Firstly, yes I know these are three different things, and with my being relatively new to the buggy, I'm not there yet. I'm more thinking and looking for down the road...

I'm wondering if anyone sells a premade buggy seat-belt or hotwire setup? And for that matter if bigkid is still selling his AQR? I'm not debating jumping yet, more just being held in a bit better while doing ground tricks.

I'm leaning more towards a seatbelt setup than hotwire for that matter. My current thought is to use the waist and crotch straps from a retired racing harness.

The advantage of this is that they're already designed to be looped around poles (or bolt on, but I'll stick to the looping), and I can get one for free from the local track, as racers have to retire theirs every year/two years.

Any opinions or thoughts?

I can't tell from picture, is there a quick release where it all comes together?

Don't know if bigkid aqr would work because your a$s has to leave seat to be deployed which is opposite of hotwire or seatbelted in

It seems carl and others in europe go for the 3 point seatbelt to hold them in buggy but wear harness for attaching kite.

my simple 2 strap hotwire really shines over bumpy ground and holding more power down.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Don't know if bigkid aqr would work because your a$s has to leave seat to be deployed which is opposite of hotwire or seatbelted in

HaHa, your a$$ only has to leave the seat a couple inches. Unless you want more.
This all depends on what you want to do in or out of the buggy.Progressive Industries SSP-50X Portable RV Surge Protector
Can't use the hot wire in lite to no wind. You have to hot launch let kite.
Kite harnesses are for kites, other styles are for other activities, rock climbing, fall protection, race car driving, etc. somehow you have to fix the hardest to a solid object.
My AQR is for those that don't want to get hurt.
In any decision you make, they all have pro's and con's. I know for a fact that an AQR will give my loved ones the reasurance I will be able to drive home after a day of buggy riding no mater what wind, kite size, area or unknown circumstance that could possibly arise.

i see where your coming from here...gotta admit race car belt does make some sense
the anti-sub might be overkill??...yes on the quick release

for what it's worth. I wouldn't consider using a fixed bridle with a hotwire. I also wouldn't consider using a fixed bridle without a bigkid aqr.

I hotwire with peak and stars which are much much more friendly than even a low ar fixed bridle. with that said it's still not without risk.

Here's a few pro's and con's I've noticed when using either seatbelt or hotwire. I used to use the seatbelt pretty regularly till I put the Vmax on my head then went back to not being hooked in. Sometime later after using the Nasa Stars a lot, I tried hotwiring to eliminate the big side pull on my harness for long runs - works brilliantly. I don't use it all the time and I only use it with kites that generally are not lifty and pretty docile.

Possibly best of all are the buggy seats like those in the Libre Majestic. Apexx Extreme and GT rapid that allow you to lock yourself in with a bit of leg pressure but can release you if you relax.

If you go fixed bridle, make sure you run a quick release on it. I don't have any problem hot launching in light wind with the hotwire - I can push the buggy backwards a bit for some extra tension. If you launch from the buggy, make sure the buggy is nearly facing the kite.

Seatbelt.


Advantages: Don't have to be in the buggy to launch.
Easy to fasten up (or should be) and simple.
Prevents accidental OBE.


Disadvantage: If you turtle it, everything goes over and you end up with buggy on your head and perhaps no view of the kite. (done that).
Kite load still on harness.
If you launch outside the buggy, then get in and do your belt up, you have to shift concentration away from the kite while fiddling with belt- which
can lead to a sudden OBE. (done that, too!).

Hotwire.


Advantages: Don't need a harness.
No load on harness or body.
Great for long trips.

Disadvantages: Have to hook in while seated then launch from the buggy.
If you turtle it, same deal as above.
Fiddly to hook up depending on how you rig it.
Ability to 'feel' what the kite is doing is reduced......or different, you get used to it. But you don't feel the power in the same way and can suddenly find yourself on two wheels.

AQR.


never used one so this is my best guess!

Advantages: Best safety by far.

Disadvantages: Load still on harness.

I would deffo NOT use that seat belt. HUGE MISTAKE. A hot wire is not so bad, but I would not use it with a buggy that doesn't weigh close to 100lbs. I personally think Jeff's rig is the bomb. But I still fly hotwired,but only in stable , laminar wind coming onshore. If it is Janky wind or subject to gusts I will just use my harness. And those that have known me a while, know that I did flip my 131 lb. buggy while hotwired and broke my shoulder to the point of needing surgery to repair. However, It was not the wind but my choice of terrain. I hit a large clump of dune grass in a downloop powerslide and flipped. But like I said ,it was entirely my poor choice of terrain.

Here's the video https://vimeo.com/16678110

John as I understand the AQR ,it lets it all go . No load on harness.

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

I would deffo NOT use that seat belt. HUGE MISTAKE. A hot wire is not so bad, but I would not use it with a buggy that doesn't weigh close to 100lbs. I personally think Jeff's rig is the bomb. But I still fly hotwired,but only in stable , laminar wind coming onshore. If it is Janky wind or subject to gusts I will just use my harness. And those that have known me a while, know that I did flip my 131 lb. buggy while hotwired and broke my shoulder to the point of needing surgery to repair. However, It was not the wind but my choice of terrain. I hit a large clump of dune grass in a downloop powerslide and flipped. But like I said ,it was entirely my poor choice of terrain. Here's the video https://vimeo.com/16678110

I use hotwire on a lightweight pl buggy. 28 lbs I think. However, I weigh 235 so I've got that going for me.

Good thing Sean, if you weighed 125 it would be sketchy at best.

wider axle can help some though.

Volock, I haven't tried using harness then using seatbelt. Seems like to many things but I could be totally wrong. I'm sure you saw my latest hotwire set up. 2 straps straight across attached to rails. I think Donnie's is similar. I tried a 3 strap set up and didn't care for it. 2 short straps to each siderail keeps the tow point low and close to body. You want tow point as low and close and tight as possible to keep cog low. When I was on my dirt site, I could whip the kite around and slide with impunity with no discomfort at all. It was really cool. dry grass on bumpy ground I have to be a little more mindful of flipping. I view having a light buggy as both advantage and disadvantage with hotwire. Maybe more likely to turtle (which I haven't yet. must not be trying hard enough) but less damaging to you when it does then heavy buggy. However, my point of view is much narrower than most since I only have experience with one type of buggy.

Also, I still go back and forth between hotwire and harness. Nice having variety. btw, the hotwire doesn't interfere when not in use and riding with harness so straps can remain

I forgot to mention. When chicken loop released, kite is free from buggy and your free from both entirely. My leash is attached to buggy.

Some good reading here. http://popeyethewelder.com/kite-buggy-questions-and-answers/...

Thanks for the response everyone, yeah there's a lot of opinions and varying information on hotwiring and seat belts... And an infuriating little in terms of pictures/up close of those free-styling and their seat belts. The lack of commercially available solutions has me puzzled, as it can't all come down to liability... I've crawled through about every post here that has seat belt or hotwire mentioned, everything on Popeye's site, and plenty of threads other places. I'll get through more detailed responses tomorrow...

I can't see hotwiring with my wind conditions and normal flying spots, regardless of Depower or FB. My real debate is currently whether to go with a seat belt or not, and what the current common solutions for one are, given the lack of commercially available. I want to leave my option open somewhat with what I decide for a seat belt setup, so that I might convert to hotwire in the future if I wanted to try it (say NABX or a nice clean beach wind I'm constantly lied to about existing). I'm definitely planning on figuring out a seat belt setup of some sort, and I just had to have a buggy that's not very popular, so it's harder to directly steal ideas.

As for the race harness, those are the actual harnesses a local go-kart place uses, and I have friends who race regularly. The harnesses can't be used to race after so long, and so they destroy the buckle mechanism, and throw out the straps (which are each date labeled for certification). I can go grab the used straps for free, which are straps that are already designed to support a large load (and dynamic shock), and to loop around a pole for fitment anyway, so it's fairly close to off the rack. My thought was to use a Wichard as the closure mechanism. Basically they destroy from ever using the strap and buckle on the right hand side, then just toss the rest. Here's a closeup:

My thought was it was hardware and straps closer to being designed for the use we're going for.

As to turtling, my buggy isn't light, around 75-80lbs, and I've managed to flip it twice so far, luckily without any real injury (I broke my glasses one of the times, and got a small scratch on my forehead from them getting stuck at my helmet). Both times I've flipped the buggy hasn't really moved off of me. One was while stopped, pointed upwind (literally about to climb out, one foot off the pegs), and a gust of wind came at about 90 degrees from where it had been, so instead of a side window kite landing, I got pulled over the side. The other was my own fault, flying a friend's kite (HQ Montana) and when it went to lift me, I screwed up. I feel like I slide around a bit more than I want in the upwards direction when doing some moves, so am debating the seat belt for feeling more secure/like I stay in one place doing those at speed. I mostly fly on grass (with a couple abrupt pavement strips in the middle), and so end up needing a bit more power to slide out than I would sand. I'm not too afraid of the buggy on top of me, I still way about 3x what it does, and from my experience upside down, the backrest and then my helmet basically mean I'm more under it than it resting on me. Funny enough, I never feel like I'm going to pop out when I tried the Deadman's turn.

BigKid: Was wondering if there's anything you'd change or like different than the last time you posted your AQR setup? I like the idea of it, and definitely would prefer to error on the cautious side of more safety equipment.

John Holgate: Well put. I usually launch while in the buggy, and have had a few more OBEs than I'd like, despite not using lifty kites. I seem to be able to hold a good amount of side load, but any big bump or upward lift, and I'm out of there. I tried angling the side rails in more, but couldn't get it usable to help with the issue. Definitely thinking seatbelt to help hold me in place better in terms of upward OBEs (knock on wood, I've not done the one out the back of the buggy yet). I think the actual issue partially lies in seat depth, but I end up hitting ground too much if I lower it much (which I know can be solved by taller wheels, though mine aren't tiny as it is)

Ssayre - I have followed your build and comments on it. I had concerns as to the dynamic shock load onto the original straps (which given what you replaced it with, is withdrawn). I'm leaning toward three strap as it's easier to have and not use, then want and not have. From reading RideLikeAGirl's stuff, she suggests jumps and certain moves are easier to learn on a 3 point, before going back to 2 (and more stable/less likely to have an extra axis of rotation).

WeldNGod: I have to defer to your experience, as you're much more so than me. I actually was thinking of that very linked video before posting this... However I was staring at video/picture of someone in a stopped buggy hit by a huge gust of wind, that got rolled more than once, who was hotwired. Whole thing happened so fast, I had to slow it down to figure out what happened, can't imagine having any time to react being in the bug.

I'm more than willing to take any more input. I'm not planning on making a decision or trying anything anytime soon (in the next couple months for sure). Not until I'm with cleaner wind, or have more hours in my buggy (or ideally both).

Volock,
I spent over 2 years and thousands of $$ to address the issue of preventing any OBE in the future. I have put my oldest son through many trips into the garage ceiling at the business end of a high speed winch while testing dozens of quick release ideas. We did the hot wire idea and a few other stay in the buggy ideas and none of them guaranteed I wouldn't get hurt. Due to the extent of severity of damage to my body, and being so close to death because of the injury, my wife would not allow me to go out in any way and fly a kite let alone sit in the buggy. The only way I could go out again and play, was to guarantee that I would be able to drive home afterwards.
Would I change anything about my AQR setup? Nope, I can say with out any doubt whatsoever, I will never be hurt in or out of the buggy again.

Volock ,exactly what is it you wish to do? I don't recommend buggy jumping at all, especially a commercially available ones.As they are not built for that at all. Now when you are sponsored by PL you don't have to worry cause I'm sure they get one heck of a discount on them.
If you are in janky wind you don't want to be secured in the buggy.In fact ,I would fly by fingertips so if I get gusted ,it snatches it from my grip. I feel you are preparing a recipe for disaster. Sounds to me like you need to just learn in a harness. And you would be right, when the fecal matter hits the rotary device. THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO. It's over before you can even drop the handles.
My hotwire set-up is made from 3/16" dyneema line from west marine. I eye spliced each end. On one end is a stainless ring. I double choke around the siderails and connect a torsion wichard to a holt allen clam style block which the strop runs through. Whatever you choose to do,fly safe.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

It seems carl and others in europe go for the 3 point seatbelt to hold them in buggy but wear harness for attaching kite.

Something you have to remember is these folks fly in laminar wind on a huge beach. It is much safer to be belted in there. In non-laminar wind it is going to be risky.

"My hotwire set-up is made from 3/16" dyneema line from west marine."

Does your west marine stock stock dyneema or did you order from them? Our local west marine does not stock dyneema, only the polyester marine rope in various thickness. Disappointing because there are lots of different projects I do spur of the moment and would like to have dyneema available without having to order.

Wow, ours has all that is in the catalog .Red,green,blue,grey,all sizes. But I live in the Norfolk/Va. Beach area. There is more water than land around here ,and millions of boats of all types. I'm sure that makes the difference.

Sean, sounds like you are near an Ill-equipped West Marine. Mine in SLC has dyneema on spools in the back of the store. Probably not a lot of colors but at least a couple of sizes.

I want to learn how to make neat loops and ends. I've seen it done on video and have seen the tools but I just haven't taken the plunge.

I wouldn't think West Marine is the only place to get dyneema. Have you checked around? Agreed it would be a pain in the seat meat to have to mail order. Good luck!

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

"My hotwire set-up is made from 3/16" dyneema line from west marine." Does your west marine stock stock dyneema or did you order from them? Our local west marine does not stock dyneema, only the polyester marine rope in various thickness. Disappointing because there are lots of different projects I do spur of the moment and would like to have dyneema available without having to order.

What is wrong w/ online order. You could order it today and I bet by Fri. it would be in your mailbox . Or you could wait for infinity for your store to get it. I'm not seeing the logic here.

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/samson-rope--amsteel-blue-dyne...

3/16" $1.08 a ft.

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

Volock, I spent over 2 years and thousands of $$ to address the issue of preventing any OBE in the future. I have put my oldest son through many trips into the garage ceiling at the business end of a high speed winch while testing dozens of quick release ideas. We did the hot wire idea and a few other stay in the buggy ideas and none of them guaranteed I wouldn't get hurt. Due to the extent of severity of damage to my body, and being so close to death because of the injury, my wife would not allow me to go out in any way and fly a kite let alone sit in the buggy. The only way I could go out again and play, was to guarantee that I would be able to drive home afterwards. Would I change anything about my AQR setup? Nope, I can say with out any doubt whatsoever, I will never be hurt in or out of the buggy again.

Thanks. I know you spent a lot of time developing it and testing ideas. I figured I'd ask, as sometimes those small tweaks that happen over time, don't always get posted by people. I can't imagine volunteering to let my dad send me into the garage ceiling with a high speed winch, so more power and credit to your son. Thanks for the useful info.

http://www.murrays.com/K-L.html another place I have shopped @

Quote: Originally posted by WELDNGOD

What is wrong w/ online order. You could order it today and I bet by Fri. it would be in your mailbox . Or you could wait for infinity for your store to get it. I'm not seeing the logic here.

I admit, there is no logic in waiting on a local source that's never going to happen. I need to just order from west marine. I've been on their site and just can't bring myself to order it. I would probably have already purchased some for $2 per foot if the local store had it just on an impulse buy. Ordering is much more deliberate and planned. I'm not very good at that. :D

We have a massive West Marine just down the road. Love that place. Was nice coming out with everything needed for the bigkid AQR

Still many thanks for your time and efforts on developing that Jeff!!!

I had my first real power kite session today since my accident a couple of weeks ago. I hotwired my buggy and flew an 8m Ozone Access V6 with Re-Ride. I was a tad underpowered but that was just fine for my first time back in the saddle and my first time hotwiring.

As others have discussed, hotwiring seems to have its pluses and minuses. I'm netting out after this first session strongly in the pluses > minuses by a long shot. I loved not having to wear a harness and having the load on the buggy instead of on me (other than through my arms keeping the DP bar pulled in which is pretty light force all in all). One minus (or maybe just something I've got to get used to) is that the pull now comes from up on the rail so it seems a touch easier to get tipped over towards the kite if you are sideways to the wind and get a strong increase in kite power. No big deal, that, just nudge the nose downwind and everything gets back in line. I did lift my upwind back wheel twice but it was pretty mellow.

The Re-Ride system made ending the session a piece of cake! When I wanted to finish I just turned the buggy upwind to roll to a stop and then manually pulled the 5th line in through the chicken loop until the kite crumpled to the ground. Nice!

I tossed a couple of pictures of V-1.0 Windstruck hotwiring below. I've already refined my setup since these pictures and will continue to tweak things until I feel dialed in. This set up was more or less "proof of concept" rigging.

Great thanks is extended to our great PKF "family" for all the good hotwiring discussion and photos that steered me in this new direction. :karate:



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Hey Bro, I want you to watch this https://vimeo.com/16678110 I was hotwired.... My buggy has a 5 ft. axle and weighs 131 pounds... I was out of work for 5 months... Had a surgery to repair the humeral head in my shoulder. Take it real careful

Don't listen to wg :evil:

Just kidding of course but I really like Hotwire. It's a blast and a new way of riding. Worth doing just for the experience IMO. It picks up your back wheel because you can hold more power. Placement front to back is critical but if it's picking up your back wheel and not wanting to slide the front around than it sounds like you have it in a good position. My rear end usually slides before picking up a wheel. Maybe it's your big foots making your center of gravity a little higher than mine. Either I'm always pumped to see somebody trying it.

I consider safer in SOME ways. since the harness is t pulling me to the side, I feel like I can counter weight better with my body and have much better control over steering.

Also try and keep your tow point as tight to you and low as possible. That keeps thing from getting as tippy as well.

Yep what WG said^^^^^
I did the hot wire thing but decided it was bad enough with my 225 lbs crashing to the beach but add another 124lbs for the buggy?

What changed my mind was the trip over a soccer goal with me and the buggy as I slid sideways into a 55 gallon garbage can and then slid backwards into the other soccer goal before the kite got stuck on the light post.