I'm trying to determine if I should buy the quiver of Phantom 1's from G00fba11 or the single Phantom II (15M) from pbc. Can anybody tell me which would be the better choice as a transition to the ARC's?

Note: The quiver of Phantom 1's only has a small bar to share for the 9 and 12 meter kites. So that will require I purchase a larger bar and line set for the bigger kites.

First gen quiver! That deals "wind range-per-dollar" is off the charts. The coolest kite graphic ever is just a bonus.

Never flown the second gen, but at the asking price for the quiver it's almost like getting a kite and the bar free. That 9m is practically new as is the 18m. The orange 15m is pretty rare. Small investment to add a larger bar. You are covered for almost everything after that.

wait....more kites or less kites... this is a test right???

for the $ , more power/meter in the old units (yet far slower turning with much more bar pressure). the PII much quicker for sure . this is 15m PI v. 15m PII.

never used a small bar on any PL , one 55cm-65cm is all u need

plus the older bigger units have ton o bar pressure esp. in 15knts + and acts as solid balance grab. as i think back, stuff with light bar pressure i did not like as i started out . the powerful bar feedback really gives a "no doubt " feel as to whats going on with the kite. the newer units are quick and need more fly skill to make fire ...the old phantoms do not have much depower and kinda have "c-kite like" behavior when fully firing and loaded.

and as much range as you stomach!

No doubt, for kites that have you covered for pretty much anything. You could even stack them.:evil:

For double the money you will always have the right kite size. The 15 PII I'm sure is a great kite, but you won't be able to get all your money back after flying it for 2 years. Not a problem with the Phantom quiver.

Get the pile of kites. Much more fun

As a new user of arcs I would push you towards a newer arc. The newer arcs are really much more suited for beginners to fly. They behave really well, are friendly to fly and launch, and show off all the nice things arcs possess without the learning curve. I can offer but one story of pbc and I teaching beginner just a few weeks ago. He was flying a scorpion and having trouble launching it (it was also lower wind, and we dropped him down a kite size as he was a newbie), and once in the air, keeping it in the air. pbc and I could launch and fly, and granted the conditions were not easy to fly in, but totally doable. Putting down my kite to fly the scorpion we were asking him to fly showed me a big difference. It was much more demanding and not forgiving. After much coaching we decided to give him a newer arc and it was much easier. He was able to recover from crashes, launch and fly the kite so much better. He learned quicker because he wasn't punished so severly. Heck, after flying the older arc in the same conditions I was happy I didn't have to do so. The difference really cannot be overstated.

All that said, if you know what you are getting with a set of phantom I's go for it. I personally would not want to fly the larger p1's as they are boats in the sky in comparison to today's kites. However, the phantom I 12m kite is dreamy to fly. Surreal. Beautiful and wonderful. Everyone should fly it once. The 6-12m phantoms I would be happy to have, but they are not newbie friendly. They are wonderful buggy kites and in the right conditions will deliver very happy sessions. You do need to know how to launch them and give them a little love, but they are unique kites that are worthy of flying.

So no matter how you obtain it, I'd encourage you to seek out a newer arc. A phantom2 has an stupidly incredible wind range, and a 12m/15m (depending on activity) new arc kite could probably cover most of your flying conditions. The phantom2's are truly 1 kite quivers for arcs. I have charger2's and would recommend those heartily as well.

Disclaimer, I know pbc and the kite in question and have flown it. It's a nice kite and his bars are amazing :-) The advice given above however is because I love arcs, and newer arcs are simply amazing kites worthy of your flying attention. If you want to fly an arc, get something newer if you can, when you can.

Hmm, so much information. So many choices! What to do...what to do...

Scorpions are the hardest arc to fly if you don't know the tricks. Max fill, a leaf blower is almost a must. You need wind and these babies need to move. They are known to be a bit leaky. You need to keep them moving and full and then they are an outstanding boost engine. Just look up some of fly jumps videos.

I would dare to say Phree prolly has a couple of lifetimes underneath an arc compared to most as does Feyd. PM these guys for some good info. Angus at Coastal is also brilliant. Until I met him I was a mutt.

Although the 15m PII is a great kite it will not cover all your wind ranges.

Any doubts on the capability of the 15m PI just go over and watch Carltb's video and watch him go.

In the end you need to choose what fits your objectives.

I don't need to sell my quiver of PI's. I just don't use these beauties anymore.

Whichever way you go you are going to be happy. So PII or PI you will be stoked.

Check this arc link. Everything you need to know on arc setup. Applies in general even to the new ones. It will help you greatly with setup and launch.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/ARCsetup_FAQ.htm

I would give anything to have a 12 or 15 phantom I kites back again. So stable and fun. Not to mention awesome graphics. They are so exciting to fly. You can get strait out speed or huuuuuiuuge jumps. Selling my 12 was one of the biggest mistakes. They are so simple to use. Well once you learn to launch them.

I learned (am still learning) with my Phantom quiver and I have to say I have not experienced any difficulty launching flying or otherwise. As a matter of fact the 18m was the first and most often used. I was afraid at first to use them.i had them for two years before I would fly them because I heard all the stories about launching etc. Now they are all I fly. Ease of use is the reason. In the buggy they are just a dream. What I came to find out is they aren't that hard to launch at all. Just make sure they are properly filled. And yeah there's that cool graphic thing too... I would kill to have that orange 15m.... :cool2:

This could be you....

Mark has valid point on ease of use with newer gear. The speed and light feel the have is what i think the only issue in beginner hands . the kite is gonna be punished as well the pilot .....the older turn rate is more newbie friendly....AND AS WELL the newer stuff can be detuned ...tough choices!

for me the bar feel contains the education of not having to look at the unit (as most newbs will have a tendency to do) and the rate of power thru the bar movement is smooth and consistent , the newer pulleyed kites have very steep rates and springy feedback (until it fires) for a seasoned flier you can find it and adjust for it and actually makes for a quick kite ...a beginner will kinda struggle thru this vague feel trying to use a fast kite as a slow kite.

...plus THAT vintage quiver is deeply sweet, a mountain of fun, brilliantly simple design and may contain a glimpse of the soul that this sport may actually have folks.

I agree that other than the 1600 F arc, the Scorpion is the most difficult to work with. A 15m Phantom was my first arc and I was very new at depower when I got it. First launch was not an issue, just rolled off the ground and went to zenith. I was totally sold a half hour of riding later when I went to the car for a drink and was able to reach into the car while the Phannie floated steadily at zenith.

The new Phantom II can be adjusted to be faster turning, or as slow turning as the original Phantom. It also might run a little faster head to head against a P1, if that's important.

How did the original phantom compare to the original venom? On the right day, my old venom really shined. It's a shame that just when it would start coming into its element I would have to turn. I felt like I was only getting a glimpse of what it was built to do.

Edit: Come to think of it, I think I had the venom II.

goofball's quiver is something you can't buy. It's a great price on a piece of history and kites whose designs have never been matched. So yes it's a unique piece of history and those kites deserve to be flown. If it helps you can't go wrong buying a p1 or a p2. After all you'll be flying an arc

Without a doubt though I feel the latest modern designs are another leap forward. Discussing arc history would be interesting with those who have many more hours then me.

If you do get the older bundle don't hesitate to fly something newer later on. It's fun to fly older arcs and then move forward and fly newer ones. It let's you take a tour of kiting history. I'll say the same about a newer arc. If you get one, fly a phantom or even f arc if you can later on. They are unique and compelling kites to fly. The other older arcs worthy of mention IMHO are the venom and synergy.

From a guy that flies the Phantom first gen kites almost exclusively, and has also flown the new Phantoms as well, I would still go after the first Gen. The newer Phantom does go upwind a little better, and does turn a bit faster,but the pure, predictable power of the first Gen, and having almost the full quiver available at the cost of one new phantom, it's a no brainer for me.

The biggest question is, where and what do you plan on doing with the phantom? I use mine in the buggy always and can hang with most anyone on the beach, and when I get on a ATB, I also put up the Phantoms. I have used my 15m on the water in 20+mph winds and it was so easy to use.

This past WBB, the winds were pushing 25mph and I threw up the 9m and it was very easy to control and I hit 41mph in a blink. Could have gone faster if I wasn't having a tire issue with the buggy, it was bouncing like a tire that lost a wheel weight. Another guy was using a Gin Tinkawa race kite, 4m I believe and he was doing about 5.5 mph faster, but if not for the tire issue, I think I would have been there right with him. Upwind we were almost equal.

I have flown the 15, 18, and 24m Phantom II and enjoyed flying them, but still preferred my first Gen.

You need a bar to go with the Phantom set and wonder if the PII with a bar is a better choice. The answer seems simple. Buy the set AND the PII and then sell whichever 15m you don't fly !

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

How did the original phantom compare to the original venom? On the right day, my old venom really shined. It's a shame that just when it would start coming into its element I would have to turn. I felt like I was only getting a glimpse of what it was built to do. Edit: Come to think of it, I think I had the venom II.

the venoms are quicker the larger ones have LOW SPEED GRUNT( not as much as a tube but close) not a common arc feature, most arcs without speed have so,so lower end use. and a little more power per meter of material with the venoms , bar pressure about the same. heres a vid of VI, VII, CHI on ATB

https://vimeo.com/39374869

i'm on the faded purple tan VI 13m,
the purple yellow VII 16m (flyguy)
greenwhite Ch I 15m (flyjump)
definitely shows tunablity , and quickness even with older units

Good call Bladerunner. If only I had the money. I'm planning on buying the 1st gen kites at this point. Super excited! Thanks for all the recommendation guys!