Okay, so something similar has likely been posted at some point, but I'm going to ask for advice on it anyway.

I'm a skier. I live on a nice big, frozen, snowy lake. I would love to go out and cruise with something fast. I'm not much for tricks, but the ability to get some nice hops would be an added bonus.

I was looking at the ozone access 6m or 8m at first. But the more I look around the less sure I am. A Frenzy 7m or 9m would probably be much better going for a rip. I'm looking for suggestions and advice. (But none of that start slow buisness, i go hard). What kind of speed can you get out of an access? Would there be an alternative to consider besides the Frenzy? The more affordable the better, I don't want to spend much more than 1000$. THANKS!

P.S. I'm 190 lbs if that makes much difference

Where are you? We want you to take a lesson...or a bunch of them. Teaching yourself is a painful experience only recommended for very young and dumb people (like I was!). Not taking lessons is a good way to get kiting banned wherever your corpse ends up. I am not trying to be rough/rude, it's just that possibility for serious injury is much higher in this sport than new people assume it would be. It's also the most fun I ever had, so the scales seem pretty even.

Fair enough response (which is why I included the brackets in my original post... jez). A lesson is simply not possible, I live in rural Canada. I have basic understanding of flight dynamics/wind/dangerous conditions from piloting experience. I have also been researching kites. Kiting would never be banned any more than hang gliding would be... more regulated though I suppose. Anyway, nothing you can do to stop me

But seriously guys. I want something fast and not a lot of lift. Preferably something that is depowering. Re-ride safety would be nice too.

Fast on skis is as dependent on your skiing ability, the wind conditions and surface conditions as much as the kite. Race kites for example are fast but the fastest snow kiters have all managed their top speeds on generally low AR, low lift touring style kites.

The 2015 Ozone Access fits all the criteria you outlined. For speed focused flying the 4 or 6m would be the best option. Although in your weight range the 8m has some substantial high wind usability with added versatility in less than nuking winds.

It is also a kite that is less likely to kill you and simply maim in the event your lack of expirience and training cause you to do something dumb like put the kite in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My only request as you begin this quest for speed on a kite is that you be sure to do it where you won't hurt anyone but yourself, let your next of kin know where to recover what's left, and keep the publicity to a minimum so as not to show snowkiting in a bad light. There's enough of that out there.

Good luck buddy.

I've got ONE last 9m Peter Lynn Lynx in last years colors for less than $800. NEW complete. Shipping to Canada runs about $65 as I just sent one up that way two weeks ago.

So... Let us know where in the "ruralness" you are. There's bound to be someone that'll be willing to get a kite into your hands to learn with. (Feel free to read every other post that says "start with a 3 meter")

Be cautious as well and recognize that often speed is brought with higher Apect Ratio (AR) and higher AR can often also mean more lifting potential, which in the hands of someone new to the sport can be a dangerous combination. If you are intent on starting with Depower, which some people do, then I would say Ozone Access or HQ Apex. I'm not into depower but I hear all good about these 2. They will also be easier to manage as s starter.

Aside from that Feyd is right, especially with inland winds, you will do MUCH. Better with a lower AR style kite (even speed wise) because as the wind becomes more unstable, your kite must be more stable to compensate.

Good luck

buy a 3m kite...learn how to handle it till you dont even have to think about it anymore
you know, like the way you can ski...be a pilot
add skis and some frozen ground (any type)
and Walla!....your still posting and well on your way to where you wanna be

I completely agree with abkayak. Unless you have someone to help you with depower and show you the ropes, you'll end up frustrated or worse and give up before you start. I'm self taught and forum taught, but I started small and worked my way up. You'll have the additional challenge of kite management on ice that you will need to master as well.

If at all possible, try to get lessons or find someone who will show you how it works & let you try it out. After that you can continue practicing with your own kite, which could be a 6-10m low-AR depower for example. (impossible to recommend a size without knowing the wind conditions)

And about speed: Race kites go upwind faster than most other kites and they build a lot of "apparent wind". While they are fast, speed records are usually set with lower AR kites. The fastest kites tend to be lowish-AR with a deep profile and flat shape.
But you really don't need to worry about this, any kite will get you going plenty fast and there are many other factors which have a much greater impact on your speed than the kite you use. I used to ride an Access and my PB with it was 72.something km/h and I am sure many others have gone a lot faster with it!

Hey, I know you wanna "go hard" but i can tell you from personal experience that even with experience, "going hard" is very difficult with broken limbs. I genuinely appreciate a go-get-'em attitude but in all seriousness, this stuff can get you hurt badly (or even dead) faster than you can say "GO HARD"...

I thought I could start with a big kite because I had some limited similar experience,... big mistake,... I nearly dislocated my knee cap... again

Fast forward 3 years to now when I've been trying to "go hard" in an attempt to beat my previous top speed and got myself lofted 10-15 feet in the air and subsequently broke my heel. Right now I'm 4 weeks passed from surgery and still 4 weeks out from being able to walk.

So please take the advice here seriously. Theres SO much more to be said for training yourself to FLY the kite rather than jumping in full boar and only learning to react and survive.

Its hard to "go hard" when you can't even go.

Most of us here genuinely want you to enjoy this sport and don't want to see you go out, spend $1000 on a kite and harness, just to get frustrated after a couple of tries, and then sell off your stuff for some other adventure. I bet there are quite a few Canadian kiters on the forum here who would be more than happy to meet up for a couple of hours of intro to depower kiting. A couple of hours of depower fundamentals and tips from them is worth at least a couple of months of learning on your own.

Nothing wrong with Ozones, but from what I've been reading on the forums, one of those Flysurfer Peaks would be a great first depower and provide as much speed as anything else...

A lot of good advice from everyone and like Howard I'm curious where you are - i think you'd be surprised by how many kiters there are around even though you may not see one. Even though there are hundreds that get out winter kite skiing and snowboarding in southern ontario (and many throughout Canada) I still have people come up all the time to say it's the first time they've seen it.
There is a good chance we could recommend a contact or place to get out and see what's going on. If you are in southern Ontario you are are always welcome to come out and join in and most of us are willing to show you quite a bit with different kites and equipment and I always lend out kites for people to try different things before buying.
There are many very good used kites around through locals and also options for new and even still some of last years new around locally and you can get good deals and also save on the 20% hit on US exchange right now.
It would be really good to see something fist because if you are like most inland lakes with vey gusty high winter winds and increased boost with cold dense air it's going to be a lot different than advice based on steady winds.

...Abkayak is correct....You have to learn to walk before you can run....You didn't go to the top of the mountain for your first ski run.....you eventually got better and better till you were able to do it without being worried or putting yourself/others at risk.

A good 3m kite would be perfect for learning...Bigger for de-power (you'll need to ask those experienced in them). I only fly fixed bridles. Been going on the lake for years and even with a 3m it gets a little scary sometimes. You can be smiling one second and the next be airborne at a point where "stuff" is breaking.

You'll have a blast...Read all the comments and make the best decision....ask questions...we are all here for you...Most import..WEAR A HELMET very minimum (elbow protectors are not a bad idea when starting off). Pointy elbows and hard ice don't mix...

If you notice we all have more than one kite. There is a VERY GOOD reason for that. You will find you need a low wind kite, average wind kite and a high wind kite. If you only have say a 9m kite you can be sure it will not be very windy and it won't be enough. OR you will be tempted to take it out in too much wind and that is potentially the BIGGEST possible mistake! Always choose your kite by the speed of the wind gust NOT the average wind speed! Wind speed typically changes as you move about the lake. Often stronger in the middle.

You can't do this sport on a budget! That said, if money is tight you are much better off shopping used. Get a quality used 6 or 7m kite knowing you will NEED a second ( or typically 3rd ) kite. You can really work a smaller kite and create apparent wind because they are light + turn so fast. Learning how to create power from a smaller faster kite will make you a much better pilot than protecting yourself from a larger / slower one. If you want to go fast then you want to eventually be riding in strong winds. A 6 - 7m will work for that. A 9m won't!!! You should be able to find something that size in good shape between $ 4-600? That will leave you with lots towards a second kite. If you find that you often have light winds you can buy a large second kite and have a gap between your kites range. If you find it is usually windy but you want more power +lift a 9 - 11 would compliment a 6-7.

One of our crew is a pilot. He is definitely NOT the best kite pilot around here. Young people seem to be the ones who take to this sport naturally. Don't count on your pilot experience being a big boost in kiting.

I know it goes against your thinking but believe me when I tell you, you will progress MUCH faster if you start with a 6 or 7m kite. You will want a less lifty lower aspect kite like an Access or Apex for those higher winds and faster speeds. Once you have mastered it then you can go more lifty like the Frenzy for your larger ( better to jump with a larger kite ) second kite.

Winter lake winds can be gusty. The Flysurfer Peak is going at a real good price second hand these days. It is a very different, single skin kite and handles gusty winds very well. You should search the reviews on the kite on this forum. Talk to Feyd direct if you have questions about the kite. He is a great guy who has been using them in his school etc. and has tons of 1st hand knowledge about the kite.

Wear your hockey helmet EH ! :bigok:

+1 on the Flysurfer Peak.. the 6m Peak 1's (used) fit well within your $1000 budget, and they are all the rave about how well they suit beginners.

Thanks for the advice everyone especially Feyd, Soliver, and Bladerunner (but no thanks to you naysayers!). For those asking for my location it’s a dingy little town called Sioux Lookout, Ontario. Thanks for the invite Markite, but I’d be driving for 2 days to get there. Winds very greatly here, one day it may be 3 knots the next it will be 15. I intend to get a kite large enough to learn the ropes on calm days so it will still be fun on windier days when I’ve got the basics down. Then I’ll fly it in 40 knots gusting 50 (kidding… settle down). Sounds like no one has anything bad to say about the Access. I checked out those Peaks, they look like they’re just as good of an all-around kite

Quote: Originally posted by iwanakite

(but no thanks to you naysayers!)

If you're not on a first name basis with your local emergency room, I'm guessing you soon will be.

@ erratic winds

Don't be so negative. Have a little faith that people aren't completely hopeless on their own. If someone didn't learn how to kite by themselves it wouldn't exist. You're just straight to the fatalities and serious injury. You won't need me to give kiting a bad name if you keep talking about it like that.

I'd have a little faith in you if you weren't proud of ignoring the advice you've been given, as it stands, I feel entirely comfortable with my comments.

I'm so terribly sorry that my speaking truthfully about what can happen in this sport seems to give you confidence that you're somehow better/smarter/tougher than all the people who have been injured while teaching themselves.

Best of luck to you.

I didn't say any of that, but calling me young/dumb and talking about my corpse like I was already dead (even if you did it halfway nicely) wasn't really a good start. Anyway, thankee kindly for the luck.

An observation:

Asking for advice requires listening to what's given . It's a false humility to ask for advice but then put up any caveat that you won't accept certain advice("But none of that start slow buisness, i go hard").

It wasn't just eratic winds..... but he seems to be singled out as 'naysayer' and negative........ when Feyd and Soliver mention 'kill and maim... and 'dumb' also', 'hurt and dead' respectively from each...

...yet they are thanked(especially)?

People here are trying to be helpful and respectful and it is being misinterpreted because of your hubris.

Cautioning someone as part of advice- who asked advice to begin with- is not being negative.
This sport is fun but can be dangerous. To not give caution in advice to someone WHO HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE would be negligent.

When asking advice you can't pick and choose what you want to hear. Nor should one be take anything personal and be defensive. Well, you can I suppose...but why ask?

The logic of, "If someone didn't learn how to kite by themselves it wouldn't exist" bears no value on proper learning ...and certainly not on safety in learning.

Maybe you missed my comments above...

Quote: Originally posted by soliver

Hey, I know you wanna "go hard" but i can tell you from personal experience that even with experience, "going hard" is very difficult with broken limbs. I genuinely appreciate a go-get-'em attitude but in all seriousness, this stuff can get you hurt badly (or even dead) faster than you can say "GO HARD"... I thought I could start with a big kite because I had some limited similar experience,... big mistake,... I nearly dislocated my knee cap... again Fast forward 3 years to now when I've been trying to "go hard" in an attempt to beat my previous top speed and got myself lofted 10-15 feet in the air and subsequently broke my heel. Right now I'm 4 weeks passed from surgery and still 4 weeks out from being able to walk. So please take the advice here seriously. Theres SO much more to be said for training yourself to FLY the kite rather than jumping in full boar and only learning to react and survive. Its hard to "go hard" when you can't even go.

Here's the latest update on my recovery if you want to take the time to look it over.
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=29625
Here's a related thread partially on my injury and partially my thoughts on safety
http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=29612

Understand:
By no means are we trying to dissuade you from the sport or tell you that you can't do anything on your own... We are simply trying to advise you toward your BEST POSSIBLE outcome. Not only because of the tremendous costs to you associated with the WORST possible outcome, but because of the VERY real possibility that it can seriously effect the rest of us who have already been enjoying this sport for a while.

There is nothing wrong at all with humility, and while you may be just having fun at some people's expense (primarily @erratic winds') you have to understand the reservations the we have toward the kind of attitude you are displaying.

It's not a matter of what we think you may be capable of; its a matter of the manner in which you are approaching it. There is a lot to learn here on this forum, so have the humility about it to accept the information gracefully.

As I said above, it's hard to "go hard" when you can't even go.

@ skimtwashington
I thanked those people especially because they took the time to answer my question. To clarify, the question of what I am looking for, not necessarily what they think I should be looking for.

@ soliver
Ya, I saw your comments before, definitely a raw deal. And while I understand your reservations, I approached the situation in the manner I did to try and avoid kitemare stories and safety lectures. I have an understanding of what can happen, last thing I want is to be dashed against a rock or electrocuted on power lines. I've looked into the safety problems of kiting and have a general idea of how messy it can get. Hope you feel better soon!

no naysayers here...if your a man of your word you are gonna go out and do this no matter what any of us have to say
many of us are self taught and had to figure most of it out on our own...talking, watching or even better flying w/ someone more experienced helps move things along...everyone goes into this w/ some preconceived notion about the kites and flying...and if we all sat down the one thing we would agree on is we were wrong...you figure it out as you go when your alone and the first thing best to learn is live to fly another day...this is the greatest sport you can come across but at this point you dont know enough to give proper respect to just packing and unpacking the foil....lot to learn here please dont think your going out day 1 and doing figure 11's....
we are here to help and to a man wish and want the best for you........which imo..is safety first

did i mention buy a 3m fb?....it could do wonders and some day may take you to 50

The tried and true method of learning, especially on your own is to start out with a smaller kite. Trust me on this one.

If you start out with too big a kite you end up spending all your time just protecting yourself from the extreme power. You end up having to pack up on those 15kt days.

Speed = Power. You can really throw a 6 - 7 m kite around and make it fly fast so it creates more power ( in spurts ). 6 - 7m is in it's sweet spot around 15kts. You will feel MUCH more in control of a smaller kite and so will master your pilot skills a whole lot faster. You won't have to pack it up when the wind hits 15 so will get far more fly time in. As I suggested before, learning how to milk power from a smaller / faster kite will make you a far better pilot than learning how to handle overpowered situations 1st will. Don't underestimate the power you will get from a 6 - 7m . The Peak in particular delivers power very early in the 6m size. ( from what I hear )

You are already sort of skipping a step by not starting out with the standard 3m fixed bridle foil that is best for learning on your own. You will want depower for snowkiting so skipping the trainer won't be the biggest mistake you can make. Do yourself a BIG favour and don't go straight to a 9 or 10m kite to start. Get a 9 or 10 second and choose one around that size for more lift in lower winds and jumping.

A lot of the focus of this forum is about helping folks who are remote and alone find the fastest and safest way that we have collectively found. Don't get too put off by the by the strong safety attitude. Everybody means well and almost all of us have been injured at some point. The reality of this sport is, if you aren't falling, you aren't learning.

Now my safety suggestion. Pads are YOUR BEST FRIEND!!!!! Having them on gives me a bit more courage / comfort when pushing it. You are Canadian so I assume you have hockey pads. USE THEM !!!!! ( well... not the gloves ) What you are doing with the kite out there has a lot of similar ways to hurt you as hockey.

The Peak would be exceptional to learn on. Remember, power-wise it is suppose to compare to a 9-10 meter foil depower. The thing that makes it unique and much more forgiving compared to a foil is the wing deforms and flaps when depowered which takes away its speed and power very quickly when sheeted out. The low end probably compares to a 9-10m depower foil (not sure as I haven't used a depower foil). The peak 6m starts to produce enough power for traction on grass in a buggy around 12 mph but feels very comfortable with gusts above that. I assume a depower foil, while keeping its shape with bar sheeted out, will increase its speed and still generate a bit of power in a gust like my arc would.

By the way, the peak will take you up if you ask it to in decent wind. I haven't jumped that high or in the upper end of it's wind range, but it's definitely there.

Oh you know I'm gunna do it abkayak. Sooooo, i found a hookup for some affordable kites. I might get 2 or 3... yes one being a smaller one. I'm thinking of starting at 5.5/6 and getting one or two larger ones. I don't think a 5.5 would pose much danger to myself whilst learning to fly it on my feet (NOT SAYING I'M GOING TO BE RECKLESS) just saying it won't be able to drag or lift me off my feet. Provided I stay away from extreme winds. Hopefully it won't be too small for windier days once I get the feel for kiting.

Are you talking about fixed bridle kites with handles in the 3-5 meter range? Just curious because a 5.5 meter fixed bridle kite will easily lift you in 14mph+. A depower kite will ultimately be much safer to use given your location and activity. A 3 meter fixed bridle would teach you the wind window and overall kite behavior and kite management.

Edit: I still like abkayaks advice of 3 meter fixed bridle kite to be acclimated to kite and conditions.

This guy is a troll.