Pablo placed this diagram and info on a crossover bar mod for brake steering on big larger fixed-bridle foils with bars. The topic is worth it's own thread.

Here's more info he e-mailed to me:

"Black line is the bar

Blue lines are the main power leaders coming off the bar ends, should be
around 1/2m long

Red line is tied to the right power line leader, then runs through a pulley
on the left side of the bar, then goes up and becomes the left brake line
leader.

Yellow line is tied to the left power line leader, then runs through a
pulley on the right side of the bar, then goes up and becomes the right
brake line leader.

Green line, tie a line from the end of one brake line leader to the other,
make sure it has at least 4-6 inches of slack so when you turn the bar it
doesn't get pulled tight. Have a pulley on this line that can travel from
one brake line to the other on this new line you've attached. from the
pulley put another line that goes through the centre of the bar to your
safety.

It'll take a bit of trial and error to get it set up just perfect, but once
you do it's well worth it. I've had every single person who's tried my 9m
Buster on this setup say that it's the best bar setup they've ever tried.

I like it so that when you're at neutural with the bar there's just a bit of
slack on the brake lines, this will let you do some smaller turns to adjust
the angle of the kite when on long runs without applying the brakes. I end
up with about 2" of travel at the bar ends before the brakes start kicking
in. Then when you crank hard on the bar, say turning left, the right power
line goes out, this pulls in on the left brake line, you're also pulling in
on the left pulley as well, this gives you somewhere between 2-3 times the
brake travel, so for every 1" of power line pulled in on the left, you get
2-3 " of brake line pulled in on the left. The slack on the cross over line
on the safety is important as well, if this is tight it'll affect the kite
handling, Trial and error here, make one up and adjust it until it's just
long enough to allow full turning without getting pulled tight. The pulley
is key here as well, without the pulley on the safety line the safety will
end up pulling the brake on one side when turning tight.


The simple version I use on smaller kites that don't need a lot of brake in
the turns is simply extending the power line leaders, then putting a single
brake line through the bar, putting a pulley on the end of the safety line,
then making up a short leader that hooks up to one brake line, through the
pulley, then back to the other brake line. This will allow full turning
without having one brake line pulled tight while still giving you effective
brakes/safety."


krumly

Lovely wife hosted the pic online

The set-up is working well for me on my 7m Bullet. At 1st I didn't feel it was as responsive but now I'm more familiar with the bar that has improved as well. I think the X over bar will stay on this kite!
I find it of GREAT value to have an old school static loop ( with Q.R. ) on my bar. I can hook in and still pull the bar enough to take full advantage of the X over brake. A nice relaxing feel.
I haven't tried the set-up on my smaller kites yet. I know when I started off with my bullet on a standard 4 line it was a poor choice. I intend to try the new bar on the 4.5. If we ever get enough wind to pull it out again. Seems it's been a while !
My fault, for falling in love with a 3m Brooza.

a lot easier to set up a handle pulley system. This does work but does take a little fine tuning.
Really does make a difference on anything above 5m.
Nice post Pablo

Hey Pablo or Snowbird, would you post a pic of crossover setup please? I am about to try it and want to see what size pulleys and line you are using, how you mounted it (for curiousity sake), and what size your hook-in loop is. ANy pics posted is appreciated.

And while we are at it, would mind throwing your handle crossover setup wolf?

Here you go.

Fantastic! I always have been a visual person. Thanks alot. Will let you know how it works out for me

I flew my PL Reactor 4.9 on a rig like this. Really works well.

Big mistake I made was using too heavy a line. I used sheathed spectra dingy line from the local West marine. The brake coss-overs sagged a bit under their own weight, making them clumsy and the knots were so big they could snag on each other when the rig moved.

When I re-do it with some smaller leader line, I know it will be a big improvement. Then I'll hhook in with the bug.

I used a Flexifoil Extrem bar and used the existing brake line leaders & pulley. I shortened the brake leaders with a couple of figure-eight knots.

Small Ronstan pulleys from West Marine worked well.

not to poo-poo the ideas brought forth here, .....but, if the point of flying a fixed bridle kite off a bar is to simulate a sheeting system, then no bar will work. fixed bridle kites can not change their angle of attack, thats why they are not sheetable / depowerable as fixed. also, thats a big reason why fixed bridle kites drop you like a rock when jumping, no AOA adjustment.

that being said, if the point is to improve turning and decrease input forces, then rock on!

You hit the head on the nail powerzone.

This is meant to increase turning with less input on the bar. By no means to replace a depwoerable steup. Putting the finishing touches on today and will see how well it works.

Looks like you will be flying 1m imp tommarrow at ivanpah, some serious wind coming your way..........aj

Right on the head, most larger fixed bridal kites need a fair bit of brake to get them turned around, it's the main reason they get such bad reviews when flying on a bar. ATB'ers like the bar to have a free hand for board off tricks and such. So it seemed relevant to have a bar setup that would allow the kite to turn sharply while being on a bar.

As for fixed bridal kites dropping you, I've gotten decent float out of my 7.5m and 9m foils, the 13m has a stupid amount of float, just need to start redirecting the kite nice and early, like when you leave the ground.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pablo the 13m has a stupid amount of float, .

I had to reread this then verify based on your signature. A 13m fixed bridle kite :wow: That's big:o

The "13 cent" is somewhat famous around here. It's a beast ! I don't even think Pab's even has pulley handles on it. It scares me :wow:

The Cross over bar isn't meant to mock depower. It DOES add adjustable braking. Without it I find foils are pigs on a bar. No effective braking. With it I can do a long powered, no brake turn or crank the bar and loop the kite with max break and ease. I like riding on the bar. Especially standing up. It lets you run with one hand and it frees me from those Gawd awfull kite killers ! + I learned on a bar so it feels more natural to me.

It may not be for everyone ( Pab's has stuck with handles ) but if you have a bar kicking around it's cheap and easy to give it a try.

Although I'm not all that qualified I think the key to jumping with a fixed bridle is to keep it flying. The blades and such may well be big air kites but I don't think that any fixed bridle can compete with depower ( flysurfer, ozone, P.L. and such ) for float + safety.

I think that most bridles on fixed bridle kites can be RE-worked and set up with depower. That is completely different and FAR more complicated. I haven't heard of how they work after re-strung from anyone though ?

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc Quote: Originally posted by Pablo the 13m has a stupid amount of float, . I had to reread this then verify based on your signature. A 13m fixed bridle kite :wow: That's big:o

Yup, often reffered to the big yellow bus up these ways, proper name, 13m Century. I usually ride it in anywhere from 4mph up to about 14mph max. By 6mph she's pulling like a bus, by 8mph I can get some serious air with it. Currently I'm flying it on a version of JEllis's famous pulley handles. I like to fly my 9m Buster I on the pulley bar, nice combo for the ATB's and just works really well with the Busters. I sold the bar to a buddy though and just haven't gotten around to making up another one.

The 13m's been well loved, but probably will be up for sale soon, once my 15.4m Combat gets here.:evil:

Well I tried out the crossover setup on my 5.5 PKD Buster and it was a total blast! I love the feeling of a bar but am not keen on depower as I like control, as in when I want to be hooked in or not. The crossover setup offers the best of both worlds (bar and handles). I have always flown handles but have to admit I am very impressed with the control in turning this setup offers. It's by no means a replacement for de-power or handles,but for those who like to decide when to hook in and are looking for a handles and de-power alternative (again,talking about turning ablility here), look no further.

Kudos to pablo for such a fine rigging setup. Now if I could only see some handle pulley setups...........

For Jon's pulley handles take a look here:

http://www.kitebuggyspeedshop.com/accessories.htm


The thing I like about the crossover bar is that it doesn't take away the kites low wind performance, so it'll still fly in whatever low wind. To be honest with you though, I didn't invent it. I got the design from a mad hatter overseas.

Well it takes an honest guy to give the credit to some guy you met some time ago and dont even remember his name. I was flying my 5.5 buster in 3-4 mph winds yesterday after the winds died down and was suprised at how well the kite flew in low winds on this setup.

I was taking a look at that handle pulley setup, and pardon my ignorance, but I have a question for it as well. Is the strop that runs between the handles fixed or does it slide through the top of the handle?

Thanks again for the setup pablo, I am loving it.

15.4m :wow: Fixed bridle :o that has to = 2
about 21m lei :?:
On LAND :!:


Look out Vancouver! The big yellow bus is leaving and a Freight Train is moving in ! :cool2:

Ewww ! I'm scared already :smug:

Something I intend to prove to myself next time out cruising on the bay is that when hooked in I should be able to use my free hand to tweek my safety line to add brake / second gear by pulling back in the window ?

I don't understand the benefit of the pulley handles at that link http://www.kitebuggyspeedshop.com/accessories.htm

I thought it was going to be a crossover type setup but it doesn't appear to be. Right brake is on a pulley fastened to the right power line, how does the pulley make a difference in that case? The power leader must be fixed in place with knot inside the handle so how much through can that really add to the brakes??

I might have to put my blade on a crossover bar. Seems simple enough but I do like handles. How much fiddling went in to determining where to put the lower pulley in order to control how much brake is applied?

not much at all b-roc. just tie them as close to the power leader as you can. Make sure your brake lines are underneath your power lines. I like the setup so much I am going to put it on my other bar too.

I setup a pair of handles on a pulleys today like the attachment above. On had a couple of min to fly it and as my brakes were REALLY slack I can't give to much opinon, but it did however still manage to take tension (though not much) on my brake lines with out having to point the top of my handles at the kite. Will try again tommorow with tighter brake lines if I find the time.

Quote:

Originally posted by B-Roc I don't understand the benefit of the pulley handles at that link http://www.kitebuggyspeedshop.com/accessories.htm

Look at what will happen when you put on the brakes. It is a classic block and tackle system with increased purchase. It is like power steering. Your brake inputs are amplified, the amount of which is determined by where you put the brake line lead on the series of knots on the power line ledaer. Movig it forward makes the triangle larger and the movement of the hypotenuse (brake line) greater.

Very clever, mechanically. But I have always had enough throw in my wrists to spin a kite. Maybe I should try it :-)

The pulley handles will increase the throw of your brake movements at the expense of larger forces at the brake end of the handle.

By the look of the pic and where the brake line is ending on the power line, you'd be about at 1:1 when the brakes are totally out (off) and 1:2 with the brakes totally in (any additional throw at the handle would take in double the brake line but the load at the barke handle end is diuble the brakeline tension). But there would also be a commensurate decrease in the power line tension.

I'd try them, but I've often had times wrestling the brakes in on an overpowered kites from 3.5 -7 M where the last thing I wanted was more force on the brake end of the handles. Maybe I need to build up my hand and wrist strength...

Pablo, think the set-up would snap Flexifoil long handles? Would aluminum be better?

krumly

Well thanks to a tip from corey, whenever I have trouble landing when I am overpowered I fly to edge and try to land normally. If that fails then I fly to edge again, if necessary, and I put both handles together while stretching my freehand out to grab a handful of brake line and pulling in, thus rendering the kite a flapping rag/sheet in the wind. It may luff and take it's time getting down, spin around once or twice,but it will and safely.

As corey expained it to me, you are basically doing the same thing kite killers do without relinquishing the control of the kite to something else. If this fails, then just let go (assuming you are clear downwind), instead of now trying to get kite killers off. Tried it today with the handle/pulley setup and had no problems.

I think this pulley setup will be invaluable riding toeside on a landboard underpowered, as working the handles over your shoulder can be awkward. Increased brake input with less wrist movement would definitely be a bonus.

Also if you are the type that likes to fly all power lines with lots of slack in the brakes, then this is a nice setup as you can leave the lines really slack but still use them when you want to without having to point the top of the handle at the kite.

[Snowbird] : "I think that most bridles on fixed bridle kites can be RE-worked and set up with depower. That is completely different and FAR more complicated. I haven't heard of how they work after re-strung from anyone though ? "

you're right snowbird, the bridles can be RE-worked.

the kites i've modded from fixed bridle to de-powerable dynamic bridles work as good on the low end, better on the top end (of course), and overall much funner. the sheeting bar can be swapped out for handles or regular 2-line bar any time.

most recently, I modded an Ozone Little Devil 7.5m to sheetable depower and we've taken that kite out in 22mph winds. very safe, very stable, very fun. great floaty jumps, just pull the bar in and enjoy the ride.

with a pulley/mixer system, the kite is steered by pulling progressively on the A,B,C,D lines. therefore the whole side of the kite is stalled to steer not just the brake bridles. this will improve the turning radius compared to a non-sheetable bar.

U2U me for more info.....

Thanks Powerzone !
I'm aware of the way to mod my existing fixed bridles. I also feel that depower is a better way to go but I think I'll keep them as they are for now. For Depower on land I have my P.L. + Phsyco 2 and will probably look for something similar for bigger winds.
Presently I'm finding the 7, 4.5 and 3 combination get me out on all but the lowest wind days. The 7 bullet kicks in pretty early with my low weight. I'm getting very familiar with them and think that familiarity is key at my stage. I need to know my kites so I can work on my riding skills and feel I'm at a good spot that way right now. It's a nice feeling, being happy and familiar with your Quiver ! Looking forward to getting depower worked out on the phsyco though.
Seems we have a 15.4m Combat coming to town that should make the super low winds entertaining around here. :duh:

By the way . The handles you added when you did the FDS upgrade are the Cherry on the cake ! Still haven't had wind to fly / drop it yet to try the FDS but those handles came in SO handy when trying to reverse launch the other day. SWEET ! Thanks again ! :cool2:

First off, I know the fellow who designed the bar quite well, but out of respect for his time I figured I'd keep quite about who it is and answer as many questions I can myself. I ask him when I get stumped. The guy's a genious, he knows who he is and he knows that I appreciate his efforts. That is enough.

As for the handles, anyone who would rather fly off straight handles has never flown a large foil. Something in the 7m and smaller range isn't bad, but for something like my 13m Cent, using the proper size handles in a buggy causes interference with stuff like, oh say the ground, rear tires, axle, buggy, pot belly. By using the pulley handles, you can run average lenght handles instead of the uber long ones. The force to apply them is almost the same, you're either fighting more force with the pulley, or more force with the long handles. I also find with the big kites that my hands never stay on the top of the handles, usually keep hooked in to a snatch block/QR setup, hands stay under the flying lines, when I turn the kite I start by going all the way to the lock on the strop, then slide my hand down the handle and pull hard on the brake end of the handle. Quite often I end up with one handle swinging in the wind and one hand on the other handle, free hand is holding on to the upwind siderail of the buggy. Set the kite so it's turning real slowly towards the ground and use the brake to do the fine steering.

Why the 15.4m? Well, I know a fellow that has a 16m foil that I'm determined to keep up with in low winds, hoping to pass him one of these days. Of course having the gear and having the ability are two seperate things.

Well Pablo, please pass on my thanks and gratitude to that fellow for sharing with you such a neat setup. It's very easy to get going and easily could of been a killer gem of a secret to keep to himself but instead he shared it with you to pass along to others looking for new/exciting ways to fly. So please offer my thanks. I am so pleased with the results I have setup my smaller bar to crossover too.

Joe

Quote:

I am so pleased with the results I have setup my smaller bar to crossover too. Joe

Please let me know how that works out. I have a smaller bar I was thinkng of trying on the 3m. If for no other reason, I found people learn a lot easier on a bar and I usually pass off the 3 for that. I loved the bar on my old 3m JoJo but it was 3 line so no effective brake control !!!