Up until Saturday, I was convinced that Foil was the way to go for me.

I was having fun on my Montana, and all was good. This Saturday I was able to make it to a local park about 30 minutes away that sits on a lake. The winds are very constant and they were blowing at 15 mph. I decided to put up the Venom first because I hadn't flown it in a while, and never in such good winds. It was like a dream. Jumping 10+ft, hitting 10-15 mph at least even though the grass wasn't that smooth. I finally experienced first hand the attributes that make so many of you guys love arcs. I felt the gusts, but they didn't yank me like crazy.. I saw how awesome the auto-zenith can be.. Long story short, I rode for nearly 3 hours but didn't even fly the Montana because I was having so much fun with the Venom.

And that leaves me where I'm at now. I know I want to get at least one more big kite. While I was sure it was either going to be a 14m Montana or a 15m Matrixx, now I'm totally unsure. I know I can't always bank on winds like that, but maybe a 19m arc would feel like that in lower winds... I wish I could try one of these big arcs in my winds to find out. Until then I guess I'll just keep dreaming..

I've always had both. You don't owe the kites or anyone any allegiance. Remember, an arc isn't going to perform in winds you would need a 14/15m Montana/Matrix for. If you had a 19m Charger II and a 14m Montana, and you go to fly and the winds are 5-9 mph, I assure you the large foil is the one you will want to fly. But 10-13 and you would have a blast on the big arc. Arcs aren't my go to kite right now but I still have 3 of them and 2 new NAV bars to go with them.

I think the biggest weak spot in your quiver right now is a kite for true light winds. There is a reason your Venom is one of the most popular arcs ever made, but it isn't due to light wind performance. I'd get the large Montana or Matrix and then watch for a deal on a used large Synergy, Phantom II, or Charger II to try it out for the next purchase. Then you would have to decide if you were going to prepare for high wind days more than the Venom can handle.

Get used to this, I've acquired 3 different quivers so far due to moving to new flying locations and have started a new era for me including more small fixed bridle kites and LEIs. But my 8m Montana VIII holds a top spot in the quiver for winds 15-25 mph. As your tastes and skill level change, so will your kite needs.

Damn it, why is this sport/hobby so expensive!

Seriously though, thanks for the advice. That really helps!

If you like the Venom my recommendation would be to sell the Montana (there has to be a lot of overlap between the two) and use the funds to buy a 14-15m open cell foil for light winds.

The time to set up and pack up arcs drove me to purchase a 14m Eskimo. It is an older model and I don't think I was getting the same bottom end that the newer Montana or Matrix might offer ? Wind wise it was pretty much over lapping my 18m Phantom. With the Phantom having a bit better or at least safer feeling top end. We typically have very light winds and I needed a " day saver " . I sold it to fund my 19m SA2 and so far am glad I did. I think I need more time flying it to get the most out of the bottom end though. Being small I am not getting the greatest range from the SA but it fits directly under my phantom. Once it is inflated I was pretty amazed at the low end I do get from the phantom.

When it is in the sky and the wind is right arcs seem to suit my personal style more. It's tough to say what will suit yours ? Maybe what you want to do is shop for extremely good deals and then resell if you aren't in a situation that you can " try before you buy " ?

If you want extreme low end from an arc, I'd suggest an f-arc 1600. I have jumped 10+ feet with mine is sub 10mph winds(I only weigh about 130 lbs). My guerilla 18m never makes it out of the bag since I got mine. Mind you this kite is old so it turns slow, has half the depower of modern kites, and harder to launch and relaunch. It is fast, lifty, rivals a speed3 at upwind performance, and does all the other arc stuff. They are fairly cheap too, only around $200 for a new one.

you cant do this with foils!!............https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10203827462224332&set=vb.1153269341&type=2&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203826756926700&am...

I can't do that with my bank account either!

Yeah that is like double Flysurfer money in the air there... Awesome to look at, but I surely couldn't afford it either.

With all the talk there's been on depow. lately, let's talk stability. Of the 2, which will be MORE stable in less than stable wind? A kite like the Montana, Guru, Frenzy (dp foil), or your standard arc?... Stability in my wind conditions are a BIG factor.

I've heard how good the arcs do with absorbing gusts, but my less-than-favorable style of wind is more frequently "directionally challenged" and lull-ish than gusty. If I were to get into depow. (Which I'm seriously considering) what would suite my wind conditions better... Arc or Foil? I've already got one foot in the foil camp due to saving time from not having to inflate,... Plus I just keep dreaming of Montana's ever since BeamerBob posted his review of the M8.

Keeping in mind I more frequently use my 8.6m and 5.5m RII, I'm thinking a Montana 5 or 6 in he 12ish meter size would probably suit me best... Am I wrong? What's the going price on the M5 or 6 in that size?... Or what else would be a good fit, and how much would it go for?... If I'm going to go DP, I have to sell some stuff and raise the $$. I saw Smeagol's 8m Guru for sale at $550... What about the bigger sizes? 10-12m?... Help a brother out.

BTW... PLEASE DONT U2U OR EMAIL ME ABOUT HAVING A KITE FOR SALE... I HAVE NO MONEY SAVED, I'M ONLY CURIOUS.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

With all the talk there's been on depow. lately, let's talk stability. Of the 2, which will be MORE stable in less than stable wind? A kite like the Montana, Guru, Frenzy (dp foil), or your standard arc?... Stability in my wind conditions are a BIG factor. I've heard how good the arcs do with absorbing gusts, but my less-than-favorable style of wind is more frequently "directionally challenged" and lull-ish than gusty. If I were to get into depow. (Which I'm seriously considering) what would suite my wind conditions better... Arc or Foil? I've already got one foot in the foil camp due to saving time from not having to inflate,... Plus I just keep dreaming of Montana's ever since BeamerBob posted his review of the M8. Keeping in mind I more frequently use my 8.6m and 5.5m RII, I'm thinking a Montana 5 or 6 in he 12ish meter size would probably suit me best... Am I wrong? What's the going price on the M5 or 6 in that size?... Or what else would be a good fit, and how much would it go for?... If I'm going to go DP, I have to sell some stuff and raise the $$. I saw Smeagol's 8m Guru for sale at $550... What about the bigger sizes? 10-12m?... Help a brother out. BTW... PLEASE DONT U2U OR EMAIL ME ABOUT HAVING A KITE FOR SALE... I HAVE NO MONEY SAVED, I'M ONLY CURIOUS.

directionally challenged and lull-ish describe my grass site perfectly. Foils are prone to sudden collapse. Arcs fair much better if you are good with 'em. Would you consider an LEI? I find they cope the best due to their rigid shape. Not any LEI though. Needs to be light wind capable.

I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown.

I recently went through a dust devil I couldn't see and the lei went 180 degrees around behind me and sat down on the ground. I must say no kite could've stayed flying in those conditions but the lei was earily retaining it's shape if the wind ever stabilized. No luffs and no nose foldovers. Much like the new Montana lol.

Quote:

I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown.

I would like to try an lei, but solo launching and landing seems like a lot can go wrong. Do you guys launch and land solo? There was a local selling a 2008 10 meter best waroo for $200 rtf. I think it's gone now but it was tempting

Here's my concern with things like LEI and Arcs... It's the inflation time... My kiting time is regularly limited to 3-5 hours a month... Yes that 1x at 3-5 hours PER MONTH... So whatever can be done to minimize set up and break down will maximize fun tine... "Directionally-challenged" is typically no more than a 90 deg shift... say the forecast is from due south, that typically means it will shift any where from due SE to due SW... It's worse from time to time but wind direction does present that challenge.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Quote: I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown. I would like to try an lei, but solo launching and landing seems like a lot can go wrong. Do you guys launch and land solo? There was a local selling a 2008 10 meter best waroo for $200 rtf. I think it's gone now but it was tempting

We buggy people are self reliant. Only in the lightest winds would you need help launching. The waroo is an excellent buggy engine btw.
Solo landing an LEI is the easiest thing in the world to do. It's a failed deadmans turn.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

Here's my concern with things like LEI and Arcs... It's the inflation time... My kiting time is regularly limited to 3-5 hours a month... Yes that 1x at 3-5 hours PER MONTH... So whatever can be done to minimize set up and break down will maximize fun tine... "Directionally-challenged" is typically no more than a 90 deg shift... say the forecast is from due south, that typically means it will shift any where from due SE to due SW... It's worse from time to time but wind direction does present that challenge.

Pumping is quick and easy. Just connect one end of a hose to a twinskin kite and the other to your LEI. Then just squeeze the all the air out of the twinskin.

What about a twin skin foil? Maybe they would be less prone to collapse in shifty wind but be easier to set up and tear down? Don't know, just guessing.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

What about a twin skin foil? Maybe they would be less prone to collapse in shifty wind but be easier to set up and tear down? Don't know, just guessing.

What do you mean? Virtually every foil kite ever made has a front and back skin

I mean closed cell. Like a neo or similar kite.

Sorry, wrong terminology on the last post.

What about a Peak? Canopy stiffeners, super light and designed to be stable. Might be worth considering.

Quote:

I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown.

Like this?

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/spo/4510833985.html

I can't believe I looked at our local craigslist which has on average maybe 2 kites per year listed and this one happened to be there. Will this swiftly punish an LEI newbie?

I'm really hesitant about an LEI... Mostly due to lack of DP experience... I'm more open to an Arc, but still am liking the idea of a DP foil most because of the set up and breakdown time concerns... I'm liking the price on the used LEI's but I'm thinking they require much more wind than is average around here, plus I'm not sure about the self launch and burst bladders etc etc.

Maybe I just have my heart set on something and I'm not hearing the overall verdict.

Here's what I'm seeing so tell me if I'm wrong:

Arc: best starter Arc appears to be the venom I or II which I've seen in the neighborhood of $300-$500 for the 13m size... Given my wind conditions, would something bigger suit like a 15m?
Pros- gust eater and good and stable (maybe or am I wrong?)
Cons- longer set up time due to inflation, more difficult to recover after deploying the safety.

Foil: I'd love a Montana 5 or 6... I assume these models are more affordable than the 7 & 8, but have no idea what they typically go for $$$ wise. I've looked at the charts and it appears that the 12.5m would suit my most frequent conditions best.
Pros: much easier set up and breakdown but I'm unsure about stability
Cons: no inflation typically means a little loss of stability.
Additional note... I'm not opposed to a different make or model of DP foil, aka Gin Zulu or Guru or whatever, OZ Frenzy or Access, PL Lynx even, ... My main concern is stability in somewhat shifty winds.

LEI: the. Price is great for used inflatos but other than that, I really don't know much about them
Pros: stability sounds great
Cons: inflation set up time. I hear they're difficult for a newb to self launch. Concern over a blown bladder for crashing the thing
You LEI guys tell me more... For right now, the 2 biggest pros for me are the price and the stability,... Otherwise, I'm really turned off.

I would really appreciate some sound advice here... I'm interested in starting to sell some old tools and whatnot that I really don't use and maybe a redundant FB to fund this, but I need to know A. What would be he best purchase to suite my needs and B. HOW MUCH IT WILL COST.

Sorry if I'm hijacking your post here SpecialK, but I think this info might benefit your quandary as well.

And also as I stated above: PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL OR U2U ME ABOUT A KITE YOU HAVE FOR SALE, I DON'T YET HAVE THE MONEY TO SPARE.

If your main concern is stability in shifty winds, you may want to consider a Nasa Star 2. I've found them great for inland winds. You can fly them on handles or bar. They are my "session savers" when the conditions are too crap for my FBs. Mind you I've no experience with Arcs or LEIs so I can't provide a comparison. I've only been bugging for just over a year so please take my experience for what it is (not much).

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Quote: I'd prescribe a 13m xbow 2009>. I'm having mine repaired. Simply the best inland kite I've ever flown. Like this? http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/spo/4510833985.html I can't believe I looked at our local craigslist which has on average maybe 2 kites per year listed and this one happened to be there. Will this swiftly punish an LEI newbie?

Nice find! Buy it. :D
The Crossbow won't punish you if you have experience with a bar. I've owned all sorts of LEI's North Vegas, Flexi ION, Hadlow Pro, Waroo, Rhino, Bandit and fuels and many many more and I can honestly say that the 13m Crossbow is the most friendly and safest kite to fly and powerfully fast in a buggy if you decide to open up the throttle and equally docile with 100% depower.

The more wind you have the better the experience. It makes launching much easier too. You'll want 10-23mph wind for the 13m. There's more than one way to solo launch and the IDS will land the kite for you!

Watch the official Cabrinha Crossbow 2009 video for a demo on how to launch and land. If you decide to buy it then I can offer further support via U2U.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

I'm really hesitant about an LEI... Mostly due to lack of DP experience... I'm more open to an Arc, but still am liking the idea of a DP foil most because of the set up and breakdown time concerns... I'm liking the price on the used LEI's but I'm thinking they require much more wind than is average around here, plus I'm not sure about the self launch and burst bladders etc etc. Here's what I'm seeing so tell me if I'm wrong: Arc: best starter Arc appears to be the venom I or II which I've seen in the neighborhood of $300-$500 for the 13m size... Given my wind conditions, would something bigger suit like a 15m? Pros- gust eater and good and stable (maybe or am I wrong?) Cons- longer set up time due to inflation, more difficult to recover after deploying the safety. Foil: I'd love a Montana 5 or 6... I assume these models are more affordable than the 7 & 8, but have no idea what they typically go for $$$ wise. I've looked at the charts and it appears that the 12.5m would suit my most frequent conditions best. Pros: much easier set up and breakdown but I'm unsure about stability Cons: no inflation typically means a little loss of stability. Additional note... I'm not opposed to a different make or model of DP foil, aka Gin Zulu or Guru or whatever, OZ Frenzy or Access, PL Lynx even, ... My main concern is stability in somewhat shifty winds. LEI: the. Price is great for used inflatos but other than that, I really don't know much about them Pros: stability sounds great Cons: inflation set up time. I hear they're difficult for a newb to self launch. Concern over a blown bladder for crashing the thing You LEI guys tell me more... For right now, the 2 biggest pros for me are the price and the stability,... Otherwise, I'm really turned off. I would really appreciate some sound advice here... I'm interested in starting to sell some old tools and whatnot that I really don't use and maybe a redundant FB to fund this, but I need to know A. What would be he best purchase to suite my needs and B. HOW MUCH IT WILL COST. Sorry if I'm hijacking your post here SpecialK, but I think this info might benefit your quandary as well. And also as I stated above: PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL OR U2U ME ABOUT A KITE YOU HAVE FOR SALE, I DON'T YET HAVE THE MONEY TO SPARE.

If I were in your position I'd go for a depower foil. It will be an easy transition for you coming from FB. Later on you might want to try something else. My first depower try-out was with an Ozone Access 6m. DP is not for everyone but for me it was a revelation and the FB kites were sold.

I tend to bounce back and forth between depower and fixed bridle. I do not like depower foils as much as arcs, but I think I like my arc about the same as my fixed bridle foils. Each has a time and a place. To me, it is just like having several kites for wind speeds. When I want something deliberate and grunty and I am not sure what the wind will be doing, I will always go for my arc, but when I know I have this perfect smooth 10mph wind, I will ALWAYS reach for an 8m+ fixed bridle foil. I only say that because I do not have a 15m+ Speed...

Thanks IMK, I've often been interested in trying NPWs but we're talking depower.

Thanks RedSky, that's been my thinking.... I'd love to hear someone's take on the stability and prices of the used DP foils.

SpecialK, how do you feel your Montana handles stability wise? BB, I know you've tried every iteration of the Montana, I'd love your take on their stability and their price... Do you feel a 12.5m would be best suited for the wind I described?

Something to note about arcs from my experience. They handle gusty + shifty winds well when in motion but static, not so much.

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

BB, I know you've tried every iteration of the Montana, I'd love your take on their stability and their price... Do you feel a 12.5m would be best suited for the wind I described?

I started in with the M III. It seemed like a great kite with my lack of experience. We barely had it and then upgraded to a IV. This model had major changes in the design and still a great kite IIRC. I had issues with my V with the tips wanting to tuck if the winds were lighter, but that went away when you got moving and the kite had good pressure on it. From then on, each one seemed perfect, but the next model found ways to improve. I learned for the most part to anticipate a forward tuck and could prevent most foldovers by pulling in the bar quickly. I always considered this an attribute of flying a high performance kite. Now with the VIII, I haven't had it do it even once. I love this new model for sure. I imagine you don't save much money going older than a V. I'd just watch for used ones and don't be too particular about which version you get. Get the newest one you can afford of course.

I'm happy to hear others enjoying and desiring the Montana as much as I have for years. Conventional wisdom seems to finally be catching up with the Montana being recognized as the top shelf kite it has been for years now.