I just took delivery on a flysurfer peak 2 in the 4m size, I heard about the single skin technology and wanted to try it out and know that flysurfer makes very good quality kites. Let me begin by saying I have been flying power kites for over 10 years and have owned flown everything from leis, to foils to arcs. I took the kite out for a spin the other day and let me say I was not impressed at all . The kite has several issues and the only thing that really impressed me was the depower range and the bar. the almost 100% depower was an excellent feature but Some of the issues I noticed were really annoying . Starting with the on and off power delivery of the kite , it was not very smooth in its power delivery its was either on or flappy wings and not much power, I know the kite depowers by taking tension of the lines hence the flappy ears but this can be annoying they need to stick to 1 pulley system for this kite, 2) the kite looses power threw turns and loops 3) chicken loop stick is very hard and cumbersome to use, why didn't they just keep the soft rubber type material I had a hard time getting it in and out of the spreader bar,4 ) the fifth line safety line felt very tight when the kite was in flight I know they didn't want to make it loose so as to flap around but its too tight and I believe affected the flying of the kite and does the kite really need that many bridle lines to fly? I think not. They claimed that the kites power was 2 sizes more powerfull than an equivalent size well I didn't really think so may be 1 size up, I also flew a friends 6m briefly about a month ago so I know the issues are universal. While I really want to love the kite and embrace the new technology flysurfer needs to go back to the drawing board on this one. :o

@gemini - sorry this has been an underwhelming experience. You have worlds more experience with other DP kites that I simply don't and the P2s are the only DPs I've ever flown. I've heard the 4m P2 referred to as a "wasp on a string". I have found that my 6m is more on/off as you describe than my 12m. Each time I fly it I get better and better with it, sort of smoothing out its power curve. I suspect th 4m magnifies that effect. So... Maybe some more time with it?

About the non flexing donkey stick. It is attached via an elastic cord. To engage and disengage you first need to pull it out a little bit. That confused me at first too.

I hope it gets better for you.

I would like to compare p1 and p2 to see the differences in flight. I've owned an arc previously so that's what I'm comparing to depower wise. Being single skin, it loses its shape without active piloting. Much more than ram air or arc that hold a specific shape. This is both a positive and a negative. The positive is near 100% depower in crappy wind which is what makes it so great for those situations. The negatives are less smoothness in flight and turning. I've spent many hours under mine and it smoothes out with more experience. It needs to be flown like a peak and peak only. A different set of muscle memory needed for sure. If always in clean wind than negatives might out way positives. Still not sure if p2 is par with p1 until I fly one but p1 is an excellent kite with a much simpler bar which I view as positive control and safety wise but negative as far as the actual bar itself is concerned. Larger hole for depow line on p2. I could care less about swivel. I do a counter loop when changing directions.

They are very affordable comparably too. You don't buy a very sensible sedan and expect it to perform like a sports car. That's kind of how I view this kite. Not saying that's what you thought.

Unfortunately, like others have said, they have yet to come out with the perfect kite that suit everyone's tastes.

Gemini - in full recognition that you are an experienced kite flyer, a little more detail would be useful about your flying experience. For starters, what was the range of wind speeds you were flying the 4m P2 in? Second, were you flying static or getting pulled around in a buggy, on a board, etc. Was the wind clean or janky?

With a fair amount of experience now under my belt with both a 12m and 6m P2 I have a couple of observations. Others may differ slightly or strongly with my impressions. For starters, while these kites will launch in very little wind due to their relative lightness, flying at all and flying well with strong traction are different things. I find in general that these kites fly at their best when you can maintain strong tension on the lines at all time. The more fluctuating the load on the lines the worse the kite flies (tip tuck, etc.). I've also found that while the DP aspect of the kites allow for buggying under widely varying wind condition, each kite size still has wind ranges where the kites seem to fly best, and certainly feel the least nerve racking (in terms of being overpowered). I've never used the 4m P2, but here are my (very rough) ideas of ideal wind ranges for each P2 kite size for buggying purposes:

12m: 4-10+ mph
9m: 10-15+ mph
6m: 15-20+
4m: 20-? (what ever you dare go out in)

DP gives you a wide range outside of these estimates. I've flown my 12m in 15-20 mph winds but it's nerve racking.

I really don't think P2s fly static very well. Particularly when flown near the lower range of winds and when taken out to edge of the wind window. IMHO, these kites really need to be moving to be working. So, again IMHO, I wouldn't expect very good performance out of a 4m P2 unless I was moving (buggy, etc.) AND the wind was over 20 mph.

For example, my 6m P2 flew the best I'd ever seen it today. It was the strongest wind I'd had it in to date, with base winds around 15 mph and gusts into the low 20s. I was able to really smooth her out in Park n Ride mode. In 10-15 mph winds as I'd flown with her before, I could keep moving in the buggy but had to work the crap out of the kite and bar to maintain power. Conditions I'd love to have the 9m for, but I haven't gotten it yet (comes next week). The range of these kites are such that you can fly the ideal 9m wind with either the 6m or 12m but you'll be working like hell with the 6 and holding on in a bit of a cold sweat with the 12.

Out of curiosity, did you buy the 4m P2 as a high speed engine? Chris Krug reviews this kite under some pretty wicked conditions here: http://www.hardwaterkiter.com/kite-and-gear-reviews/2015-ozo...

Dang Steve you just made me want a 9 meter even more. I've been really wanting a 9 meter lately. I've kind of written off my really light wind days as days I should be doing other stuff because it's just too frustrating but I could use the extra boost of a 9m in the 10-15 stuff.

You bet your sweet bippie Sean you want a 9m Peak. Once you get that under your belt and get used to spreading your wind range down to 10-15 mph you'll start drooling for a "session saver", the veritable 12m P2, guaranteed to bring a smile to your face in the buggy down to 5 mph! Who needs to stop at 10-15 when you can ALSO buggy in 5-10? :evil:

what was application for a 4m? wind speed data?

I'm a landboarder and I fly mostly on asphalt. The 4m peak 2 kite was flown in winds of about 12mph with gusts to about 20mph . I also forgot to mention the bar pressure is a tad bit on the heavy side. The single skin kite technology while unique I think needs some tweaks to smoothen it out. I think they will have to try some new ideas to get it to fly better. may be adding battens to the trailing edge to stop the flapping and using a 1 pulley system instead of 2 to give the kite a more direct feel and smoothen out the off and on power delivery. with tht being said I had a good session with the kite but I definitely wont recommend this kite to a beginner but to a more an experienced kiter..

Most certainly not a beginner kite! Once the wind gets up I suspect the 4m really zips around. That is certainly what I've been told. I am getting better at managing the 6m performance wise. The 12m, while fantastic for sheer grunt on a low-wind day turns very slowly. I'm hopeful the 9m hits the sweet spot for turning speed, control, and level of grunt on average wind days. Chris Krug from Hardwater has said as much and he has more experience with these, both personally and as an instructor, than likely anybody you will run into.

Now that you've clarified the landboard on asphalt specs I can see why you went this way. I've not done that but suspect it is tricky to find a kite with the right balance in such setting. Sean (SSAYRE) has posted some really spectacular footage of him landboarding on asphalt holding his 6m P1.

Thanks Steve, spectacular is probably an overstatement but I do love blacktop. Glad to hear of another asphalt surfer Gemini. Another fun thing to try is the peak on handles. Not saying it's better but it is fun. I have really enjoyed my peak handle seasons. Hooked in, unhooked, handles, short lines, bar, the peak doesn't care, it likes all of the above.

Interesting...
I've kept my mouth shut but now that this has been brought up by gemini I'll add my two cents. I have only tried the 9m Peak 2 once but frankly, I think that was enough for me to understand the unpopularity of the Peak among local snowkiters and be baffled about the popularity of the Peak among pkf members.
Now, maybe the Peak would have benefited from bridle adjustments, battens, reinforcement, etc. but I took it as it comes out of the bag, as Flysurfer supposes it to fly.

What I found while unpacking it was:

-a extremely lightweight kite which is quick to put up and pack down
-a whole lot of bridle lines
-worn out fabric

In the air the air the kite was easy to fly and it did indeed dump power almost 100%. However, the usable depower range wasn't all that large or linear at all and once you went past a certain point, the kite simply started to stall and flutter. Somehow this reminded me of a poor early SLE kite. While flapping is a extremely effective way to dump power, it really kills the performance of the kite. And as I could see from the fabric, it would soon enough literally kill the kite as well. This was the main problem for me with the kite and while I could list a dozen other things I disliked about how it flew and why I would prefer a similarly priced Access or Apex over it, I think I'll just shut up and let you guys enjoy your Peaks. After all everyone has different tastes and if the you think the Peak is the right kite for you, then why not? But make sure to try some more traditional depower kites too, you may be pleasantly surprised.

Interesting thread. I think its premature to state that a kite, any kite, is unsuitable for use after just a few hours experience with it. The Peaks are odd kites. And as I've said before, regardless of how much kiting experience you've had there is a little learning curve with the Peak.

This isn't a new conversation. Take the word "Peak" and replace it with "Arc" and the thread is the same as many others written by people who tried arcs for the first time.

Granted the Peak is not perfect and not perfect for everyone. But it is very good at what its designed for and it has an amazing performance envelope. Because an individual is unable or unwilling to pilot the kite to its fullest potential does not mean the kite is flawed. The Peak can compete with anything out there. But it comes down to pilot ability as much as the kite.

In terms of the perspective of depower range, it sounds to me that people aren't using the full power of the kite and thus not seeing the broad spectrum of power/depower it has to offer. I agree the modulation of power for these kites can be hard to get a feel for but it is there if you take the time to learn it.

As far as beginners go, the Peak is perfectly suitable for beginner use. We use it to teach on light wind days and it is a total day saver. In winds that would require a large Chrono, Matrixx 2 or Lotus we can put a raw beginner on the Peak 9 or 12 and not worry about potential issues. The nice thing about Peaks with beginners is that beginners don't come with the experience of flying other foils. They have not expectations or habits that interfer with getting used to the Peak.

In terms of flight quality. A kite like the Ozone Access is vastly nicer to fly in some ways. Its more traditional and extremely well designed. The Peak has better wind range and more depower. Faster turn rate as well. But it has higher bar pressure, bar vibration at depower and requires active gust handling. The Access is smoother, park and ride, has a great depower and safety system and costs a few hundred more.

As with any kite, it comes down to what you want, need and can afford. The Peaks offer a lot of performance in a relatively affordable package and are a kite that allow people to get into the sport with relative safety and without breaking the bank. Is it perfect? No. No kite is. Thats why kites change and get redesigned each year.

But ready for "prime time"? Absolutely. The year the Peak 1 came out it was my go to kite. Put about 1800 miles on the Peak that year. Last year the Peak 2, apart from the issues with the initial batch that was released, was also a big hit with our students and clients. We use it as our primary touring kite and we never had an issue during a single guide on that kite last season.

Like all kites it will evolve and change. But for a kite still in its infancy, its really an amazing bit of ripstop IMO and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes in the next few years.

@UnknownAX - I for one take your points very well. I am one of those Peak disciples on PKF but I certainly don't sit blindly ignoring their short comings. I previously owned a couple of PL Lynx DP kits, and like you were saying, found their bridle system FAR superior to the P2s. The bridles on P2s can be a real pain in the seat meat at times. Second, I fully get what you mean by the non-linearity of the power curve as well.

In kiting, as in the rest of life, we live with a seemingly endless series of trade offs. Speaking only for myself, the single largest advantage of Peaks (and Born-Kite Stars for which I am also a fan) is how small they pack up as single-skin kites. I am easily able to get 8 Stars with three bars in a single PL Lynx backpack and 3 Peak-2s with their bars in a second Lynx backpack. For my style of kiting and transporting kites I absolutely love this uncontested advantage of the single-skin class of kites.

The second thing I like (particularly with my 12m P2) is the ability of the kite to launch easily in light surface winds. I used to stand and stand and stand waiting for enough wind to come along to launch my 9m Lynx while my 12m P2 would launch with no problem and then once in the air have enough power to motor me around in my buggy on a grass field. As such, you'll see me on PKF referring to my 12m P2 as my "session saver". I never tried this with the 11m Lynx but I suspect it suffered from the same problem, viz., too much total kite weight for launching in very light surface winds.

I'm with you UnknownAX - there are a great number of fantastic kites out there with two skins, no doubt about it.

Unknownax, does that mean you have a peak you would part with?

from the wind speed alone id say, kite was probably hungry for wind. a solid 20 and there would be a different story i think. a powered session reveals the self ready traits , light wind can be tedious. on a strange bird i would certainly want more time. i say give it another go when the breeze is heavier. but solid 20+ on longboard that could uncomfortable quick ! mountain top 30 may be best spot ! be careful.

ssayre: No, I don't have a Peak (or any other kite) to part with.:D It was a fellow snowkiter's Peak that I tried.

I was quite excited about the Peak too and considered adding one to my quiver but when I demoed it I realized it just wasn't the kind of kite I was looking for at all. It was very different indeed and I'm sure I could've gotten more out of it with time but it just didn't fit my quiver or needs. Too different. It'll be hard enough for me to accept the flying characteristics of my Frenzy (tractor) next winter after spending the whole summer with my new LEI (sports car).:D

The packed-down size of the Peaks is definitely a big plus if you travel with your kites. My Frenzy has seen it's bag only once or twice, usually I just fold it into a neat 1x1m square and throw it in the garage. The next session I tuck it under my arm and ski down the front yard.:D

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

from the wind speed alone id say, kite was probably hungry for wind. a solid 20 and there would be a different story i think. a powered session reveals the self ready traits , light wind can be tedious. on a strange bird i would certainly want more time. i say give it another go when the breeze is heavier. but solid 20+ on longboard that could uncomfortable quick ! mountain top 30 may be best spot ! be careful.

Believe me I was perfectly powered in the gusts. I really wanted to like the kite but it has a lot of issues for me as an experienced kiter. may be the bigger sizes like the 9 and 12 may appear to perform better as they are much slower and are flown in light winds mostly. But the issues i stated should be apparent in all the sizes when powered up. I don't think its an issue of whether the kite style is different or not the kite has alot of negatives and that's just it, the only positive is the depower and small packdown but performance wise the kite is off my list of kites I would like to purchase in the future . A good kite should pack maximum power for its size, depower nicely, have a little lift but not too much and behave well at the edge of the window and in gusts in my opinion.

maybe give it a few more times. it took awhile before I was getting the most out of mine. Only reason I suggest that is you already own it so you might as well explore a little further

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

They are very affordable comparably too. You don't buy a very sensible sedan and expect it to perform like a sports car. That's kind of how I view this kite. Not saying that's what you thought. Unfortunately, like others have said, they have yet to come out with the perfect kite that suit everyone's tastes.

oh ure so wrong my friend the perfect kite- have u flown the 2015 ozone access, I think its very close to the perfect kite ,,,

Hopefully some day. Admittedly my perspective is very narrow having not flown dp foils, lei, or closed cell foil. If your keeping track, that only leaves peak and arc that I've flown. I've got a ways to go yet.

of all the units i have flown, FS are always the most finicky for sure. none fit me out of the gate. after early distaste for all, with time they all came around and it was me not the kite. definitely had to work through the tuning trim and settings stuff. ..like the tip tuck thing on P4 at first it happened all the time , i hated it , now its rare if at all. speed 3 took about 10 hours really to get bar feel to what i felt was sharp and useful.

maybe pulse 2 on the water was ok straight away, but still had the FS "pay attention " feel that faded by 3rd session

anyway sorry it did not match up for you.

Interesting thread!

I must say I've never noticed issues with my 6m Peak 1, owned from new since they came out and I find it to be a fantastic kite. I've used it in winds from 10mph up to early 20s. It's always been well behaved. I did notice some finickiness with my new 12m Peak 2, but that was in very light wind, it's been great when properly powered in a solid 6mph+.

I do have a 2015 Access, the 6m size, as my high wind buggy kite. I only had the opportunity to fly it once so far. I had 20mph winds gusting to 25mph, I thought it would be too much for the 6m Peak. The Access was lovely. Yes smoother than the Peak, extremely well behaved, very safe, very stable, very predictable. But, maybe that size needs a touch more wind to shine, as it felt a tad underpowered, dare I say boring? I packed it up and got the 6m Peak out on that session, even though FS quote a max wind speed of 20mph. The Peak was borderline overpowered, especially in the gusts, but easily handled with the PeaS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s depower. Man, what fun!

I don't agree with the on/off power delivery description of the Peak. I've always found it progressive enough particularly when locked in park n ride mode with some good apparent wind. Pulling the bar/letting it out a little is like a throttle.

I went 6m Access rather than 4m Peak as my high winder as I felt the 4m Peak would be very fast in the sky and easy to get into trouble with the super quick turning speed of a small kite in nuking winds.

I do agree with the power-to-size claims of the Peak compared with a traditional foil. Having flown the 6m Access back to back with the 6m Peak in the same wind the Peak had bucketloads more power than the Access for the same square meterage. I'd guess the 6m Peak is comparable to the 8m Access powerwise.

But of course they are different, not everyone's cup of tea. And no kite is perfect. Funnily enough I also fly arcs which have also been mentioned in this thread. They are my favourite kite of all. The only reason the Peak took over as my most used kite is the ease of setup and launch. Arcs are a faff to get in the air when compared with the Peak or an open cell foil, but still my most favourite kite to fly once in the air. Stable, gust munching, huge depower, huge wind range, and they have the WTF factor :D ("WTF is that flying mattress dude!?!?")

Sean - too funny! I was going to ask him too if he wanted to sell. :D

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

of all the units i have flown, FS are always the most finicky for sure. none fit me out of the gate.

This was my experience as well. I remember buying my Pulse 2 and wanting to love the kite. The build quality wasfantastic. The material was top notch. It looked great. But that kite had a constant tendency to backstall and then explode to the zenith from the center of the window and it held so much power on the ground it was unbearable in its upper limit. Its like the kite was designed to kill you out of the box unless you really wanted to take the time to figure out WAC lines and the benefit of shortening a line 2cm here, 3 cms there... Oh, and then don't forget to restretch the mixer every so often or just replace the mixer line. Oh, and don't forget the wingtip lines... those too shrink and need replacing, restretching, adjusting.

I know some like FS because they are so tweakable but I'd prefer a company (like ozone for example) releases the kite as its designed to fly in what they consider to be its perfected state. I'm not interested in buying a kite that I need to fine tune. I don't drive my new car off the lot and straight to the mechanic for an overhaul. I don't want to do that with my kites either.

i really wish someone hated their p1 9m right now. :D

handling transition across kite styles and designs is there for sure. we all gotta find what we like.

pulse 2 is a mad unit at the upper end.

Quote: Originally posted by gemini6kl

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre   They are very affordable comparably too. You don't buy a very sensible sedan and expect it to perform like a sports car. That's kind of how I view this kite. Not saying that's what you thought. Unfortunately, like others have said, they have yet to come out with the perfect kite that suit everyone's tastes. oh ure so wrong my friend the perfect kite- have u flown the 2015 ozone access, I think its very close to the perfect kite ,,,

You have an interesting idea of perfection. But it is telling of your tastes.

Perfect? No. Awesome and unmatched at doing what it's designed to do? Yes. The Access is a phenomenal kite. It is why we use them as our primary teaching kites. For teaching the 4m does in high winds what the PK2 does for us in light winds. Saves the day.

But it is also a primo, nice, all round flyer.

And yes, I've flown it once or twice.

When the arcs first came out they were revolutionary and brought good things to the kite world I owned a few and the things I liked liked were that they 1) were very stable 2) had very good upwind performance 3) very good lift and the depower was good for its time . The only thing I didn't like was the power per size versus a foil where a 13m arc was like a 8 or 9m foil and the flying mattress jokes, LOL . I'm a fan of new technology and progress for the sport but if a new design dosent improve on what we aready have I don't see the benefit . I watched the progression of the leis from C kite to bow to sle and was very impressed. with that being said have anyone flow the new HQ montanas the 10M is a serious low wind machine and the lift is very nice. Would love to get my hands on a 12m .

question for gemini and unknownax and anyone else. Do you guys fly inland or coastal? also, what would you recommend for light to moderate wind and good gust/lull handling that's not a peak. I would like another depower for those variable 10ish mph days. I'm short on cash for a new p2 9m. Is there used alternatives under $500 that I should be considering? 13m lei maybe? Or foil possibly? maybe i'm looking over some good alternatives and don't know it. My fear with foils are bow tie when I hit a lull. Lei might be the most affordable used.