Don't know when or how it got there, but there is a knot in one of my brake lines on my 3.6 beamer. Don't know if its a loop (bite?) tightened up or I actually managed to put an overhand knot in it, but its really tight. It's about 15 feet (5m) from the handle.
So do I try and pick it out with a needle, leave it alone, or shorten everything and reknot and sheath?
Or do I wait for it to break and deal with a controlled one brake spinning emergency landing?
colin

Depending on how tight it is, personally, I'd to take it out with a few needles and some patience. A magnifying glass should allow you to see all the details of the knot. Just don't use so much force on the needles that you pick or break the individual threads and weaken the line.

Ok.
Thank God for dollar store +2.5 readers, cuz my arms aren't that long.
I'll give it a whirl.
The line strength is in the core, and the outer layer is just for protection?

It is both. Just be careful and work the knot out. Don't force it and do take your time.

Colin - good thread post!

I've got exactly the same issue with a used FS Peak2 I picked up a couple of months ago. A simple overhand knot just whistling away (metaphorically) about half way up to the kite, mine being on a power line. I haven't examined it closely but since it is a power line I'm sure it is darn tight. I feel it often times when I wrap up my lines on the bar after a session. It bugs me the way a scab does, knowing I shouldn't scratch on it!

Riffclown - thanks for your thoughts. Others out there? Work to unknot of leave the scab alone? :dunno:

Definitely don't let that line break under stress. It's not as bad as a power line break but in any case, the sudden break can over stress other attachment points and rip bridle points out of the sail. This can lead to repairs that cost more than a line set.

so yeah, start with large needles as fids, or better yet, fine scratch-awls from a hardware store; they will be easier to hold and maneuver. Your lines don't have separate outer sheaths- no stock foils do. (Q-power line is the only line that does that I know of). So every fiber counts.

Shortening and resheaving is next or...

Forgive the shameless plug, but I'll soon be post for sale some new name brand quad line sets at reasonable prices.

Good luck with the knot!

Angus,
I almost posted on the dual line sets post to ask if I could cobble together a quad out of what was there...
colin

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Riffclown - thanks for your thoughts. Others out there? Work to unknot of leave the scab alone? :dunno:

"Knots weaken the rope in which they are made. When knotted rope is strained to its breaking point, it almost always fails at the knot or close to it, unless it is defective or damaged elsewhere. The bending, crushing, and chafing forces that hold a knot in place also unevenly stress rope fibers and ultimately lead to a reduction in strength. The exact mechanisms that cause the weakening and failure are complex and are the subject of continued study."

In addition to weakening at the knot, if you fly with the lines crosses from a loop or more, the knot the the powerline will serve as a point of friction that saws against the other lines.

Dyneema has a relatively low melting point.

If you have never experienced the joy of having a dyneema line (on it's maiden flight) melted by a 8 year old flying his single line kite on dacron line.... it's almost enough to bring tears to your eyes.... or at least colorful language to your lips.

Needles are easy to use because they're readily found at hand. However, a set of ball burnishers (especially if it includes finer ones), can often do the work without damaging the individual strands because at the name implies it terminates with a ball.



ATB,
Sam

Sam - as always, thanks for your sage council. I'd never heard of ball burnishers before but they look ideal for the cause being raised by Colin in this thread.

I'm particularly pleased that you provided a picture of these devices. Upon original reading I had first thought by their name that they were something my wife would want around the house to "keep the peace".

Sam, those ball burnishers were a great idea. And I thought that you would have suggested a cat.

I actually saw where those were made on vacation last year. We went through a little town called ballsakia

I thought I have heard(on here?) that a knot will weaken that line's breaking strength to about half it's rating....? If true that's real bad..

Good find Sam.

Get out that knot!

Quote: Originally posted by acampbell

Sam, those ball burnishers were a great idea. And I thought that you would have suggested a cat.

Only if you never want to use the line for flying again.

Hardest knot I ever had to get out was in 30# Spectra line (mosquito floss used for flying a Prism 3D) with two cats wanting to help every step of the way.

ATB,
Sam

Quote: Originally posted by skimtwashington

I thought I have heard(on here?) that a knot will weaken that line's breaking strength to about half it's rating....? If true that's real bad..

Yes, generally an overhand knot has an efficiency of 50%, meaning it loses 50%!of strength, and a figure eight knot is 83% efficient. But in one study, even a figure eight knot drops to 53% efficiency in dyneema. But I just revisited that paper and it has been pulled for review (Caves.org). Either way, knots are bad.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

a little town called ballsakia

Now that's funny Sean.

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

I'm particularly pleased that you provided a picture of these devices. Upon original reading I had first thought by their name that they were something my wife would want around the house to "keep the peace".

I got a good laugh from this too. You started it. Ballsakia is real. It's just south of weinerville. Ok, goodnight. :D

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Ballsakia is real. It's just south of weinerville.

It's said that on a clear cold night that you can see a certain planet in the heavens from there.

ENOUGH ! :piggy:

just north of Calgary.
I wish I was making this up.
Me and my boys howled as we drove through. The better half wasn't nearly as amused...

O Canada!

Colin - man, was your perfectly fine thread ever hijacked! My bad. Now, back to your regularly scheduled program (please)!

Ok, I know sounds silly but, CHEW ON IT..not too hard...but enough to work on it.....the saliva and mechanical process will loosen the knot...with no damage..

OK!
I can not be held responsible for deviant hijacks in thread with a dangling lead in like this one. Ha!
I will simply say thank you for your soggy suggestion, (and yes I will try it when I get the lines out next) and leave the perverted innuendo to other members.:saint::saint::saint:

On the subject of line problems...It is also good to know how to splice a line in case of break or just a bad fray.

You will need extra length of similar line, fid or thin gauge wire, and how-to chart.

Much cheaper than buying new line set or single line(no one sells singles)...

So is the knot not naught now, or still a Knot?

Still a knot. No wind this weekend, and there is nothing that bothers me more than bringing out a kite and not flying it; maybe a little like a samurai sword needing blood if it is unsheathed:karate:

Use a hammer on the knot and tap it out. I did it and it works:

http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2382253

KY Jelly?

+1 for the hammer technique when all else fails.

I left a knot in my Beamer trailing line for 2 years without a problem. It was certainly weakened to some amount but not enough to break with me, 175# dude bugging around in ridiculous winds. As far as I know, that knot's still in there.

I'm not condoning such irresponsible behavior, I'm just saying that, by the time I noticed it, it was basically a diamond, so I left it alone and it worked out.

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Colin - good thread post! I've got exactly the same issue with a used FS Peak2 I picked up a couple of months ago. A simple overhand knot just whistling away (metaphorically) about half way up to the kite, mine being on a power line. I haven't examined it closely but since it is a power line I'm sure it is darn tight. I feel it often times when I wrap up my lines on the bar after a session. It bugs me the way a scab does, knowing I shouldn't scratch on it!

Heya Windstruck. I sold you that bad boy, and I'm pretty certain there wasn't an extra knot in those lines (right after I condemn myself by talking about my Beamer knot. Doh! ) Are you talking about the special "Flysurfer" knot that they use to keep the bar from flying all the way to the lines when you pop the safety? It always pissed me off that they used a knot instead of something more responsible like a stopper. Anyway, let me know. I'd hate to have sold you a borked piece of equipment.

I store my kites in the back seat of my truck in a total mess with little regard, but there is no way I would tolerate a knot in either my front or back lines. That's where I draw the line. They must be sorted. :D