You may have seen my comment on Futahaguro's Synergy 15m for sale thread. I mentioned that I was a bit wary of my Synergy 15m (I've not flown my arcs much) and I tended to stick to my V13 if over 15mph inland winds. And anything over 20mph I haven't flown my arcs in yet for fear of getting spanked.

So I asked what the wind range for buggying with a 15m Synergy was. And elnica replied that the wind range of the Synergy 15m and Venom 13m were the same.

This surprised me a bit not only because of the numbers (15m vs 13m) but also because of the mass of the sail. Even in the bags the 2 kites seem quite a bit different sizewise, and laying them out the Synergy is quite a bit bigger. I know different types of kites have different characteristics but as these are sort of similar I'd expected the Synergy to have another "2m" worth of power.

As I don't have that much experience with the arcs for buggying I've not wanted to try them in over 20mph, and I've been using this page as a guide for wind range:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mx5alan/arcs/wind_range.htm

For my weight, 75kg, that page states these ranges for the 2 kites:

Water...

V13: 15 - 30mph
S15: 7 - 23mph

Land...

V13: 9 - 25mph
S15: 5 - 16mph


I know these numbers need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

What gives, are these kites that similar in terms of power and wind range, or does the Venom have a higher top end as the numbers from that calculator would suggest?

Also please note that it's a Venom I NOT the mkII!

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr

......And elnica replied that the wind range of the Synergy 15m and Venom 13m were the same. This surprised me a bit not only because of the numbers (15m vs 13m) but also because of the mass of the sail. Even in the bags the 2 kites seem quite a bit different sizewise, and laying them out the Synergy is quite a bit bigger. I know different types of kites have different characteristics but as these are sort of similar I'd expected the Synergy to have another "2m" worth of power. ... ... What gives, are these kites that similar in terms of power and wind range, or does the Venom have a higher top end as the numbers from that calculator would suggest?

Here's a quote from another thread with explanation

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

.....The reason the Venom 13m size matches power with 15m arcs that came after it is that when the Venoms were being made, their size was measured with the kite inflated. Subsequent arcs were measured flat with no inflation, which increases the measurable area of the kite, but is not as representative of the real size when comparing to older arcs.

I like the explanation, just the portion "measured with the kite inflated" sounds they had a guy helping kite designers who knew to measure "while erected". In this case, completely reverse effect.

You can easily lay out both kites flat and see if their size and area match. Let us know...

Sorry I skipped the Venoms but I think there is near complete overlap ?

I can work a ride out of my 15 Syn in 5kts winds on super smooth surfaces like hard pack snow or beach but have better choices in my quiver. It doesn't start coming into it's zone until about 10kts. I am comfortable with it into the low 20's on land. Others with more skill will fly it into the high 20's.

It probably isn't fare to say without experience but if I was to keep 1 of the 2 it would be the Synergy.

I NEED a larger kite for our typical low winds. The 19m SA or 18m Phantom come out 1st. For your quiver I see a 12m Peak having a spot as your low wind engine if you are looking to sell an arc to fund a kite.

Thanks for the input guys.

Blade - yeah I do fancy a larger Peak as I've been having some great fun with the 6m. I've seen all that tip collapse stuff about the 12m which is putting me off at the moment. Would probably snap up a 9m Peak I if a used one came up here in the UK though!

AR is also higher on the syn giving it less power per sq meter. Ive never flown a venom but I was told the v2 13m has the same range as the syn 15 I had. The wind here is too gusty for arcs in general. They tended to jelly fish down in the lulls and then shoot me forward as the gust hit sending the arc though the powerzone to autozenith. Much more of a problem on water or when launching/landing. On land you can usually help it keep it's shape by walking backwards to regain tension in the lines. Almost ate a bench and some posts launching / getting to the water. They are good gust munchers for normal winds but not for super gusty winds. LEIs may hindenburg once in a while but they dont loose their shape or autozenith. The flysurfers dont loose their shape as long as you keep it away from the edge of the window when stopped (pull in the bar), their complex bridle helps maintain shape.

Quote: Originally posted by elnica

...LEIs may hindenburg once in a while but they dont loose their shape..

I've been saying exactly these words since my "lull->collapse_drifting_into_power_zone->gust->15_yards_body_drag_on_crappy_beach_and_concrete_path" years ago

Quote: Originally posted by elnica

...The flysurfers dont loose their shape as long as you keep it away from the edge of the window when stopped (pull in the bar), their complex bridle helps maintain shape.

Large ones keep the shape and drift back gently....the 8m Pulse2 from above episode obviously didn't

Quote: Originally posted by grigorib

Quote: Originally posted by robinsonpr   ......And elnica replied that the wind range of the Synergy 15m and Venom 13m were the same. This surprised me a bit not only because of the numbers (15m vs 13m) but also because of the mass of the sail. Even in the bags the 2 kites seem quite a bit different sizewise, and laying them out the Synergy is quite a bit bigger. I know different types of kites have different characteristics but as these are sort of similar I'd expected the Synergy to have another "2m" worth of power. ... ... What gives, are these kites that similar in terms of power and wind range, or does the Venom have a higher top end as the numbers from that calculator would suggest?[/rquote] Here's a quote from another thread with explanation Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob   .....The reason the Venom 13m size matches power with 15m arcs that came after it is that when the Venoms were being made, their size was measured with the kite inflated. Subsequent arcs were measured flat with no inflation, which increases the measurable area of the kite, but is not as representative of the real size when comparing to older arcs.[/rquote] I like the explanation, just the portion "measured with the kite inflated" sounds they had a guy helping kite designers who knew to measure "while erected". In this case, completely reverse effect. You can easily lay out both kites flat and see if their size and area match. Let us know... types of kites have different characteristics but as these are sort of similar I'd expected the Synergy to have another "2m" worth of power. ... ... What gives, are these kites that similar in terms of power and wind range, or does the Venom have a higher top end as the numbers from that calculator would suggest? types of kites have different characteristics but as these are sort of similar I'd expected the Synergy to have another "2m" worth of power. ... ... What gives, are these kites that similar in terms of power and wind range, or does the Venom have a higher top end as the numbers from that calculator would suggest?

Despite not ever owning a venom, it's my opinion a 13m venom corresponds to a modern 12m. I think the measurement difference is simply 1m, and not in favor of the venom. I can only assume I'm wrong on this as everyone says the opposite. Prove me wrong! Pics! This is in line with the scorpions and phantom 1's. I see no reason to think the venom (size wise) is different.

That doesn't mean of course that the venom doesn't have characteristics that would let it compete with / be considered with a bigger arc. I suspect people make the claim because the venom has / had more grunt than most older arcs, given the lower AR.

Don't know about the sizes, but I'll second what elnica says about how arcs handle inland wind in our area. The lulls kill them. You could probably overcome that with enough skill and practice, but I'd rather be riding.

This topic bring back memories. I liked the V13 better than the 15 Syn. I was expecting the Syn to be better in lower wind. I found the two probably had the same wind range but I sold the Syn and kept flying the V.
Here is an old topic with a photo of both.
Pl Arcs

Thanks AD72, that was an interesting read!

In particular you wrote this:

Quote:

Of note the projected area of the 13 Venom is 9.1 ar 5 and the 15 Synergy is 9.2 ar 4.9. You can see in the photo above they are very similar in size which is not what you would expect if you were to just go by the advertised sq meter size.

I guess that answers my original question! Doh, looks like I got some redundancy!!

for one kite, with the least parts, the most power/size, the lowest maintenance and versatility.

i have had several 1000's of hours on the water with VI/VII/phantom/charger/tubes of every make and brand.

for its age Venom series is really pinnacle of simplicity and performance. its basically a closed cell version of a c-kite.

they are considered hi wind kites , and i have taken that to test numerous times.

every Venom i have has been out in 30 knts V10-V16 and as hi as 50.

they are gentle and furiously powerful. they have a softer feel than tubes , but after 20mph they turn rock hard and can boost and loop with the best.

a few qualifiers here. time and experience to make the magic happen, alot has to do with the bar pressure, its high! so decent grip strength is a definite huddle. ..but the pressure is a direct connection/feel to the wind and kite... and thats what makes it a great kite. V13 I /II (V10 for the lighter guys) prolly on of the best kite ever made with a truly unique design and a mountain range of performance .

one of the few kites that just won't go away!

I've had the V13 from new and it's still in practically new condition, having not been flown much. I'm slowly becoming a reasonable pilot, maybe I shouldn't be so concerned about getting them out in slightly higher winds up to 25 maybe...