So if you don't know, I've injured myself... I had the kite too high in a turn when a gust hit... I was lofted high enough that when I hit the ground I severely broke my heel bone and am slated for surgery Tuesday.

So as you can imagine as a father of 4, husband of 1 and sole breadwinner in the household, this injury is effecting everyone such that there have been conversations about how to proceed and whether or not it's time to put away the kites. Ashli thinks I shouldn't give it up; so it is good to know she is supportive of whatever I decide.

I can see now that I need to revamp my thinking and how I approach my kiting... If I decide to continue (which I'm still not 100% sure I WANT to), I plan to cut back on my urge to go fast as well as on my obsessiveness about fitting it in wherever and whenever possible. I think the the combination of these two caused me to cut corners and not be as safety conscious as perhaps I should have been.

All of that also is making me reconsider my quiver. I have LOVED my Reactors, but in the interest of not repeating what I am going through now, I'm wondering if there is a safer choice... With all the discussion about the NASA Star 2's and 3's I'm wondering if they might be a better choice for me? Obviously, I'm concerned primarily about being lofted again... No thanks... Are the NASAs better about that? Any advice on a non-lofty quiver? Tell me more about the NS's safeties?

Any advice is welcome... I can take my lumps too... I'm already hurtin bad, I probably deserve it.

Please share your thoughts

Late last year into the beginning of this year I was dead set on gathering a quiver of the late model Reactors that I did get a couple of. Though a problem presented itself.... They just weren't to usable when I decided to go for a quick fly in town, which often gets gusts double the base wind speeds(shameless plug: anyone interested in a 5m Blurr:D). Then I found the ozone access's. I would recommend anyone flying in crappy winds to give them a shot. The 8m I have is pretty much my 1 kite inland wind quiver. Only thing it lacks is in the upwind department, but I never have to walk it back by any means and I'm sure it's still much better than the NS's in that regard. I should also mention and others can tell you that I can still give you a run for your money in nice winds on the beach to boot(I'm looking at you Bobby! ) Never been bitten by either of them yet..... knock on wood.... which is more than I can say for the FB's I had. Just a thought.

#1 - Any kite can overpower you in a gust

#2 - your own skills can save you to a point... after that you are at the mercy of the wind

#3 - A quick release can be useful or just bulking up the upper body strength and hanging on - no harness!

#4 - Be very careful moving from Fb to Depower - The first thing a FB kiter will do is hang on and take the power in your arms... You know what happens when you try that with a depower!!!

My own opinion is a tube kite might be the safest way to go as you can tune them to make almost no power with the bar out. 30 - 40 knots, 9meter kite and I could let the bar out and still sink back into the water with the kite at zenith... Now the water is easier to crash easily without body damage unless you hit your board.

Spencer my friend, don't give up kiting please. Nothing wrong with your Reactors. I think we have very similar wind, and stropping in my janky just isn't going to happen. I'll save that for the clean ocean air with an AQR. In the mean time, I only fly FBs Pop Eye arm style with janky inland wind. Just too many of mother nature's variables.

Get well soon my friend, and see you on the sands of Jekyll.

This is a topic I'm passionate about since I've gutted my quiver twice over to find kites that I feel comfortable being hooked to and use in my gust lull inland conditions. The ns2's safety is simple and effective, but more importantly, it will give you more time to react to pull the safety than higher ar kites. NS2's are not lofty unless you fly them in too much wind for the size and you are grossly overpowered. They are not without risk, but I do feel more safe and comfortable using them than the other kites I have flown. I also feel very comfortable with the peak, but I can't comment on it until I'm able to use it in the buggy. My general feeling with the peak from my static flights is it has a very effective depower which I can't help but think that will translate very well for gusts while in the buggy.

The Ozone Access is brought up a lot for being good for inland wind. I haven't flown one obviously.

SLE's are well known for their depower but my guess is they wouldn't handle lulls as well which is why I personally haven't considered a foil or an inflatable. (I'm guessing on this one, so someone with more experience can speak to that aspect)

I personally like single skin design for the ease at which they fly and their ability to fly well during lulls.

My guess is that I would like an "access like" kite a lot, but personally I'll probably stay the course with what I've finally found that is working well.

Tough calls to make, but given my research you can fly what you have unhooked (with the exception of aqr and ocean air), or go the way of depower / nasa

When your healed up, let me know if you want to try out one of my kites and I'll send it your way.

Sorry to hear about your fall. For now heal up not give up.

I'd have to second what Sean says. I'm pretty paranoid about safety to the point where I'll never be a really good kite flyer 'cos I just aint willing to push the envelope. I"m happy to cruise around and feel the wind in my hair - what little there is left of it. I've grown to love the safety, responsiveness and ease of flying the NS2's above all my other kites - including the Ozone Access and HQ Apex. Last time I flew anything other than the NS2's was November 2013 - took my 4m Access out to the point and back at Sandy Point - it was still pretty gusty and I felt a little unsettled by the nervous nature of the 4m (and they're not nervous kites by any stretch). I got back to where I'd left my stuff and put the 2.5m NS2 up instead and repeated the trip - maybe a couple kph slower, but the kite felt much more stable and friendly and I was more relaxed flying it.

You can throw them up behind you to slow down much harder than you would with a foil. I've been lifted maybe an inch out of my seat in a 20knot gust flying the 5.5m but that's about as lifty as I've found them. I've never flown an LEI or spent any real time on an ARC, or flown the Peak for that matter, but compared to all the other kites I have flown, there's absolutely no question that I feel FAR safer flying the NS2's. I'm also the slowest buggier on the beach with them too....

What I really like about them (and this is probably true of all Nasa's) is they create most of their power at slow speeds and don't have the tendency to collapse, drift back into the window, unfurl and go POW like some of my foils do in gusty conditions. As far as safety systems go, check out the Pro Depower bar video that I did.

They still make a shirt load of power at relatively slow speeds, so the potential for injury is still there - I just feel the odds are a little more on my side with 'em.

Probably safer still is a Blokart - if you get knocked over in gust, the mast holds you up and you're strapped in so no getting dragged across the beach by a kite - just a thought!

I've had a couple of buggy accidents - one minor and another that could have gone really, really horribly wrong and I was very lucky to get out of it with a black eye - and that feeling still haunts me - particularly as I often fly alone and isolated. It's always a trick when weighing up risks v rewards. I gave up gliding 'cos I thought the risks outweighed the rewards and didn't go further than an introductory lesson with paragliders for the same reason (ok, the instructor had something to do with it too).

You don't have to make any decisions today, tomorrow or next week. Understand what went wrong and how to avoid it ever happening again. But it would be nice to think that if you're standing in a park, or down the beach and feel that nice steady wind on your face, you'll say to yourself, hey, what a great day....I'm gonna go and get the buggy out....

I agree with the above. Heal first and take your time making a decision. I'd like to echo what's been said about the NS2s - very, very low lift kites.

I'd also recommend an AQR. I fly stropped in using an AQR with my FB kites all the time and I fly in some really janky winds. My AQR has released three times in the blink off an eye. One second I was flying my kite and then before I even registered what was happening, it had released. It happens that quick. I tried to 'popeye' it a few times in janky conditions but became worried that I was teaching myself to hold onto the handles too tight. Then when switching over to the AQR there would be a risk that I'd get lofted even if it auto-released owing to the fact that I had a death grip on the handles. I've had to practice flying on handles with a lighter grip.

My suggestion is to persevere with flying stropped using an AQR, especially when the wind is janky. If it's still way too janky to fly stropped in on any given day, then pull out the Nasa's. That way you've got lots of choices to fly safely and still have heaps of fun.

Spencer. I really do understand your concerns and lessened desire. I no longer Will board in my mtn winds but still buggy. Have decided that board and jumps require clean winds. As for safety USE YOUR AQR. There is not a need to change kites or get something new just use the tools you already have. Not trying to be an a$$, but since budget is tight I think you need to use what you have. Fwiw I fly a lot less since my accident because of fear and I generally still feel it everyday but "moving by what cannot be seen" still makes me smile in a very special way
Scott

ouch on the injury!

use what you got , you are gonna be super sensitive to everything that alone will make it safer.

rest recovery first.

Your reactor is designed to not be a lifty kite, so it maybe could use some adjustment. I can help if you want to tweak it.

Lei kites are probably my first choice now in extreme winds due to their ability to significantly depower and they will never collapse and reinflate deep in the window. However, they are not a solution for a quick session in wind that drops to nothing. You can't beat a big fixed bridle for that.

The depower foils such as Access and Montana give me a safe feeling that they aren't going to surprise you with anything. Meat Driver gets along great on his Access. On his beach and the wind of the day, I couldn't pass him with my 5.4m Vapor. Maybe I could've gone up a size but there were certainly no performance glitches in his Access. My Montana has a quick and intuitive safety that immediately ends whatever you don't like it doing. On that note, I've never in 7 years been unexpectedly lofted by a Montana. They are lifty kites by design, but the lift is controllable and only kicks in when you tell it to. I've frequently had a 7-8m up to the upper 50s in the buggy and 2 runs this past spring over 60 mph. The kite was never threatening to luff or jump around or anything else I didn't tell it to do.

You getting hurt will make you highly attentive and very cautious when you fly again and for years to come. That's not a bad thing. I've had times after a half hour loading the car and a 40 minute drive to Ivanpah, that I've either not even unloaded anything or took 2 passes and came back to camp to load up and go home unhurt with all my equipment in good order. There is no shame in packing it up to fly another day. There is a fine line between an epic session and being foolhardy. Work on approaching epic and don't ever be foolhardy.

Quote by Bladerunner on another thread "Of the 3 I think Nasa wing is most forgiving, Arc is most entertaining and FB is most frustrating. "

This was the deciding statement for me to choose a different route for inland kiting.

Lots of good points in that thread. Here

Bought a panic snap(QR) for use with FB on strope... but never used 'em.

Part one:

Do Pilots make mistakes in kite handling? In choosing wrong kite? Was mishap/accident just a mishandling of kite, or brief loss of attention...or did the wind do something unexpected at that moment?....

Pilots control their decisions..not the wind. They control their muscles-how they launch, steer, position and generally handle kite... or perhaps until fatigued and weak..... but not the wind.

I try to feel a symbiosis with the wind. Have a little meeting with her and see her nature after a standing around, get-to-know-you period. This can take a few minutes to quarter hour+ if her mood seems to be changing a lot.


Then I choose a kite. One that can handle her worse outburst from the introduction period. But the wind can change into a different animal not present in the introduction. I try to be aware, stop.... and make immediate re-introduction. There may be a change of kite.... but unfortunately I an not usually back where I started..and unlike some, I don't carry other kites with me in luggage compartment. Carefully pilot back(Kite outside of fullest power part of power window)or walk back is choice if I need a smaller kite- 'stat'.

There is always packing up and leaving..or not going out in first place as a choice.

Part two:
This sport has risks. People take different risk levels within it, and also try to mitigate those level of risks differently.

Some fly depower with quick release. Some fly FB unharnessed-'Popeye arming it'. Some fly FB hooked in with harness. Some add a QR device to FB hooked in flying. Some have a AQR set up. Which is safer, safest...you probably know. Any 100% failsafe?....

Body armor is worn by some. Hopefully all wear helmets.

There are other sports with risks...some more complicated than this. It is all about mitigating risks and choices. And for each person both the choice and risk might be different...as well as the degree of mitigation.

I try to fly in most conditions(even bad) and if not using the highest level of failsafe devices(I'm not-no QR or AQR), I try to use the best kite for control, fly with the most attention, back off on the aggression .
When I become way too anxious and the challenge to control the kite and my fear overtakes my sense of fun.... I put it all away.

PS...
I am not the safest acting one to be posting this. Do not get that impression. Flying and riding in up to 40mph gust winds, doing kite jumping, and such. This is just a personal perspective of sports risk in general or relating to kiting spacifically.

Sorry to hear about your injury. Having a kite related injury can be traumatic and can make some people gun-shy - it's just a natural "survival" response. But if you want to continue with kiting there is nothing wrong with adjusting your philosophy about how you ride or your choice of kites.

I my experience of riding and teaching lots of people to kitesurf I have found that "confidence" can be just as important as having some skills, as a "sports psychology" issue. Even though you have skills your enjoyment might be diminished by your worries about re-injury or exacerbating an existing injury...and this is very understandable. Nobody (well, not many anyway) wants to relive pain, crippling injury, loss of income, anxiety, etc...

But if you love kiting enough you will continue one way or the other. I have flown quite a few kites, mostly LEI's on the water and snow, and more recently some foils on the snow. Even on the water it is nice to have a kite that you feel safe with - i.e. predictable, easy to depower, good wind range/gust busting, reliable safety mechanisms, etc. Some kites and control systems are better than others IMO.

I had shyed away from foils for a long time mostly because of depower issues, quirky flying traits, relaunch issues, bridle issues,etc...although I have always known there are some benefits to foils as well. Last winter I started flying the Flysurfer Peak1 kites and it was a game changer for me with respect to my sentiments toward foils. Aside from the incredible ease of use I found the kites to have good stability, good depower, good gust handling, easy relaunch, etc...You might want to give them a try. The new Peak2 has even more depower and wind range because they have added a trim strap - the Peak1 only had the sheetable bar, which is actually pretty good by itself.

If you are ever up in Michigan and want to try the Peak let me know. If you want more info I would be happy to talk to you about them.

Otherwise I hope you heal up fast and get back out with a kite as soon as possible.

Here's where I'm at guys, I am in complete comprehension of the fact that this is an extreme sport and that there are risks involved... I could tell you that I knew that going in, but we all have a tendency to believe the lie we tell ourselves that "it won't happen to me" and I'd gotten to a point with my riding that I was confident and very well in control. That sense put me in a place where believing "it won't happen" and overconfidence had me less attentive to safety... I have an AQR, but I haven't been using it because I've told myself I could react quick enough to handle it without bring tethered to the bug. And perhaps I should have had out the 3.5m or the 4m instead of the 5.5m... Etc etc etc

But here's the thing I keep coming back to, I am fully aware of ALL the tings I could have done differently, but there are STILL a truckload of things that I have NO control of... The things that can SCREW your life up just as badly as being careless... Even the most experienced pilot can get toasted by all sorts of bad circumstances... SO... I'd like to minimize the risk associated with the things I cannot control.

I have watched the stress in my wife's face as she holds the baby in one arm and does whatever else with the other while the older kids are about doing whatever... I'm finding ways to help as best as I can in spite of immobility, but I can't deny the guilt I feel over that.

The easiest and simplest solution is to quit and sell all the gear... That by default removes ANY and all possibility of this happening again, but SHE tells me not to quit,... "I could just as easily cut my finger off while scrapbooking or get into a car accident, BUT..."

It's like I said above, since I DO LOVE this sport, if I decide to continue, I need to revamp how I interact with it... I have crossed over the fine line between passion and obsession and let it take up FAR too much mental space and screwed up my priorities... If I continue first and foremost I HAVE to tone it down on all fronts, or it will affect more of my life than simply my physical capability...

So back to minimizing risk... Take for example what we ALWAYS tell newbies: any kite will lift you, but some will do it easier than others... I know that my RIIs are not the liftiest kites but the fact is that there are others that are LESS lifty... They may not be as high performance, but if I account for how I need to revamp my thinking, performance should not be a high concern...

I like what I hear about NASA stars... I'm intrigued... But still I have no need to make any decision any time soon, but I can tell you, I WILL NOT put my family in this place again, kites or no.

That's where I'm at

Many thanks to Jeff for the call, it was great talking to you again.

Hey Spencer - good luck with your surgery. Hope it all goes well. As you know, I've got a Nasa Star 2 and a NPW9 made by Susan. You are welcome to give them a try if you would like at some point in the future.

Glad to know the wife didnt leave with the kids, you got a great family. Good to hear they are on the top of your list. Heal soon.

Thanks Randy, I may take you up on that in a couple of months

Here's a thought for safety. Why do we always recommend depower after the 3 meter stage for people interested in board sports and not buggy? Answer: depower is more forgiving in gusts and you can maintain balance easier. If that's true than why not go directly to depower when using a buggy? In other words, in general, the right type of depower is more forgiving and easier to use than their fb counter parts. If fb was just as easy and safe to use than their would be almost no need for more expensive depowers. In my opinion, hooked in and using fb is the highest level of progression, skill, and risk, yet most start there because it's the easier and cheapest starting out. Obviously all of the above is based on the rider desiring to ride harnessed. On the flip side, a quiver of fb and remaining unhooked is one of the safest options. All I'm saying is that it seems a lot of people (myself included) go directly from the safest stage to the most dangerous and skip the largest category of kiting, that in my opinion is the most manageable way of handling power. The ns2 is an entire other category that's also an awesome way to harness wind in a manageable way that seems to be almost entirely overlooked by kiters and the kite industry. I'm not knocking fb. I think it's great if you have clean wind and you want the maximum thrill of direct power.

I had two OBE's the other day within like 20 minutes of each other a couple weeks ago on my Charger. One of them was mostly because a dog off leash charged at me and I had to make an emergency adjustment in the middle of a turn not to hit the dog with the buggy or wrap it in lines. The other was a combination of hitting a sand bank and launching myself in the air, and having the kite high to bleed speed before hitting said sand bank, which kept me in the air a fraction of a second longer than my buggy. Both of them could have ended badly, but I can't help but think that neither would have happened the same way if I was flying an NS2.

FWIW as of snowkite season before last we have pretty much discontinued using fixed bridle trainers with our students. When we have options like 3.5m Apex 4s which handle gusts better and allow for substantial depower while at the same time taking the confusion out of shifting from a fixed bridle trainer to a depower, it just makes good sense. That said we teach everyone to use kite placement as your primary method of power management with depower being a nice secondary. This way if you get caught out beyond the mechanical depower range of your kite you have the skillset to get yourself back safely.

I guess a lot of choices of what people ride are based on region and tradition. I think many have a skewed view of what "gusty" conditions are. For example I was in Cocoa Beach and the gust factor was about 3kts and I was told it was "gusty". I had to laugh. For my part I don't see the advantage of FB beyond turn rate and raw power and here in a region where gust factor is considerable FB aren't practical and certainly not safe. When I started out I started on FB and the first time out decided there was no way in hell I would ride FB hooked in.

In the snow kite and kite surf categories FB has been abandoned. Ozone saw the writing on the wall and ended their FB production. The only hold outs are the buggy riders, many of which have started dabbling in depower fairly recently, and land boarders (though it seems they are going depow).

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Here's a thought for safety. Why do we always recommend depower after the 3 meter stage for people interested in board sports and not buggy? Answer: depower is more forgiving in gusts and you can maintain balance easier. If that's true than why not go directly to depower when using a buggy? In other words, in general, the right type of depower is more forgiving and easier to use than their fb counter parts. If fb was just as easy and safe to use than their would be almost no need for more expensive depowers. In my opinion, hooked in and using fb is the highest level of progression, skill, and risk, yet most start there because it's the easier and cheapest starting out. Obviously all of the above is based on the rider desiring to ride harnessed. On the flip side, a quiver of fb and remaining unhooked is one of the safest options. All I'm saying is that it seems a lot of people (myself included) go directly from the safest stage to the most dangerous and skip the largest category of kiting, that in my opinion is the most manageable way of handling power. The ns2 is an entire other category that's also an awesome way to harness wind in a manageable way that seems to be almost entirely overlooked by kiters and the kite industry. I'm not knocking fb. I think it's great if you have clean wind and you want the maximum thrill of direct power.

Traditionally I suppose, depower is seen as a tool for people who want to go vertical, whereas FB is a weapon used more often than not to go horizontal. It could be that simple.
I'm not sure if FB hooked in is the highest level of progression, but skill and risk definately. You may progress better with something completely different.

Thanks Redsky, I may have overstated that a bit :P

I'm giving the NS3s serious consideration... I can certainly say the thought of passing on my RIIs puts a twinge in my heart a little, I know I'll miss them if I go that route, but I can't go to something else without letting something go first.

I'm to the point now where I'm not giving as serious consideration to quitting all together as I was before, but we'll see how I feel after surgery tomorrow :barf:

If you didn't catch that I have surgery tomorrow at noon, ... Prayers and well wishes are appreciated!!

On a side note, after 7 days of my PL bug just chillin on the back of my kite mobile, my awesome wife went out and took it off my car

Good luck tomorrow. BTW what do they have planned for you if I may ask?

You'll be fine tomorrow.

Very best wishes for a perfect healing and stronger than ever.

Quote: Originally posted by Feyd

Good luck tomorrow. BTW what do they have planned for you if I may ask?

From what I understand it involves a metal plate and screws.... FWIW many of the medical professionals have commented on how I "did a really good job" of breaking it... The CT tech particularly commenting with a quite amazed expression and asking how high I fell from.

I know the procedure is by no means major, but still the thought of being under anesthesia and under the knife puts the nerves on end. My faith plays a big role in my comfort in spite of that, so for those of you who place value in that same stock, your prayers are particularly appreciated. I genuinely appreciate the thoughts and well wishes of all of you.

Gonna watch some NS2 vids now by way of Mr. Holgate

Well I guess if you're going to do something you should do it well! :P

Sorry you gotta go in. Any time you have to be put under for someone to split your seams and tinker with you inside bits sucks and puts you on edge. But at least you're dealing with an ortho issue and not something more difficult to nail down. It's nice when plates and screws are the clear cut solution and they aren't talking soft tissue or doner bone material. Your ortho is essentially a mechanic (with the bedside manner to match usually):D and he/she will get the job done and put you all back together no worries.

The recovery will take time and it will be a while before you feel 100% but it will come. Just be sure to follow the post op procedures, kick some ass in PT and you'll be better sooner than you think.

Good luck tomorrow, and try not to worry because it will be fine.

A few days have passed and you have had some time to reflect. Have you figured out just how high you got lofted? Not that that is relevant. Was just curious. I feel for ya bud. I've really enjoyed what little time I've flown my NS2s. My 7m just showed up today. John has some amazing videos.

Your surgery will go fine bud. Get well soon!