So what is the difference between these two kites?

I want to do both freestyle and touring so which one should I go for? Also what size should I pick to be able to do the freestyle, 14m or 12m? I already have a 11m apex4.

The best non gusty winds we get around here are west winds 10 to 15 mph

The Frenzy is designed to be a more playful and user friendly all rounder. The Summit is a higher AR and higher all round performance kite targeted towards more advanced riders. Size for freestyle is going to depend largely on what kind of "freestyle" you intend to do. In general turn rate is important when doing tricks and even a 12m in anything is going to be a bit on the big side of things for some freestyle moves.

The Frenzy is a better option in my opinion if you want to get into hucking. Faster turning with the lower AR and more playful for jumping than the Summit.

If you're considering a kite for light winds in the 14-15m range or dedicated touring both kites come in lightweight fabric. It really pays off in those sizes to shed a little weight in the wing. We don't list them on our website ATM as they are made to order. But if you would like to learn more about them just PM or email me.

So I was led to think you shouldn't go any smaller than 10m kite because anything smaller than that can drop you mid jump.

I completely agree on the turn rate, I want the turn rate of my 5m apex in my 11m and add some lift capability.

Is that what I will get with the Frenzy? Kind of think my second kite I purchased should of been a frenzy...

Sell your 11m apex and buy a frenzy or if you want to stay with HQ get a Montana. IMO you are generally always better served with high A/R big kites (for lower winds) and low A/R small kites (for bigger winds). I personally don't see much need for an Apex/Access like kite bigger than 6m. But that's just me and I don't mind getting some air now and again.

You haven't said how much you weigh and if you are touring on lumpy snow or smooth ice but unless you're a real big boy I'd think a 9-11m Frenzy/Montana sitting on top of your 5.5 Apex would be a great combo. There may be some overlap with your 8m but that could be a good kite to keep for lumpy / gusty days when you don't want to get lofted.

Dressed I am about 200 lbs. Plus a few more for the ski equipment.

The surface of course changes from day to day, I am on a frozen lake bead usually wind blowen and compacted.

Last year was odd, we had 10 feet of snow and usually 6 to 8 inches of fluffy snow. Would of been a nice fluffy surface to crash on:D

12m may be better at your weight. I'm 145 dressed and my go to kite is a 10m from 10 to 20ish depending upon how smooth the wind is. Below that I'm on my 14 and above that my 6 or 4.5 (depending upon how gusty it is).

100% agree with B-Roc. Low AR stable kites for high/gusty winds and higher AR for lower winds. I love my 9m Frenzy but wouldn't want anything smaller in the same model. It would be just too fast for my taste. It requires alot of attention when flown in it's upper wind range. I have a 6m Access for those days when the winds are nukin. It makes flying in high winds less scary because it's such a tame kite.

I originally was going to go 6m Access, 9m Frenzy, 12m Summit but found a decent deal on a 13m frenzy ultralite that fit the bill instead. Perhaps some day I will try a Summit......that's if those Peak 2's don't get me first

I agree with B-Roc and Cheddar, low AR for high winds and high AR for low are the best options in general. The 13m in Ultra light is a great kite. Fits that area between pure bred light wind kite and everyday kite. I like the trend I'm seeing of more kites coming in UL fabric, some like the Matrixx2, or the Viron and Peaks coming in UL as standard material. Hopefully more kites will in the future. :D

So it looks like you guys are recomending the 11m or 13m Frenzy.

So what can I expect from the Frenzy?

Is there more pull the the apex 11m? I would hope that it turns much faster than the 11m apex. I swear I could take a coffee break while waiting for that apex to turn around when looping through a turn.

I dont plan on trying to get big air, I would like to do some transition turns, low key stuff... but this looks like fun http://vimeo.com/channels/kitefreaks/page:523

How about the 2014 vs the 2015 kites?

2014 vs. 2015 Frenzy, almost an apples to oranges comparison. Similar in intended use but the 2015 has the new reride safety and the entire kite was redesigned. Higher AR than the 2014, leading edge stiffeners, new intakes etc. The biggest facelift the Frenzy has seen in half a decade.

Yes it will out turn your Apexs. Its a freestyle kite while the Apex is a touring wing. At one time there was a trade off in stability and gust handling when going from a touring kite like an Apex to a freestyle kite like a Frenzy. Much less so it seems these days.

The reride safety BTW, works sweet. Not just as a safety but as a means to secure the kite or simply land it.

It looks like you are getting some bang for your buck with the 2015 model. I watched the Ozone video looks cool!

Before I bite the bullet I just got to figure out the right size, at $1,300 to $1,500 for these kites I would like to buy a size that I can use often.


Does the apex 11m and Frenzy 11m pull the same?

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

I Does the apex 11m and Frenzy 11m pull the same?

Not knowing the projected area or # of cells for either, I am still going to say "no". Generally speaking higher A/R kites of the same size always fly closer to the edge of the window, fly and turn faster, offer more lift than grunt and cut upwind better. So even if they output the same power (and generally the higher A/R kite outputs more useable power based on projected area) the way they deliver power feels different (and usually feels like more). If the frenzy has more cells than the apex it will feel more rigid and you will feel that effect in the gusts and power strokes. An 11m Frenzy will definitely have better low end than your 11m Apex but potentially less high end depending upon how effective the depower is on either and how rigid/lofty it becomes for your comfort.

This just sucks being in an area where I cant try out the kite first. This is going to be a tough desision!

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

This is going to be a tough desision!

If the decision is between a 12, 13 or 14 and you're getting only one kite then I'd say get a 12 and since that rules out Ozone, I'd stay with HQ and get a Montana. But that recommendation is based on you selling your 11.

If you want to keep your 11 then the only kite that makes sense is a 14m (or a 13 if you want to a Frenzy).

If you sometimes feel overpowered on your 11 but think that's the type of conditions you'll normally fly then get an 11 Frenzy (better low end and more performance all around but likely overpowering in the same conditions unless it has better depower but doubtful based on the fact its potentially a bit more punchy given its A/R).

if you feel that the 11 apex leaves you wanting in power but capable of moving if you work the kite then get a 12 or 13.

IMO there will be a hole in your quiver going from a 14 and a 13 to an 8. There will potentially be a hole going from a 12 to an 8.

My kites are all 4m apart and all roughly the same A/R and there can be times when my 10 is too much but my 6 is still somewhat lacking (for the power I like to have). So if you are leaving more than a 4m gap between a high and low A/R kite then you are definitely going to create a power gap IMO.

The last time I was out on my apex 11m was Dec 11, I found myself underpower at times and had to work the kite to keep my speed up. Other times when the wind gusted I thought wow I need to change the knot in the power lines.

Here is what the National Weather Service said the weather was that day:


WIND (MPH) HIGHEST WIND SPEED 17 HIGHEST WIND DIRECTION SW (240)
HIGHEST GUST SPEED 20 HIGHEST GUST DIRECTION SW (240)
AVERAGE WIND SPEED 10.4


So looking at the chart on Ozone for the Frenzy it looks like I am going to be broke and need two kites 11m and a 9m, that 13 would be nice also. Maybe I'll win the lottery...

I would like to say that the apexes are great (because I own 3 of them) but to a certain extent, you're getting what you pay for versus the ozone stuff. My personal opinion is that the summit and the frenzy cover a wider range than the apexes and the depower is smoother and it just makes for a more controlled ride in general regardless of the handling. Comparing my 11m Frenzy to my 11m Apex though, in terms of using the trim to reach down into the lighter wind, it's difficult to describe, but with the ozone you get a reasonably well-handling kite when it's trimmed out, and trimming it in the kite will just pull slightly harder. With the Apex, I find that the trim needs to be set very carefully or it will be too much in one direction - either easy backstall or just barely flying and no power.

I know someone who will surely chime in if he sees this post here, but we both came to a sort of conclusion at one point in that if you're buying HQ's entry level stuff, it's not because you want a beginner kite, it's because you want to sample the sport first before committing all kinds of money. In gusty wind, at least, the ozone stuff was much more forgiving even though we were comparing the Apex (entry level) to more advanced level gear like Frenzy and Summit. Then comparing some of the foils that flysurfer has in their lineup and it's totally no-contest in terms of wind range. I don't know how the HQ Montana compares.

The great thing about foils in general though is that if you're aggressive with how you fly the smaller ones, they can still work just fine in lighter wind. Buying them 2m apart, I think you'll have a ridiculous amount of overlap. Jeff (from this forum), who I've been subtly referring to in this post will tell you about a time when he was teaching a friend on a 5m apex and it was perfectly usable (probably underpowered but would get you moving) while I was cruising around on a 15m flysurfer.

Some of the lineups don't really have what I could call 'flexible' spacing - meaning giving you a couple of reasonable ways to own a set without overlap. Apexes for example - 5, 8 and 11 - the gap from 5 to 11 would be a little large, but if they had like a 7 and 11 I feel like you wouldn't need a 5 unless you had 30mph wind. Anyway, 9m and 13m would probably be a reasonable gap. Be warned that everyone you talk to will give you 3 or 4 different opinions depending on the time of day you ask them.

To answer the original question more directly, it would probably be best to ask another question: "What have you tried to do with the Apexes you own that you didn't really like?"

For me, I got an 11m Frenzy when I could have just kept using my 11m Apex. Still have the Apex. Both seemed to work just fine doing whatever. For what I would think of when someone says "touring" maybe having more depower range is helpful there so that you can use a bigger kite and more power available when you need it? Both seemed just fine for lift. It all comes down to how fast you are willing to go before launching. Getting the ozone kite was all about comfort - so maybe that factors into "touring". Just a more ergonomic bar and loop - don't have to reach so far, smooth predictable depower in gusts. That type of thing. It was the size I used the most and I still have the 5m and 8m apex for windy days when it's just going to be a crazy time with whatever kite.

Well, I started with the 5.5 got use to that and thought I need a bigger kite so I got the 11 apex. The 5.5 was too small for much of anything so I picked up the 8m apex second hand.

Well now this year the 11m seems too small, and turns too slow. I am looking for faster turning kite and more lift, the 14 just seemed to be the next step... I like low wind kiting bacuse it is just a lot warmer out side. The winder it is the colder it is.

I guess now I am leaning back towards the 9m and 14m, I'll still keep my apex kites for really windy days or friends.

Given the ping above from Yeti (Brad) I figured I would go ahead and chime in

I had both the 5.5 and 8 Apex IV's. Brad was right - I was teaching a buddy to snow kite on the 5.5 while Brad was on his 15. My buddy claimed he needed the 8 which I wasn't confident he'd be ready for...so I hooked into the 5.5 and totally had no problem going up wind. So they do cover a huge range if you work a smaller kite like a scolded dog or if you want a huge kite and you have comfort they can be held down.

Last season I got a brand new Summit 12 meter and it is night and day over the Apex's in pretty much any significant way. I'd say the improvements I've read about in the 2015s they (ozone) have to be even better.

Based on my own experiences with Apex's vs my '14 Summit
1) WAY better bar/chicken loops/depower then the Apexs. In my opinion the Apex depower is not smooth and is not all that effective-for me Summit is much more so (but beware - the Summit is also a loft machine in comparison and as such can punish an unaware pilot)
2) The quasi closed cells of the Summit handle gusts and minor direction changes better then the Apex.
3) The safety on the Summit in my opinion is way better - having a quasi 5th line flagging was better then brake lines. The '15 looks to be even more effective and much easier to relaunch...and not having the leash wrap around the damned lines while looping for me was/is huge

I wound up adding a FlySurfer 6 meter Unity and sold both my Apex's - so foils I have the gap from 6 to 12 and have no problem. Although honestly given that I've added a 4.5 meter RPM, a 7 meter Razor to go along with 9 and 12 meter LEI's sometimes I'll hang an LEI instead.

Ideal kite size and model is in my humble opinion totally subjective depending on weight, snow or grass conditions, comfort, skis or boards used. Just last weekend I stayed on my 12 meter Summit snow kiting even though it was blowing 20 + easy. With that I could have pumped up my 4.5 and have been just as happy....and last season I would have been incredibly intimidated with the 20+ on the Summit. My only real advice is any newer kite is going to be damned awesome and everything I've blathered here is just that - blather based on my own experiences

Totally forgot to mention...my Summit turns pretty quick but really it is still a big kite at 12 meters with which to pivot. It loops much quicker then I would have expected but if I really want to loop my kites I'll usually dial down a few sizes so I can absolutely whip it around and have an entirely different experience.

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

I dont plan on trying to get big air, I would like to do some transition turns, low key stuff... but this looks like fun http://vimeo.com/channels/kitefreaks/page:523

What a great video! Amazing how they often got to throw in an extra move due to the extended float.

Quote: Originally posted by Chrisz

Well now this year the 11m seems too small, and turns too slow. I am looking for faster turning kite and more lift, the 14 just seemed to be the next step... I like low wind kiting bacuse it is just a lot warmer out side. The winder it is the colder it is.

The 11m Apex may not be fast turning, but it isn't exactly slow either for the type of kite that it is. My 15m speed 3 will barely do a full loop in wind where you'd actually want to loop it.

Out of the kites mentioned I'd probably say the frenzy is the fastest turning kite I've used at the 11m size. If you really want to have a direct stand-in for the Apex that just turns faster then that's probably the ticket. Maybe there's a school or something in your area that can let you demo a few?

Once you go larger than 11 or 12m you're looking at some really light wind, slow turning kites compared to the smaller sizes. That said, some people are saying good things about the single-skin FS Peak for light wind, so maybe there's an option where you could get a smaller, faster turning kite but with comparably more power for the size.

I've flown Dave's Peak and it is a super great kite and Dave has some recent videos on here that show it in action. Way cool design and much more affordable then the other kites mentioned but if more lift then an Apex is a deciding factor I'd look elsewhere. True that the Peak2 is reported to be more lofty then the Peak but it would have to be insanely better to approach even an Apex

Thanks for all the info, I just fot a wild idea...

Get the 11m Frenzy and a 14m LEI I can use in summer and winter. I'v always wanted to try out kite surfung! I have an 8,000 acre lake out my front door I should really take advantage if it both winter and summer.

Regarding those sizes... It's hard to compare apple and oranges, but quite often a given size(flat m²) of LEI will produce less power than a foil of the same size. Once again, there are many variables involved in the amount of power "kite X" will make. Just thinking of minimizing overlap here.

You burst my bubble:sniff:

I mapped put the wind conditions over the last month and a half, what Frenzy size would best suit my wind conditions?

Well it is done, the 11m Frenzy has been ordered:D and my credit card is smoking hot!

Right on man! Though it always sucks counting the days until you can get your hands on that crispy new ripstop!
Kite aside, you're going to love the refinement of that Ozone control system. Not to mention the new Re-ride setup has me totally intrigued.

I'll give you a review once I get the kite, I have 8 days off between now and the Monday after new years, should be plenty of time to get the feel if it!

Congrats! You will love that kite.

I was out with my 13m frenzy yesterday in light winds. From 9m to 13m frenzy, the difference in turn rate is staggering. There's just no way around it.......large kites simply turn slow. That 13m sure has some grunt though!:o