A question for experienced kiters or people that have flown many different brands and types of kites. What's the most powerful branded depower kite out there right now between the offerings of flysurfer, HQ kites and Ozone kites. I want to exclude the peak series and Nasa stars kites at this time . I'm really looking to figure out per square M which kite packs the most punch in its own class let's say the high aspect ratio kites and the low aspect more grunty types or lets say the closed cell foils . I've had the oportnity to fly alot of kites from all the manufacturers but not sure which kite comes out a clear winner. Example between the high aspect ratio kites I've flown the flysurfer speed, ozone frenzy, hq montana. The all seemed to be very similar in power and depower with the flysurfer seeming to have the best depower and the hq Montana seeming to have the most power in my opinion per square M. Any opinions on the lower aspect ratio grunty kites and closed cell foils (ex speed, matrix 2, unity) will be greatly appreciated. As far as I can see the hq apex also came out a winner between itself and the ozone access as far as power per M but I have not flown flysurfer s outlaw which I think is their lower aspect foil. So may be someone who has flown all 3 can chime in I'm really looking for a clear winner in each category. Also how do the new race kites fear in their category for example the chronic vs the sonic vs zeekai Now bear in mind I'm just interested in POWER per square M and DEPOWER capabilities and that's it. Thanks to all in advsnce who replied

"chronic vs the sonic vs zeekai"

Chronic will take you higher than the others mentioned or did you mean Chrono? :D

If I had the loot and the desire to go DP,I would get the FS SONIC. But that will never happen .
FB for life!

yea I meant chrono. haha

First we have to redefine what one would consider High AR kites. These days The Speed is not a high AR wing. And Kites like the Frenzy and Montana have never been and still are not. They are higher AR than their less freestyle/less lifty touring based counter parts like the Access and Apex but the dont come close to the AR of Sonics,Chrono 1 or R1.

And we must remember that many ARs vary for a given size. The Sonic for example is an AR 7 in the 18m but lower in the 9m. Or the Access V6 which is higher ar in the larger sizes. And strangely enough I think the Frenzy V10 9m has the highest AR in the current Frenzy line up.

Low AR kites: Access, Apex,Viron.( all between AR 3-4+)

Medium AR: (in ascending AR order),Frenzy, Matrixx 2, Montana, Summit.(AR 4+-5+)

Medium/High AR: (ascending AR order) Speed 4, Chrono 2.(AR 5+-6+)

High AR: (in order of AR descending) R1, Chrono 1, Sonic, Zeekai. (AR 6+-7+)

IMO, AR is less an indicator of raw power and more an indicator of traits like upwind ability, light wind performance, glide etc. Projected area (PA) is more an indicator of raw power. The amount of sail doing work. Comparing PA is a more accurate comparison between given kite models than simply square meters.

I'm not sure how one could quantify "most powerful". You have to factor in so many variables, the most elusive being pilot skill. In what wind range, location,surface, rider weight or skill level? For a simple example an Ozone R1 17m is going to out perform a Matrixx 2 18m in 4kts. It will be faster, build better apparent (resulting in more power) and go up wind better. But in high winds we find smaller size race kites seem powerful initially but in the right circumstances will be more stall prone if edged against to hard while lower AR wings like a Matrixx will simply generate more and more grunt which can be translated into forward speed and power in the right situation.

If comparing kites within the same species. Like the R1 and the Sonic for example. The R1 delivers (IMO) more power initially. But the Sonic, once to a certain wing speed, seems to go turbo charged and produces the same if not more power. And also seems a bit more lifty which in the right hands and in the right position in the sky, can equate to even more power. But that doesn't automatically mean its more powerful.

I don't think there's a clear answer. Like asking "what's the best song ever?"," what's better 9mm or .45" or "Starbucks or Dunkin" (who are we kidding its clearly Dunks followed closely by Timmy Horton's). I think you will find that most pilots grouped by respective skill levels, if given a sampling of kites will have similar opinions and conclusions about each kite. The variations in opinion being driven by thier personal tastes and riding styles. But wildly different opinions between the expert groups vs. beginner or intermediates. Any kite can only offer the perfomance that the pilot can get out of it.

I don't think there is a clearly definable answer.

Yes I realise its really a difficult question to answer and I hope to stay away from a detailed scientific analaysis of the kites and more just of peoples personal feeling and and opinions for the kites . I know there is a big variation nowadays as far as aspect ratio is concerned but I wanted to keep it simple that's why I set up the classes as low aspect (AR<4.3), high aspect and race kites. A good way I would measure each kite would be for example if somone handed me a kite and I took it and threw it around in the sky for 15 mins then took it on the board or buggy or whatever for another 15 mins. What would be my impression of the kite vs another kite in the same class and exact size. I think we have all done this and that's wht I'm looking for as usually u can tell in a few mins if this kite performs significantly different to another kite u may have. I know its good to take at least 2 or 3 sessions on a kite but like I said I'm not looking for a detailed scientific analysis. For instance I flew a HQ montana 10m back to back with a 10m speed 4 and can say that the montana felt more powerfull although the speed seemed much more quick and sporty. but in this case the winner would be the HQ montana. another example is I have handed an 2015 ozone access 8m to a friend that flew a 7.5m apex to try for a few minutes and immediately he said it felt a lot less powerfull even remarked he didn't like the kite. well again for my puposes I would say the apex is more powerfull and I would have to agree after also flying both .

So in a nutshell you are asking what peoples first impressions of a given kite vs. another given kite are as opposed to which is the most powerful kite in production.

Still too inconclusive and subjective. There are very few people in this world who's opinion I would trust let alone after 15minutes flight time. Many kites involve some level of learning curve to really get the best performance out of them. Some people are too impatient, too lazy or lack the experience needed to fly some kites proficiently right from the start. And unfortunately they seem to be the ones who make the biggest noise about kite XYZ when it doesnt work for them as they feel it should. People will spout off about bad experiences more often than they do about good.

When someone demos a kite with us they tend to do it for several hours. And they have the benefit of having us on hand to walk them through things and help them get the most out of the kite. Which helps considerably when it comes to them deciding how good a fit the kite is for them.

Short term first impressions arent worth a whole lot IMO. Even when we do a first impressions review, like we did on the Zeekai recently, we do it based on what weve witnessed over many hours of flight time in a variety of wind conditions. And even then I find myself apprehensive doing preliminary reviews as they still don't offer the full picture. But we eventually follow up with a long term usage review.

The only certain truth is this. All kites are equally powerful when in a bag.

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky

The only certain truth is this. All kites are equally powerful when in a bag.

Unless it's a real backpack as a bag and not just a drawstring one... Those drawstring bags generate some real speed flying empty across the field as you chase them.

Feyd I appreciate your response but thyre not very helpful, I specifically said I don't want a detailed analytical analysis of the kites just people that flew competing kites and their opinions. Don't make the topic out to more than it is, I think most people if given 2 kites to fly back to back for half an hour can kind of figure out which one feels better than the other as far as power and performance is concerned , its basic human reasoning process and I gave 2 clear examples of what I was looking for thanks.

They may not be helpful to you but they may be helpful to someone looking for more than subjective opinions based on a few minutes flight time. But it's your thread and K.I.S.S. is the theme.

Quote: Originally posted by volock

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky   The only certain truth is this. All kites are equally powerful when in a bag. Unless it's a real backpack as a bag and not just a drawstring one... Those drawstring bags generate some real speed flying empty across the field as you chase them.

Ha! True.
I just noticed your sig. You have some nice toys.

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky

Quote: Originally posted by volock   Quote: Originally posted by RedSky   The only certain truth is this. All kites are equally powerful when in a bag. Unless it's a real backpack as a bag and not just a drawstring one... Those drawstring bags generate some real speed flying empty across the field as you chase them. Ha! True. I just noticed your sig. You have some nice toys.

Sorry for the thread drift...

Thanks RedSky... And I wish the bag think was a joke, I did the 200yd dash Saturday chasing down the Brooza bag when it slipped from my hands, and had to chase the Little Devil bag once before. Luckily the backpacks just don't catch air.

Quote: Originally posted by windrider1

...I specifically said I don't want a detailed analytical analysis...

Unfortunately, when talking about the "most powerful kite" it's kind of a detailed, technical thing. If we are to talk about the most powerful engine, we talk horsepower and torque numbers, not how it feels to drive the car. When we are talking kites, we can talk about projected area and Lift/Drag ratio (a spec which is rarely published, unfortunately, though it's often related to AR).

L/D affects the liftiness, upwind ability and window size of kites. The two ends of the spectrum are race kites with high L/D and NPWs with low L/D.
I took my Apex 7m and flew it back to back with my NPW 7M a week or so ago. The NPW feels much more "powerful" as its high drag makes it sit deep and pull hard. But the larger window of the Apex gives it better upwind performance and a higher top speed, and it certainly has more power for boosting, as the NPW has none.

So, do you want big pulling power, or big lifting power, or high top speed? Different kites will win in each of these categories.

In the end, does it really matter what packs the most performance per square meter? Fly a kite that you enjoy the handling of and fly the size that develops the power level you want. From the sounds of the Access/Apex story, you like a kite with more lift and more depower. Larger depower range = same size in higher winds = more power when you pull in the bar

Quote:

well again for my puposes I would say the apex is more powerfull and I would have to agree after also flying both .

I've had both and would say that the Apex II's had better low end than the equivalent access. BUT, the Access's had better top end and depower ability - so you may change your mind about their power/performance as the wind increases. Methods v almost anything else is another good example - in the low end of the wind range, the Method will be absolutely killed by anything else leading you to think they're not a powerfull kite. Certainly not a grunty kite - but again, put them in the top end of their wind range and they shine.

I think one of the most powerful kites I've flown would be the Vapor - you wouldn't know by static flying it but once you get some apparent wind over the kite in the buggy, it's like hanging onto a rocket. While an equivalent NS2 would feel far more powerful than the Vapor if you were just static flying it in low wind, once you get them up to 'operating speed' so to speak, you'd find the tables completely reversed.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Quote: well again for my puposes I would say the apex is more powerfull and I would have to agree after also flying both . I've had both and would say that the Apex II's had better low end than the equivalent access. BUT, the Access's had better top end and depower ability - so you may change your mind about their power/performance as the wind increases.

I would agree with John on that.

i thought the topic was dead well good to see someones input. Back in the day flysurfer made some of the most powerfull foils for their given size, and i noticed they all had a lot of bridle lines compared to todays kites I wonder with all the effort on getting rid of excess bridle to reduce weight and drag if this contributed to the drop in power of some of the newer kites. bye the way the vapor should be compared to another race kite and not a nasa wing. what would u say was the most powerfull race kite u flew at operating speed.

Quote: Originally posted by John Holgate

Quote: well again for my puposes I would say the apex is more powerfull and I would have to agree after also flying both . I've had both and would say that the Apex II's had better low end than the equivalent access. BUT, the Access's had better top end and depower ability - so you may change your mind about their power/performance as the wind increases. Methods v almost anything else is another good example - in the low end of the wind range, the Method will be absolutely killed by anything else leading you to think they're not a powerfull kite. Certainly not a grunty kite - but again, put them in the top end of their wind range and they shine. I think one of the most powerful kites I've flown would be the Vapor - you wouldn't know by static flying it but once you get some apparent wind over the kite in the buggy, it's like hanging onto a rocket. While an equivalent NS2 would feel far more powerful than the Vapor if you were just static flying it in low wind, once you get them up to 'operating speed' so to speak, you'd find the tables completely reversed.

wow does anyone read, I specifically said to exclude nasa power kites. i specifically said i would like to compare kites within their own class, and third i specifically said i dont want a scientific torque ratio type of analysis just a laymans regular joe feel for the kites power and performance compared to to others of similar type. I think ill declare this topic CLOSED and dead, NO usefull answers . move on people nothing to see here. :

Quote: Originally posted by rectifier

Quote: Originally posted by windrider1   ...I specifically said I don't want a detailed analytical analysis... Unfortunately, when talking about the "most powerful kite" it's kind of a detailed, technical thing. If we are to talk about the most powerful engine, we talk horsepower and torque numbers, not how it feels to drive the car. When we are talking kites, we can talk about projected area and Lift/Drag ratio (a spec which is rarely published, unfortunately, though it's often related to AR). L/D affects the liftiness, upwind ability and window size of kites. The two ends of the spectrum are race kites with high L/D and NPWs with low L/D. I took my Apex 7m and flew it back to back with my NPW 7M a week or so ago. The NPW feels much more "powerful" as its high drag makes it sit deep and pull hard. But the larger window of the Apex gives it better upwind performance and a higher top speed, and it certainly has more power for boosting, as the NPW has none. So, do you want big pulling power, or big lifting power, or high top speed? Different kites will win in each of these categories. In the end, does it really matter what packs the most performance per square meter? Fly a kite that you enjoy the handling of and fly the size that develops the power level you want. From the sounds of the Access/Apex story, you like a kite with more lift and more depower. Larger depower range = same size in higher winds = more power when you pull in the bar

:puzzled:

narrowing to fixed bridle makes it a MUCH easier call. a race FB is gonna be the top kite ...with that in mind, perhaps ALL depower units compared would need to be flown unhooked to get a reasonable feel of what is available to produce power, otherwise it is a trim/sheeting puzzle thats difficult to put together...but "whats the most powerful kite?" since the parameters are coming into light, don montague built this 50m tube that might take the prize (not allowing cargo ship units as they are like 300m i think) though PL has 50m SYN as well, i have not seen much on it in action like this one by don
...you want power ? soak this up --> http://project.kiteboat.com

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

soak this up --> http://project.kiteboat.com

Just soaked that up. Wow! 40 sqm kite on 80m lines. That was one cool looking set up on the catamaran sort of boat by the Golden Gate Bridge. Winds were only 14-16 knots. Too cool. Thanks for the cool post!

Another really big kite was from the Windsled thread started a while back: http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=31272

yes the sled thread was informative as well , i have seen the static lift setups as well and i was trying to stay in the "dynamic" power systems, not to completely derail thread,
though i have flown all said kites in thread question(except for unity), scope too broad for definitive answer, trimmed to unhook would level the playing field considerably...though personally FS has the most sensitive , refined power for its usable range , any FS i have been on is down right frightening outside of its "usable" range. sorry for the veer , hope the "sensitvity" element (meaning kite will fire early in light air/lowspeed) falls into the power category for closed cell.

Quote: Originally posted by windrider1

Back in the day flysurfer made some of the most powerfull foils for their given size, and i noticed they all had a lot of bridle lines compared to todays kites

There's a reason this forum seems to collectively agree not to buy pre-2005.
"I got this sweet deal on Ebay for a 2004 XYZ. Is it a good first kite?"

Everyone's kites we more powerful. The F-Arc is a perfect example. IMO the most powerful ARC ever put into production. But the depow is marginal at best even with a long throw. The kite could be flown on a depow bar or handles for God's sake.

The Speed 1 is another example. I really like that kite. And as the became more advanced and equipped with better depow, for me it became less interesting. They lost the grunt and raw power. And it's not because of the bridles, its largely because of changes in PA.

I wonder where that 50m Syn is today.

I believe Naish got there first. I love the laid back attitude.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2MzMzTXoE

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky

I believe Naish got there first. I love the laid back attitude. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2MzMzTXoE

thats don, he worked for naish to design sails /kites

same guy, same kite---> http://project.kiteboat.com

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky   I believe Naish got there first. I love the laid back attitude. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2MzMzTXoE thats don, he worked for naish to design sails /kites same guy, same kite---> http://project.kiteboat.com

Oh, ok.

Quote: Originally posted by windrider1

wow does anyone read, I specifically said to exclude nasa power kites. i specifically said i would like to compare kites within their own class, and third i specifically said i dont want a scientific torque ratio type of analysis just a laymans regular joe feel for the kites power and performance compared to to others of similar type. I think ill declare this topic CLOSED and dead, NO usefull answers . move on people nothing to see here. : Quote: Originally posted by windrider1   ...I specifically said I don't want a detailed analytical analysis...

Wow; if you're going to call someone out for not reading, at least use proper grammar and punctuation.

I think that you've gotten a lot of good advice considering the subjectivity of the topic.

Wow this ended or attempted to end on a strange note. I guess you're asking a simple question and expecting a simple answer. Well here's a simple answer a 2.4m Combat is the most powerful kite in the world. It's the one that almost killed me. All the other ones are nothing to talk about.
Hope this makes it easier.

There are few simple questions
Fewer simple answers

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind"

Flexifoil Blades and Quadrifoil Competitions are probably the most powerful.