model bar seems like a pretty great deal!

The only part in question is the leash. I hope it comes with the leash but I didn't know to ask beamerbob.. (that being said, I would have bought it anyway )

Quote:

If you find you like arcs be sure that they got better once they added a bridle. You can stick with arc and still up your performance dramatically

Do you mean the newer ones like the charger 2 have a bridle as opposed to just the side connections? My plan is to rock this v1 for a while to learn and then take a look at getting something like a charger 2 once I can handle it properly and not worry about screwing up a new kite. Better to learn on used stuff than make mistakes on new stuff!

Quote:

Also the local club DAKO (Dallas Area Kitefliers Organization) has a large contention of guys doing what you are doing. and we are pretty active in the area.

Sounds good! Looking forward to meeting you!

Starting with the Scorpion PL installed a small bridle at the wing tips to speed up turning. The faster turning and possibly better low end is what you would probably most notice if you move up.

Try and get together with the locals!

Don't rush into jumping. As a general rule you shouldn't jump until you can fly the kite without looking at it . You have to be able to be redirecting the kite while spotting your landing so ...

At only $150 you may want to ask Bob if the leash is included with the bar. I learned the hard way that they are not considered a package. That was a good deal with or without.

Woohoo.. just confirmed with BeamerBob... the leash is included, so I'm ready to fly as soon as all the gear gets in! Very excited!

>Don't rush into jumping. As a general rule you shouldn't jump until you can fly the kite without looking at it .

Yeah, I'm not too interested in breaking limbs, but I am excited to get into jumping eventually. The initial big goal for me will be to learn to go upwind on my board. With my scout I haven't been able to do that at all yet and walking the field is a real bummer. That being said, if the autozenith is as good as they say on these kites, even walking the field would be a lot less annoying compared to packing up, walking, and relaunching!

You should be able to walk upwind with your Scout in the air as long as there is enough wind for it to sit at the edge ? Just set it at 2 or 10 and walk upwind? If the kite won't hang on the edge of the window from above your head down to the ground on each side then the wind is likely not strong enough ? ( or your kite isn't tuned right) This would explain why you can't get upwind ?

If your winds are too light for your scout to sit at the edge chances are you won't get auto zenith or upwind from your arc either ?

I knew if Bob hadn't planned on including a leash He would get you one knowing you will need it. He is one great guy to deal with !

>Just set it at 2 or 10 and walk upwind? If the kite won't hang on the edge of the window from above your head down to the ground on each side then the wind is likely not strong enough ? ( or your kite isn't tuned right) This would explain why you can't get upwind ?
I think the winds weren't strong enough or were too variable.. I lack the experience to know for sure. What I do know is if I can't do it with the 13, its definitely a skill issue!

>If your winds are too light for your scout to sit at the edge chances are you won't get auto zenith or upwind from your arc either ?
Here's to hoping that's not the problem then!

> I knew if Bob hadn't planned on including a leash He would get you one knowing you will need it. He is one great guy to deal with !
Yeah I kinda screwed up and sent payment as goods, not knowing that I should have done it as friends to save fees (I haven't purchased things via a board much in the past). Whoops. Sent a few extra bucks to help cover my stupidity. He seems like a really cool guy so I didn't want to screw him over!

At $150 + a few bucks for the leash you still got a great deal. I think those bars go for around $400 new.

He included a leash, so it's an even better deal! Though he did say the lines were a bit dirty, so i guess the drawback is i have to get out some soapy water!

Took the Venom 13 out 2x now, but sadly it's not been that much fun. Took me at least 30-45 minutes to get it up in the air (though I think I have a better understanding of what I need to do now.. In particular get the thing really pumped full of air, and make sure the trim is fully pulled in).

I didn't really get to ride teh board either time, though I was more focused on getting used to flying it than riding the board. One thing I know for sure is that I need to find a better way to pack the thing up. After getting worn out flying, it took me forever to roll the damn thing up. I'm a little discouraged right now, but at the same time, its a new hobby, it takes time to learn how to do it right!

Nothing worth while comes easy.

Maybe my advice to roll the kite up from the bottom pushing the air to the top and then refilling the bottom makes more sense now ? Taking the time to get the kite well filled is a huge advantage.

Line management is also important. If your lines aren't clear and the downwind lines running over top of the kite getting the down wind tip to lift and catch wind isn't likely.

Fold the upwind tip over and put your weight at the very edge so it holds but pops out with ease + stays away from your lines.

A good launch is a series of little things set right 1st , then toss in a bit of good luck and gently pull the front lines. Look at as many videos on arc launching as you can. Having an assistant is always best.

Pack up depends on if I am using it again soon. Park it, clam it,( Bring the downwind wingtip up with the top ) (( keep the baton pointed low as you bring it forward to avoid catching wind )), weight it, open the deflate zipper. Roll up your lines while it starts to deflate. If you are keeping it all together put the bar on the kite and roll the air out. Strap and pack. If you need to pack small. Remove the bar. Still roll the air out but then unroll it and remove your spars. The fold it stomping the air out as you go. Strap and pack.

Learning the trick to arc handling on the ground is something that happens fast if being taught by somebody. Slow when you are working it out alone. Try and get moving. That is when the magic of the arcs comes alive !

^^what he said

If the wind is light or you have a ground wind shadow I will often use a leaf blower or raft inflator to get it full. Makes initial launch much easier. And watch some more of the launch and land videos. When it clicks you will be in heaven

Thanks for the advice guys!

> Maybe my advice to roll the kite up from the bottom pushing the air to the top and then refilling the bottom makes more sense now ?
Yeah it deff does make more sense. There's a few more good wind days coming so I'll be back out there quickly!


>Line management is also important. If your lines aren't clear and the downwind lines running over top of the kite getting the down wind tip to lift and catch wind isn't likely.
This is really been the thing that kills me. If I don't get it launched right and it flips or twists, the line s are all messed up. I think both times I flew the wind was a bit shifty so thats at elast part to blame, but its still pretty frustrating!


> Pack up depends on if I am using it again soon. Park it, clam it,( Bring the downwind wingtip up with the top ) (( keep the baton pointed low as you bring it forward to avoid catching wind )), weight it, open the deflate zipper. Roll up your lines while it starts to deflate. If you are keeping it all together put the bar on the kite and roll the air out. Strap and pack. If you need to pack small. Remove the bar. Still roll the air out but then unroll it and remove your spars. The fold it stomping the air out as you go. Strap and pack.

SUPER helpful description. So for some dumb reason I actually rolled the whole thing up from flat instead of claming it and then rolling it. I have no idea what I was thinking (In my defense, I was pretty exhausted at this point.. and certainly not thinking straight.)

I will deff be out again soon with it. I'm really hoping to get some actual board time in too next time. Between the descriptions above and the realization that i really need to fully fill the kite to make it work, I think things will be much easier next time

I've not been thorough on PKF lately and missed this thread. You've gotten some masterful advice so far. Have you washed up the bar and lines yet? Keep us posted on the good and the bad experiences.

good read, SpecialK,

don't get hung up on getting on the board IMMediately , choose smaller elements to master at a time.

like just the setup 30-40min at first is normal. fly a bit --->LAND IT practice safety discharge, repeat til your sick of it. 10-20-hours flying the kite forget the board work on kite control, as soon as you step on the board the last u want to have to worry about learning basic kite handling.
be patient , think about points of sail , walk thru a series of short tacks to get a sailing frame of mind.
when good winds come your practice will have prepared u. you got a helmet first! you know whats coming ! keep us posted

Probably the most common thing to go wrong setting up in shifty winds is getting the lines on the down wind wing from flapping back . Newer arcs have a little Velcro spot to hold the lines.

I try and fold the downwind tip over to aid in it catching the wind when I tug. It doesn't stay that way if the wind shifts but often helps. ( on the beach I add a tiny sprinkle of sand to help prevent it from blowing back ) As you start pulling the front lines from about 45' if the down wind tip is not going to slide over the top and catch wind after a tiny tug or 2 it may be best to reset the lines before it gets worse.

In time you will get that 35 minutes down to 5 minutes . On a good day !

Feeling MUCH better today. Went to the bigger field I was talking about over lunch. The goal wasn't to have a long session, but to practice setup and teardown. Total round trip time: 1:10.. 20 to get there and unpack, 20 to fly, 20 to pack and get back, 10 to shower.. I am pleased as I'm sure a few more trips and I'll shave a good bit of time off of that.

As for flying, I think the wind was a little too powerful for my current skill level. I flew it for about half the time, mostly with the bar out (a bit too scared to pull it in.. not really ready to jump yet.. at least not in that wind..) and the rest was on the board. I got a few good runs, but no upwind at all... I wasn't in enough control for that. One time I did get going a bit too fast for my comfort, but managed to keep it together. Only once did i get dragged across the field on my back! Heh.

Now I'm really excited about progressing to the cruising stage. It does feel a little bit like snowboarding, which is the real reason I took an interest in the sport, but also totally different because you don't just randomly accelerate on a snowboard!


BeamerBob:
Yeah the lines cleaned up very nicely! You can tell that they’re used, but that doesn’t bother me at all! Thank’s for the help!

PhreeRider:
Yeah I agree.. I’m going to do short trips like this I think to get a lot of setup and pack down practice. I do wish there was a better way to land thing thing than to bring it down and pop the bar. It kind of makes a mess of the lines.. Is there a better way to do it than that, or a way to do it without making a mess of the lines?

Bladerunner:
5 minutes is deff the target! Thanks again for that description, it really helped today make it much more tolerable. I think the other day I was pretty delirious from exertion when packing down so I wasn’t thinking straight. Claming it and then rolling the bar in seems to be the way to go!

Special- Sounds like a few things clicked today. As far as the downwind vs upwind make sure that you are going cross wind staarting out downwind so you dont faceplant but promptly edging a little so that you are keeping the lines tight if you find the lines going slack you might be heading to far downwind. Now after saying all that... dont rush it you need to be able to fly the kite without looking at it and if the wind is too strong then pull the trim strap in (clam cleat on that bar) and it will take some of the power out of the kite- downside is that it will also make the steering a little "softer" you want to use the bar to regulate the kite so you should have it pulled in a little less then 1/2 then when a gust comes you push it away and want a little more juice pull it in (pulling in to gain power will only work when moving-static it just chokes the kite)

Special- Sounds like a few things clicked today. As far as the downwind vs upwind make sure that you are going cross wind staarting out downwind so you dont faceplant but promptly edging a little so that you are keeping the lines tight if you find the lines going slack you might be heading to far downwind. Now after saying all that... dont rush it you need to be able to fly the kite without looking at it and if the wind is too strong then pull the trim strap in (clam cleat on that bar) and it will take some of the power out of the kite- downside is that it will also make the steering a little "softer" you want to use the bar to regulate the kite so you should have it pulled in a little less then 1/2 then when a gust comes you push it away and want a little more juice pull it in (pulling in to gain power will only work when moving-static it just chokes the kite)